romans 8 26 speaking in tongues

[sidelined]

Unfortuantely, for anyone who is unable or unwilling to pray in the Spirit (tongues), then the Holy Spirit is unable to intercede on their behalf to the Father.

This does not mean that those who have chosen not to speak in tongues or who maybe don't realise that they can, that they are unable to effectively pray to the Father in their native tongue; but they do miss out not only with this Spirit driven abilty to pray to the Father, but they also miss out on being able to release themselves in private praise in the Spirit.

Paul made this statement in context of our corporate meetings where some will choose not to audibly pray in the Spirit during a congregational meeting which is to be followed up with an interpretation.

Thankyou Biblicist for your straight answer, laying out your understanding. This is what I wanted.

I dont agree with your view at all. But I thank you for putting it forward

 

[sidelined]

Thanks guys for your views on this topic.

I have reached a conclusion that the backdrop of Pauls teachings to the churches regarding this issus is UNITY. "For the Spirit intercedes for US".

The understanding that the Spirit doesnt intercede for us (if we do not have the gift of trongues) This is a dividing doctrine and goes against Pauls general theme of promoting unity.
Dont get me wrong I am not saying that which should ditch the truth to get unity. I am saying Paul is inclusive of those that have the gift and those that dont have the gift

 

[Receiver]

... I have reached a conclusion that the backdrop of Pauls teachings to the churches regarding this issus is UNITY. "For the Spirit intercedes for US".

The understanding that the Spirit doesnt intercede for us (if we do not have the gift of trongues) This is a dividing doctrine and goes against Pauls general theme of promoting unity.
Dont get me wrong I am not saying that which should ditch the truth to get unity. I am saying Paul is inclusive of those that have the gift and those that dont have the gift

Paul preached the unity of The Spirit, which God instigates by giving all the same infilling with the new prayer language (tongues). The doctrine that some don't get it creates disunity, rejects the clear teaching of Acts and this chapter (Romans 8) and twists the meaning of "the gift of tongues" given to some in 1 Corinthians 12 (and 14).

 

[Biblicist]

Thanks guys for your views on this topic.

I have reached a conclusion that the backdrop of Pauls teachings to the churches regarding this issus is UNITY. "For the Spirit intercedes for US".

When we peruse through the better theological commentaries, many will refer to Paul's understanding of our life in the Spirit as not being so much about unity but with unity within diversity. Imagine how boring congregational life would be if we were all teachers or administrators or for that matter that a congregation was either all male or female. This is why the local congregation is to be a place of strength and refuge as we can all assemble along with our various ministry abilities.

The understanding that the Spirit doesnt intercede for us (if we do not have the gift of trongues) This is a dividing doctrine and goes against Pauls general theme of promoting unity.
Dont get me wrong I am not saying that which should ditch the truth to get unity. I am saying Paul is inclusive of those that have the gift and those that dont have the gift

Considering the many views that exist within the worldwide church I think that if we wanted to avoid dissension and disagreement that we would have to put aside all doctrinal positions and opinions.

It is difficult to see from within Paul's teachings that he would be comfortable with us putting aside Biblical truths for the sake of "unity" or should I say compliance.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks guys for your views on this topic.

I have reached a conclusion that the backdrop of Pauls teachings to the churches regarding this issus is UNITY. "For the Spirit intercedes for US".

The understanding that the Spirit doesnt intercede for us (if we do not have the gift of trongues) This is a dividing doctrine and goes against Pauls general theme of promoting unity.
Dont get me wrong I am not saying that which should ditch the truth to get unity. I am saying Paul is inclusive of those that have the gift and those that dont have the gift

The backdrop of 1 Corinthians is that the Corinthian church was having a lot of problems, most severe is their factionalism. They aligned themselves with different apostles for example, "Of Paul" or "Of Cephas" or "Of Apollos"; some even said "Of Christ"--a lesson for us that claiming of being "just a Christian" against other Christians is still divisiveness and factionalism. Paul, in fact, regards it fortunate that he did not baptize many in Corinth, because that would have only compounded the Corinthians in their divisive attitudes. Some would try and take Paul as saying baptism is unimportant, but that is of course not the point. Paul instead points out how he, Apollos, and Peter (Cephas) were each used for their own tasks by God.

