Rumors that Pope Francis will resign

TuxAme

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There's belief that this is going to become the norm. Unfortunate, but the papacy takes a greater toll these days in some ways, what with flying all around the world throughout the year. And considering that popes are generally up there in years, that makes it harder on them.
 
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gordonhooker

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It would be a shame if he did, but only he and our God know what is best for him. He is the first of the Liberation Theology Popes and I pray he will not be the last. Us Franciscans including the Anglican Franciscans like to think he is more of a Franciscan than a Jesuit, but that is not true. The Jesuits have been behind Liberation Theology and have died for it.
 
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BobRyan

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I've heard this several times recently as well.

If he retires, who would replace him?

I think they just do the same thing over again and the blow white smoke out the pipe in the Vatican.

I don't think they would have any other process
 
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BobRyan

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It would be a shame if he did, but only he and our God know what is best for him. He is the first of the Liberation Theology Popes and I pray he will not be the last. Us Franciscans including the Anglican Franciscans like to think he is more of a Franciscan than a Jesuit, but that is not true. The Jesuits have been behind Liberation Theology and have died for it.

It is hard to fathom how a Jesuit is considered a franciscan simply because he adopts the name francis as Pope.
 
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BobRyan

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There's belief that this is going to become the norm. Unfortunate, but the papacy takes a greater toll these days in some ways, what with flying all around the world throughout the year. And considering that popes are generally up there in years, that makes it harder on them.

I agree with this - being pope as a "job" is much more of an actual "Job" these days and on cannot "retire to be Pope" any longer.
 
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gordonhooker

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It is hard to fathom how a Jesuit is considered a franciscan simply because he adopts the name francis as Pope.

No one said he was a Franciscan you obviously have either:

a. read and not understood what was written, or
b. you are reading into my post a lot more then what I wrote.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I've heard this several times recently as well.

If he retires, who would replace him?
Good question. Can he name a successor or does it have to go thru the voting process.
Withe about a billion Catholics in the world, perhaps this is needed.

Papal conclave - Wikipedia

A papal conclave is a meeting of the College of Cardinals convened to elect a Bishop of Rome, also known as the Pope. The pope is considered by Roman Catholics to be the apostolic successor of Saint Peter and earthly head of the Roman Catholic Church.[1]

Concerns around political interference led to reforms after the interregnum of 1268–1271 and Pope Gregory X's decree during the Second Council of Lyons in 1274 that the cardinal electors should be locked in seclusion cum clave (Latin for "with a key") and not permitted to leave until a new Bishop of Rome had been elected.[2] Conclaves are now held in the Sistine Chapel of the Apostolic Palace.[3]

The death of the pope is verified by the Cardinal Camerlengo, or Chamberlain, who traditionally performed the task by calling out his Christian (not papal) name three times in the presence of the Master of Papal Liturgical Celebrations, and of the Cleric Prelates, Secretary and Chancellor of the Apostolic Camera.

The Cardinal Camerlengo takes possession of the Ring of the Fisherman worn by the pope; the ring, along with the papal seal, is later destroyed before the College of Cardinals. The tradition originated to avoid forgery of documents, but today merely is a symbol of the end of the pope's reign.[65][66]

During the sede vacante, as the papal vacancy is known, certain limited powers pass to the College of Cardinals, which is convoked by the Dean of the College of Cardinals. All cardinals are obliged to attend the General Congregation of Cardinals, except those whose health does not permit, or who are over eighty (but those cardinals may choose to attend if they please).

The Particular Congregation, which deals with the day-to-day matters of the Church, includes the Cardinal Camerlengo and the three Cardinal Assistants—one Cardinal-Bishop, one Cardinal-Priest and one Cardinal-Deacon—chosen by lot. Every three days, new Cardinal Assistants are chosen by lot. The Cardinal Camerlengo and Cardinal Assistants are responsible, among other things, for maintaining the election's secrecy.[67].............

Black smoke rises from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel meaning that cardinals failed to elect a new pope in the first ballot of their secret conclave at the Vatican City.[AFP]

Papal conclave: Vatican reveals the secret behind the chimney smoke

"What's older than a smoke signal? It's great that that's there and it's not one of these electronic vote things that a red or green light goes off."

