Russians, Serbs, Slavic people

[Michael G]

Careful folk - this is getting perilously near to debate

Czali - you must accept if you wish to post here that salvation comes after death , as Michael has said.

We do not presume to know who is saved and who is not - that judgement is left to God .

Exactly. We are reeemed by Christ, but we are only saved at the last judgement. I know I have been redeemed, but only God will be able to say if I have been saved.

 

[MariaRegina]

In response to "Are you saved," my priest and many other Orthodox Priests, such as Father Thomas Hopko, respond with:

I have been saved.
I am being saved.
I will be saved through the process of purification, sanctification, illumination, and theosis (through God's grace).

 

[nestoj]

God does it all. I'd be quite rude to presume what He thinks of me, let alone others.

a Slav Orthodox Christian.

 

[czali]

(Voice of Yoda) Yes, yes, to Anhelyna you listen, hmmm yes!

I think it necessary to iterate what I said before on being careful not to assume that you share common understandings of what salvation or anything else is. You must find out what the Orthodox understanding is, and to do that, you have to (temporarily, at least, lay aside your own understandings.

If you spoke of being saved in a physical and temporal sense, then this is quite acceptable - but you should specify that. You ought to be familiar with Baptist-style concepts such as "having been saved etenally on Jan 27th, 1992...", which are inconsistent with Orthodoxy.

The Baptists understanding of that actually, and as I would also see myself, is some people will say.. I was saved on such and such a date.. meaning.. that was the day they gave their life to Christ.. experienced him for the first time.. whatever, that's a broad area.. but has to fit with that general scope of a relationship with Christ. However.. it is not final.. you need to add the understanding that we are all still a work in progress, to make that work with the Baptist framework.

if you were a baptist before and never understood that 'work in progress part', the finishing and honing part,, then you weren't taught very well.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear czali:

Isn't the Baptist thought something along the line of:

Please be patient with me, God is not finished with me yet.

Actually, that thought is quite Orthodox because we are a work in progress through the grace of God. And we must struggle daily to get up after we stumble and fall into sin. We sin more than seven times per day, but God gives us the grace to keep on going and keep on struggling until the day we die in His arms.

I guess some people forget.
We are not to judge our brothers and sisters
because Christ told us not to judge.
We are to get rid of that beam in our own eye first.
Yes, it is so easy to project our faults onto others.
So those who accuse us of pride often have more pride
because they see their pride in us.

And it burns, burns, burns, like living fire, like living fire. (modifying the words of Johnny Cash).

 

[czali]

I stumble,, he picks me up.. I stumble he picks me up.. very Baptist.. the story.. of four footprints in the sand.. it was me.. and Jesus walking with me.. and then when I was old there were only 2 foot prints because he carried me...I love that.

another.. when Jesus carried the cross.. he stumbled.. and a man came from the crowd to help him.. now.. in this life.. here we are and we are asked to carry our cross.. and Jesus helps us with it when we stumble.

 

[czali]

You know what though.. I can breathe a sigh of relief.. but however things are being described here. albeit some misunderstandings of language and words here and there.. but your understanding of that, and what i have read in Greek Orthodox doctrine is the same (more or less) as my own.

I breathe a sigh of relief because most catholics, RC, believe they go to heaven when water is sprinkled on their head and they go through the motions of a few sacraments.

 

[MariaRegina]

Nm

 

[rusmeister]

The Baptists understanding of that actually, and as I would also see myself, is some people will say.. I was saved on such and such a date.. meaning.. that was the day they gave their life to Christ.. experienced him for the first time.. whatever, that's a broad area.. but has to fit with that general scope of a relationship with Christ. However.. it is not final.. you need to add the understanding that we are all still a work in progress, to make that work with the Baptist framework.

if you were a baptist before and never understood that 'work in progress part', the finishing and honing part,, then you weren't taught very well.

Hi Czali,
Baptist theology varies from group to group and church to church. NAMB, for example, just has some consensus on some important point They depend on individual exegesis of Scripture (Sola Scriptura).