One of the divisive issues is over certain spiritual gifts, most specifically that those who had certain gifts (most prominently, glossolalia) were better than others. Paul wants to nip that in the bud immediately in 1 Corinthians 12, by stating in no uncertain terms that all spiritual gifts are equal, that all have their gifts and callings from the same Holy Spirit. And, ultimately, Paul wants to direct their focus to "a more excellent way". What is that more excellent way? Paul tells us in ch. 13, that without love words are just noise, "If I can speak with the tongues of men or even of angels, but have not love, I am but a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." What is instead more excellent is love; that all other things may fail and won't last, but "these three remain: faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love."

It is love that is the highest calling of the Christian.

Then Paul proceeds to talk about orderliness, practical instruction for how the Corinthians can work together and act orderly.

At no point here is the Apostle suggesting tongues-speech is some super amazing everyone must have gift (indeed, doesn't the Apostle say, "Earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but desire all the more that prophecy"? That preaching, expounding on the truth of God, is a far more valuable gift than tongues-speech. Because it is better to say one word of understanding than a thousand words without understanding. As the Apostle also says, "Tongues are a sign not for believers, but unbelievers." Indeed the Apostle quotes the Prophet Isaiah who says, "For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people". As such tongues are a sign not for those in the Church, but those outside, a sign, even, of judgment against their unbelief. Therefore the Apostle says it is only profitable in the Church if there is someone who can interpret the language that is spoken. And, indeed, these are actual, real, spoken languages, not fits of gibberish.

These are real languages, not fake languages. There is no "heavenly language" or "prayer language" that is modern balderdash. These are real, human languages. Such is very clearly presented in Acts 2 where the pilgrims here the people in the upper room speak in their own tongue.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[sidelined]

thankyou crypto for your reply of which I agree with. Back to the subject of unity, I note that the doctrine of speaking in tongues in this particular piece is divisive. In other words it maintains that the Holy Spirit cannot intercede for a non tongues speaker. That would go against Pauls teaching of "The Spirit intercedes for US

I also note that some supporters of this being about speaking in tongues tend to elaborate the scripture to compose their argument. Also I believe Paul would clearly say "If you dont speak in tongues The Holy Spirit cannot intercede for you"

On another point ,I read that the praying in a tongue could refer to the style of praying at that time where set prayers were recited in an old language. Do you have any info about this. Thanks once again

 

[ViaCrucis]

thankyou crypto for your reply of which I agree with. Back to the subject of unity, I note that the doctrine of speaking in tongues in this particular piece is divisive. In other words it maintains that the Holy Spirit cannot intercede for a non tongues speaker. That would go against Pauls teaching of "The Spirit intercedes for US

I also note that some supporters of this being about speaking in tongues tend to elaborate the scripture to compose their argument. Also I believe Paul would clearly say "If you dont speak in tongues The Holy Spirit cannot intercede for you"

On another point ,I read that the praying in a tongue could refer to the style of praying at that time where set prayers were recited in an old language. Do you have any info about this. Thanks once again

The first instance of glossolalia is on Pentecost, where those in the upper room began to speak in tongues and the many Jewish pilgrims visiting Jerusalem for Shavuot (Pentecost) understood that these were their tongues. Now in the case of the listed places mentioned in Acts 2:8-11, many of these likely refer to dialects not just full blown separate languages, consider that Crete, Phrygia, Pontus, and Asia are all mentioned and that the language in all these was Greek, so here the idea of dialect should be included in addition to "language" as we typically understand it. As the definition and distinction between "language" and "dialect" is always a fuzzy one, even among linguists today.