"Why is a conclave so exciting?" he added. "Because we don't know what's going on there and we're not going to know until the smoke comes out."

The 2005 conclave trialled a new system of smoke production, following complaints from the previous conclave in 1978.

conclave-stove_2508696c.jpg
(Reuters)

A second stove was added to the chimney to add colouring via a flue to the smoke produced by the burned ballots.

Sadly, the complex system hardly made a difference.


xin_410402190937641285718.jpg
images
[/QUOTE]
 
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BobRyan

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It would be a shame if he did, but only he and our God know what is best for him. He is the first of the Liberation Theology Popes and I pray he will not be the last. Us Franciscans including the Anglican Franciscans like to think he is more of a Franciscan than a Jesuit, but that is not true. The Jesuits have been behind Liberation Theology and have died for it.

It is hard to fathom how a Jesuit is considered a franciscan simply because he adopts the name francis as Pope.

No one said he was a Franciscan you obviously have either:

a. read and not understood what was written, or
b. you are reading into my post a lot more then what I wrote.

interesting.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It is hard to fathom how a Jesuit is considered a franciscan simply because he adopts the name francis as Pope.
It would be a shame if he did, but only he and our God know what is best for him. He is the first of the Liberation Theology Popes and I pray he will not be the last.
Us Franciscans including the Anglican Franciscans like to think he is more of a Franciscan than a Jesuit, but that is not true. The Jesuits have been behind Liberation Theology and have died for it.
Just when I thought Christianity could not get any more confusing, up pops that.
My name is Saint Stephen.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
new2.gif
Search Wikipedia Encyclopedia:

Jesuits Franciscans

The Society of Jesus (SJ – from Latin: Societas Iesu) is a scholarly religious congregation of the Catholic Church which originated in sixteenth-century Spain. The members are called Jesuits.[2] The society is engaged in evangelization and apostolic ministry in 112 nations on six continents. Jesuits work in education (founding schools, colleges, universities, and seminaries), intellectual research, and cultural pursuits. Jesuits also give retreats, minister in hospitals and parishes, sponsor direct social ministries, and promote ecumenical dialogue.............

The Franciscans are a group of related mendicant religious orders within the Catholic Church, founded in 1209 by Saint Francis of Assisi. These orders include the Order of Friars Minor, the Order of Saint Clare, and the Third Order of Saint Francis.
These orders adhere to the teachings and spiritual disciplines of the founder and of his main associates and followers, such as Clare of Assisi, Anthony of Padua, and Elizabeth of Hungary, among many others.[2]
Francis began preaching around 1207 and traveled to Rome to seek approval from Pope Innocent III in 1209 to form a new religious order. The original Rule of Saint Francis approved by the Pope disallowed ownership of property, requiring members of the order to beg for food while preaching

The Society of Jesus, usually known as the Jesuits, and the Franciscans are both Roman Catholic religious orders. Both have worldwide organizations. Both are engaged in teaching and evangelism. Both build their religious life around the rites and sacraments of the Catholic Church. The two, however, have different histories and organizations. They also attract very different members.

Historical
The Jesuits' founder was Ignatius Loyola, a Spanish soldier. When he founded the Jesuits in 1540, he brought to the organization a soldier's discipline and zeal for training. The Francisicans take their name from Francis of Assisi, the order's founder. Francis was the son of a wealthy merchant. He renounced his wealth and devoted himself to a life of service to the poor. His followers, like Francis, strive to divest themselves not only of wealth but also of ambition, arrogance and power. They live among the poor and needy, and spend their lives in service.


Organizational
The Jesuits are a single organization with a headquarters in Rome. They divide the world by region into assistancies, which are then divided into provinces. Individual Jesuits report to their immediate superiors, who report to their superiors up the line to the Superior General, who is the head of the organization and reports to the pope. Franciscans, on the other hand, are not a single organization but are many organizations that trace their roots to St. Francis. The three most prominent Franciscan orders are the Order of Friars Minor, the Capuchins and the Observants, who are also called the Franciscan Friars. Though all Jesuits are Catholic men, Franciscans have female orders and Protestant orders...............


Reminds of the scene in this movie"

[/QUOTE]
 
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gordonhooker

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It is hard to fathom how a Jesuit is considered a franciscan simply because he adopts the name francis as Pope.



interesting.