There are some parts of that which I grew up in that are inconsistent with the idea of 'a work in progress' and really don't fit Orthodoxy; for example, the idea of "Once saved, always saved" (OSAS). If a person dies, they are considered to be in a definite state; if they professed salvation, then Baptists are sure that they are in heaven. It is true that they believe in striving to improve their walk with the Lord, refrain from sin, and in that sense, improve and make progress, but it does not affect their salvation, which they see only as a finished event. (It's a little soon for you to be assuming how well I was taught.)

Sola Scriptura is another one, that you yourself may accept (at least, it's the basis of Pentecostal teaching as far as I know), and this may be why you pulled out a bunch of verses that were non sequitur to us.

 

[Blackknight]

Can we cool it on the Catholic bashing? Worry about your own problems first.

 

[Michael G]

You know what though.. I can breathe a sigh of relief.. but however things are being described here. albeit some misunderstandings of language and words here and there.. but your understanding of that, and what i have read in Greek Orthodox doctrine is the same (more or less) as my own.

I breathe a sigh of relief because most catholics, RC, believe they go to heaven when water is sprinkled on their head and they go through the motions of a few sacraments.

No, they don't. Be careful to characterize an entire religion based on limited interaction with select members of that religion. I was brought up Catholic, educated Catholic and know alot of Catholics and I can honestly say I have never heard a Catholic priest teach that and I have never heard Catholics espouse that.

Let us cut the Catholic bashing. It is not becoming of a Christian to outright bash other faiths and state things that are patently false about their beliefs.

 

[Blackknight]

Yeah, that is definitely not what Catholics believe. My Dad is a Catholic and I've had many discussions with him about what the RCC teaches. You also need to remember that we were both one church for about 1000 years.

 

[Christos Anesti]

There is a sense in which we can say we are saved by baptism though. If it washs us of our sins then we are saved from those sins. If it gives us new life and we are reborn with Christ in Baptism then that is certainly a saving act of Christ. I've been saved by Christ on many occasions actually. We just can't use the word "saved" to make a presumptious statement about our place at the dread Judgement.

 

[Andrew21091]

When someone says they are saved and they know for sure they are going to heaven, then they are being deceived since they are exalting themselves as Christ said in the Gospel that those who exalt themselves will be humbled. We are to ask God constantly to save us from our sins and we have to echo the words of the Publican who cried "God be merciful to me a sinner." We shouldn't try to show off our virtues saying we fast, pray, give alms, etc and declare we are going to heaven and we are sure of it, since that sounds similar to what the Pharisee prays in the temple which Our Lord speaks about in the same parable. We always have to recognize our sinfulness and call on God for mercy since only with His help will we be able to sit at His right with the sheep but in order to have His help, we have to make an effort to lift ourselves when we fall. We have to try to lift ourselves up because if we don't then we will then find ourselves on the left with the goats. When we are ascending Golgotha, we fall constantly because what we carry is heavy and we strive so hard to make it all the way but we keep falling down because we keep missing the mark so we have to ask God for mercy and forgiveness and He will give us the strength to keep on going, keep on enduring the pain and weight of our sins. This ascent is hard and it will not happen over night but through a lifetime of repentance.

 

[Michael G]

When someone says they are saved and they know for sure they are going to heaven, then they are being deceived since they are exalting themselves as Christ said in the Gospel that those who exalt themselves will be humbled. We are to ask God constantly to save us from our sins and we have to echo the words of the Publican who cried "God be merciful to me a sinner." We shouldn't try to show off our virtues saying we fast, pray, give alms, etc and declare we are going to heaven and we are sure of it, since that sounds similar to what the Pharisee prays in the temple which Our Lord speaks about in the same parable. We always have to recognize our sinfulness and call on God for mercy since only with His help will we be able to sit at His right with the sheep but in order to have His help, we have to make an effort to lift ourselves when we fall. We have to try to lift ourselves up because if we don't then we will then find ourselves on the left with the goats. When we are ascending Golgotha, we fall constantly because what we carry is heavy and we strive so hard to make it all the way but we keep falling down because we keep missing the mark so we have to ask God for mercy and forgiveness and He will give us the strength to keep on going, keep on enduring the pain and weight of our sins. This ascent is hard and it will not happen over night but through a lifetime of repentance.

QFT