But what's important to take away is that the native speakers understood what was being said, their language was being spoken and they heard it, and they understood it.

There's really no reason to understand the phenomenon described here, or else understood as the gift or charism of tongues as simply speaking or praying archaically. These were actual languages that were actually spoken by people who if they heard what was being said by the tongues-speaker would understand it.

These were not outbursts of emotion and ecstasy; and the misuse of tongues-speech--an uncontrolled outburst for example--is criticized by the apostle in his letter to the Corinthians as being disorderly; being inappropriate for a people who claim to worship a God of order, not confusion.

As such I regard the vast amount of what passes today as "speaking in tongues" is entirely unrelated to the biblical phenomenon, and it has far more in common (very often) with various ecstatic animistic and pagan spiritual traditions, such as kundalini. Some would say it's demonic, I don't think we need to attribute to devils what is better explained as quite human. Intense emotional ecstasy saturates the brain in endorphins and other hormones, one is literally giving themselves a natural high, and as such the intense experience is very much like a drug.

Now obviously in many ways I'm talking about the most extreme cases of Pentecostalism, not every corner of the Pentecostal/Charismatic tradition is at the extreme end of the spectrum. The church I grew up in was a Foursquare church, and as a rule we avoided much of the insanity. Though I would still say that the heightened emotional and ecstatic experiences associated with Pentecostal and Charismatic worship, even in non-Pentecostal and non-Charismatic churches, is largely a matter of conflating brain chemistry with the Holy Spirit, confusing a biochemistry with God.

So I don't feel a need to attribute it to anything supernatural when the natural is almost certainly a better fit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ebedmelech]

Unfortuantely, for anyone who is unable or unwilling to pray in the Spirit (tongues), then the Holy Spirit is unable to intercede on their behalf to the Father.

What? How do you come to that conclusion, when Paul teaches "all do not speak in tongues, as well as the fact the the Holy Spirit determines who receives what gift. You go beyond what Romans 8:26 is saying. The pure point of that passage is that when we don't understand what to pray out of weakness, the Holy Spirit INTERCEDES "with groaning to deep for words".

The real point of understanding what's going on is verse 27:
27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
This is the bottom line the Holy Spirit intercedes our prayer and puts it according to God's will.

This does not mean that those who have chosen not to speak in tongues or who maybe don't realise that they can, that they are unable to effectively pray to the Father in their native tongue; but they do miss out not only with this Spirit driven abilty to pray to the Father, but they also miss out on being able to release themselves in private praise in the Spirit.

This is not correct. Is it not the Holy Spirit who gives the gifts? Nothing says we all should speak in tongues.

Paul made this statement in context of our corporate meetings where some will choose not to audibly pray in the Spirit during a congregational meeting which is to be followed up with an interpretation.

No he didn't. When you hold context of what's being said, gifts are being exercised in the church, so it is a congregational gathering.

The problem is the saints are acting like children in exercising their gifts, trying to make one gift (in this case tongues), superior to others.

 

[com7fy8]

Romans 8:26, in my Bible says,

"Likewise the Spirit also helps us in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings with cannot be uttered."

Ok, so the intercession of the Holy Spirit is "with groanings which cannot be uttered."

And tongues and known languages can be uttered.

So, what are these "groanings" in the Holy Spirit's prayer for us?

I consider the Holy Spirit groans with loving appreciation of our Heavenly Father, and our Groom Jesus, and groans with thanksgiving for us who are the children of God, and groans with compassion and caring for people who are wrong and suffering because of their sinning.

So, these are love's groanings. Maybe the Holy Spirit is like a loving wife who moans and groans to her hubby, in order to encourage and please him to do what is good. We may not be so great, but the Holy Spirit interceding for us is so delighting to our Father, to please Him to keep on with us so we become more like Jesus and the Holy Spirit, "so we are delighting to Him like the Holy Spirit is"

And we have how we are told this > "praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God," in Jude 20-21. So, yes God's word directs us to pray in His Holy Spirit. And with this we keep ourselves "in the love of God". God does desire that we share with the Holy Spirit in His prayer; and if we do share with the Holy Spirit in His love's praying, I can see that we are sharing in His "groanings which cannot be uttered" . . . groaning in love for our Father and our Groom Jesus and one another and for ones suffering in their sinning.