There is a big difference between 'like to think' and a definitive statement of fact. I hope you don't read scripture the same way you read CF posts. I am assuming you know what 'like to think' actually means....
 
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BobRyan

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It would be a shame if he did, but only he and our God know what is best for him. He is the first of the Liberation Theology Popes and I pray he will not be the last. Us Franciscans including the Anglican Franciscans like to think he is more of a Franciscan than a Jesuit, but that is not true. The Jesuits have been behind Liberation Theology and have died for it.

It is hard to fathom how a Jesuit is considered a franciscan simply because he adopts the name francis as Pope.

No one said he was a Franciscan you obviously have either:

a. read and not understood what was written, or
b. you are reading into my post a lot more then what I wrote.

interesting.

There is a big difference between 'like to think' and a definitive statement of fact.

I couldn't agree more.

I hope you don't read scripture the same way you read CF posts. I am assuming you know what 'like to think' actually means....

As I always say -- "details matter"
 
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BobRyan

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Just when I thought Christianity could not get any more confusing, up pops that.
My name is Saint Stephen.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
new2.gif
Search Wikipedia Encyclopedia:

Jesuits Franciscans

The Society of Jesus (SJ – from Latin: Societas Iesu) is a scholarly religious congregation of the Catholic Church which originated in sixteenth-century Spain. The members are called Jesuits.[2] The society is engaged in evangelization and apostolic ministry in 112 nations on six continents. Jesuits work in education (founding schools, colleges, universities, and seminaries), intellectual research, and cultural pursuits. Jesuits also give retreats, minister in hospitals and parishes, sponsor direct social ministries, and promote ecumenical dialogue.............

Organizational
The Jesuits are a single organization with a headquarters in Rome. They divide the world by region into assistancies, which are then divided into provinces. Individual Jesuits report to their immediate superiors, who report to their superiors up the line to the Superior General, who is the head of the organization and reports to the pope. Franciscans, on the other hand, are not a single organization but are many organizations that trace their roots to St. Francis. The three most prominent Franciscan orders are the Order of Friars Minor, the Capuchins and the Observants, who are also called the Franciscan Friars. Though all Jesuits are Catholic men, Franciscans have female orders and Protestant orders...............


Reminds of the scene in this movie"

One difference between Franciscans and Jesuits - is that the Pope "abolished" the Jesuit order "forever" in "the fullness of his apostolical power" the 18th century.

=============================

Dominus ac Redemptor Noster

Bull of Pope Clement XIV demanding and ordering that the Jesuit order be permanently abolished.



It ends like this -

========================================

we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power...(command goes here),

...

" Further, we do ordain, that after the publication of this our letter, no person do presume to suspend the execution thereof, under colour, title, or pretence of any action, appeal, relief, explanation of doubts which may arise, or any other pretext whatever, foreseen or not foreseen. ...

...

For all this notwithstanding, our will and pleasure is, that these our letters should forever and to all eternity be valid, permanent, and efficacious, have and obtain their full force and effect, and be inviolably observed by all and every whom they do or may concern, now or hereafter, in any manner whatever.

in the present case, we are determining upon the fate of a society classed among the mendicant orders, both by its institute and by its privileges; after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY: we deprive it of all activity whatever

" In like manner, and not otherwise, we ordain that all the matters here above specified, and every of them, shall be carried into execution by the ordinary judge and delegate; whether by the auditor, cardinal, legate a latere, nuncio, or any other person who has, or ought to have, authority or jurisdiction in any matter or suits, taking from all and every of them all power of interpreting these our letters. And this to be executed, notwithstanding all constitutions, privileges, apostolic commands, &c. &c. &c. ...


"Lastly, our will and pleasure is, that to all copies of the present Brief, signed by a notary public, and sealed by some dignitary of the Church, the same force and credit shall be given as to this original. Given at Rome, at St Mary the Greater, under the seal of the Fisherman, the
21st day of July 1773
, in the fifth year
of our Pontificate."

Dominus ac Redemptor Noster

=========================================

I am pretty sure that no Pope ever abolished the Franciscan order in that fashion.
 
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Mark_Sam

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One difference between Franciscans and Jesuits - is that the Pope "abolished" the Jesuit order "forever" in "the fullness of his apostolical power" the 18th century.
Yes, pope Clement XIV suppressed the Society of Jesus in 1773, but pope Pius VII restored the Order in 1814 with Sollicitudo Omnium Ecclesiarum.