So, this is for us to do, not only talk about this ! ! !

This is how personal and sharing God wants to be with each of us. So, may we by Your grace be submitting to You and how Your Holy Spirit has us sharing in prayer with Your Holy Spirit in us. This is in Your love which the Holy Spirit shares with us >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

 

[sidelined]

thank you for your most educating comment

 

[sidelined]

thankyou comfy for your reply

 

[com7fy8]

thankyou comfy for your reply

I corrected my reply. Thanks for the encouragement.

Bill

 

[pshun2404]

Do ALL prophesy? Do ALL speak in tongues? Obviously not! Now all do speak in a tongue (an earthly language) so this is not what he is referring to...are tongues THE evidence of the Holy Spirit? Obviously not! Are they AN evidence? Obviously yes (if they are genuine)! Are they or can they be taught or created/developed as some denominations do? No they cannot be taught (it is a gift of the Holy Spirit) if they are genuine...

 

[Biblicist]

What? How do you come to that conclusion, when Paul teaches "all do not speak in tongues, as well as the fact the the Holy Spirit determines who receives what gift. You go beyond what Romans 8:26 is saying. The pure point of that passage is that when we don't understand what to pray out of weakness, the Holy Spirit INTERCEDES "with groaning to deep for words".

The real point of understanding what's going on is verse 27:
27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
This is the bottom line the Holy Spirit intercedes our prayer and puts it according to God's will.

This is not correct. Is it not the Holy Spirit who gives the gifts? Nothing says we all should speak in tongues.

No he didn't. When you hold context of what's being said, gifts are being exercised in the church, so it is a congregational gathering.

The problem is the saints are acting like children in exercising their gifts, trying to make one gift (in this case tongues), superior to others.

When you come across the term "corporate gatherings", it is being used to refer to any meeting where a number of Believers are assembled and particularly with that of the main congregational meeting.

As for "going beyond Rom 8:26" you would be correct as I am connecting it with 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 along with Eph 6:18, Jude 20.

As for "not all speak in tongues", Paul is saying that not all will choose to speak in tongues/interpret with the congregational meeting. Quite often, those who are able to prophesy will choose to do this than speak a word of praise to the Father in tongues and follow it up with a translation.

Even though it is common to see remarks that the Corinthians were supposedly placing tongues above the other Manifestations of the Spirit this is little more than an old wives tale. Paul does not dismiss their praying in the Spirit in anyway during the congregational meetings but he is certainly unhappy with how they were corporately speaking/singing in tongues which tends to negate the ability to translate what is being said.

The passage in Rom 8:26 is interesting in that when we pray/sing in the Spirit (tongues), we are not doing so in a known human language so the opinion is that the Spirit may be uttering either Angelic tongues or simply inarticulate words/groanings as we intercede to the Father. There's probably no real concensus within Full Gospel theology as to Rom 8:26 referring to either an Angelic tongue or simply that the words that the Holy Spirit speaks through us are maybe inarticulate groanings, I doubt if we will ever be able to come to a final conclusion with this passage.

 

[Biblicist]

These were not outbursts of emotion and ecstasy; and the misuse of tongues-speech--an uncontrolled outburst for example--is criticized by the apostle in his letter to the Corinthians as being disorderly; being inappropriate for a people who claim to worship a God of order, not confusion.

With my 40 years within Pentecost, I have never come across anyone who has been in an ecstatic state while they have been praying in tongues; for that matter I have never heard anyone who has encountered such a thing either.

Ecstatic behaviour or losing ones self-control has absolutely no connection with praying in the Spirit nor with prophecy.