Multiple Franciscan communities have been suppressed throughout history - for example the Fraticelli or "Spiritual Franciscans". And the Fraticelli teaching of Apostolic poverty - that Christ and the Apostles didn't own anything, either individually or in common - was declared heresy in the late 1200's.

Sadly, in our current time, the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate (F.F.I) are being suppressed. Or at least, the Church authorities are giving them a really hard time.

You'd be surprised how Orders are founded, suppressed, merged, disbanded, revived, reformed etc. It gets really confusing.

But back on-topic:
Yes, people grow older today, and the pope should be a strong spiritual man. And being pope takes its toll. But then again, the Papacy is not a "normal job", but a special calling for the chosen few. I hope dying in office remains the norm. Or at least, that the current Pontiff waits untill the previous one dies. Having two popes emeriti would be hilarious. We haven't had a "three pope situation" since the 1418. :)
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, pope Clement XIV suppressed the Society of Jesus in 1773, but pope Pius VII restored the Order in 1814 with Sollicitudo Omnium Ecclesiarum.

That is true: "SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY"

out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power

For all this notwithstanding, our will and pleasure is, that these our letters should forever and to all eternity be valid, permanent, and efficacious, have and obtain their full force and effect, and be inviolably observed by all

at St Mary the Greater, under the seal of the Fisherman, the
21st day of July 1773
,

=====================================

Can be undone at pretty much the snap of a finger.

which is exactly the way Protestants also view it.

=============================

Still it is one of those "noticed" differences between the Jesuit and Franciscan orders.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Interesting tid-bit here:

Pope Francis: Holy Spirit tells bishops and popes when to step down

Vatican City, May 15, 2018 / 12:22 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- At the end of his morning homily Tuesday, Pope Francis asked Catholics to pray for priests, bishops, and the pope, who he said, must learn to leave their posts when it becomes necessary.


Preaching May 15 at the Vatican’s Santa Marta Residence, the pope noted that St. Paul, who was “compelled by the Holy Spirit” to leave Ephesus and journey to Jerusalem, “shows us the pathway for every bishop when it’s time to take his leave and step down.”

Pope Francis has previously hinted at the possibility that he might resign, saying in 2015 that the Catholic Church should not have “leaders for life,” and noting in 2014 that Pope Benedict XVI’s 2013 resignation “cleared a path” for future papal resignations.


During his homily, Francis also said that St. Paul was uncompromising in ministry, saying that service without compromise is essential for pastors wishing to find peace. He said that such uncompromising service is the result of humility, saying that pastors and bishops must remember that they are not “the center of history.”



Sounds like the Vatican is having a "communications" problem called "Lettergate".

Hit by 'fake news' allegations, Vatican releases retired pope's letter about Francis

Stung by accusations of spreading "fake news," the Vatican on Saturday released the complete letter by Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI about Pope Francis after coming under blistering criticism for selectively citing it in a press release and digitally manipulating a photograph of it.


The previously hidden part of the letter provides the full explanation why Benedict refused to write a commentary on a new Vatican-published compilation of books about Francis' theological and philosophical background that was released to mark his fifth anniversary as pope.

In addition to saying he didn't have time, Benedict noted that one of the authors involved in the project had launched "virulent," ''anti-papist" attacks against his teaching and that of St. John Paul II. He said he was "surprised" the Vatican had chosen the theologian to be included in the 11-volume "The Theology of Pope Francis."


"I'm certain you can understand why I'm declining," Benedict wrote.

The Vatican's Secretariat for Communications said Saturday that it was releasing the full text of the letter because of the controversy over the "presumed manipulation" of information when the volume was launched Monday with great fanfare on the eve of Francis' anniversary.


The "Lettergate" scandal has embarrassed the Vatican's communications operations and widened the growing chasm between supporters of Francis' pastoral-focused papacy and conservatives who long for the doctrine-minded tenure of Benedict.


The Secretariat for Communication, in particular, was accused of spreading "fake news" for having omitted key parts of Benedict's letter and — as the Associated Press reported — digitally blurring a photograph of the document where Benedict started to explain why he wouldn't comment on the book.
 
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