Romans 2:12-An Equalizer Between Faith and the Law?

[Clare73]

In post #11, you made a claim about what Galatians 3:10 says that is actually the opposite of it says, I respond to your claim in post #12, and I missed that you were speaking about Galatias 3:11 instead of 3:10 in post #13 when you claimed to be saying what it says, so sorry about my mistake. It appears that you are agreeing that the Mosaic Law was never given as a means of resulting in righteousness instead of saying that we are not made righteous as the result of obeying it because we can't obey it according to God's standards.

However, both are true.

 

[Soyeong]

However, both are true.

Galatians 3:10 notably says that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Mosaic Law and notably does not say that we will be cursed regardless of whether or not we obey it. The historical reality recorded in the Bible is not that all of Israel was cursed regardless of whether they chose to live in obedience to God's law, but rather only those who chose not to continue to live in obedience to it were cursed.

 

[newton3005]

Galatians 3:10 notably says that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Mosaic Law and notably does not say that we will be cursed regardless of whether or not we obey it. The historical reality recorded in the Bible is not that all of Israel was cursed regardless of whether they chose to live in obedience to God's law, but rather only those who chose not to continue to live in obedience to it were cursed.

Similarly, James 2:10 says "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."

 

[Soyeong]

Similarly, James 2:10 says "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."

If someone breaks any of God's laws and becomes a lawbreaker, then they need to repent and return to obedience to it, which is what James was encouraging them to do.

 

[Clare73]

Galatians 3:10 notably says that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Mosaic Law and notably does not say that we will be cursed regardless of whether or not we obey it. The historical reality recorded in the Bible is not that all of Israel was cursed regardless of whether they chose to live in obedience to God's law, but rather only those who chose not to continue to live in obedience to it were cursed.

Notable misrepresentation. . .

Actually, it states "all who rely on works of the law are under a curse."

The Greek reads: "For as many as are of works of law are under a curse; for it is has been written, "Accursed everyone who continues not in all the things having been written in the roll of the law (covenant) to do them."

The statement: "As many as are" is unequivocal, that is "all" who rely on the law are under a curse.

 

[Soyeong]

Notable misrepresentation. . .

Actually, it states "all who rely on works of the law are under a curse."

The Greek reads: "For as many as are of works of law are under a curse; for it is has been written, "Accursed everyone who continues not in all the things having been written in the roll of the law (covenant) to do them."

The statement: "As many as are" is unequivocal, that is "all" who rely on the law are under a curse.

I was referring to what Paul was quoting from. According to what Paul was quoting, all who cease to rely on the Mosaic Law come under the curse of the law, all who continue to rely on everything in the law do not come under its curse, and it does not say that everyone comes under the curse of the law regardless of whether or not they rely on it. So all of those who are under a curse do not to rely on the Mosaic Law and are relying on something else instead, such as works of the law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 saying that the one who obeys the Mosaic Law will live by its so those who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they re not of faith. God is trustworthy therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obeying what He has instructed, while it is contradictory to think that we should rely God, but should not rely what He has instructed. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it.

 

[Clare73]

I was referring to what Paul was quoting from. According to what Paul was quoting, all who cease to rely on the Mosaic Law come under the curse of the law, all who continue to rely on everything in the law do not come under its curse,

You have got to be kidding!

 

[Soyeong]

You have got to be kidding!

The passage of Deuteronomy 27:11-26 is what Paul was quoting from and I don't see how anyone can read it and come to the conclusion that everyone will be cursed by the law. There is no way that they would have said "amen" if they were all agreeing to be cursed. Verse 15 says cursed is the man who makes a carved or molded image Cursed is the one who makes a carved or molded image, an abomination to the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ It doesn't say that everyone will be cursed regardless of whether or not they do that. The same goes for those who treat their father or mother with contempt, who moves his neighbor's landmark, who makes the blind to wander off the road, who perverts justice due to the strangers, the orphan, and the widow, or who lies with his father's wife, any kind of animal, his sister, or mother-in-law, who attacks his neighbor in secret, or who takes a bribe to slay the innocent. There is nothing in this passage that indicates that that those who rely on God's law will be cursed, but rather the curse is for those who do not rely on God's law, yet you are trying to use Paul quoting from this passage to say that cursed are those who rely on God's law, so indeed you've got to be kidding.

 

[Clare73]

The passage of Deuteronomy 27:11-26 is what Paul was quoting from and I don't see how anyone can read it and come to the conclusion that everyone will be cursed by the law.

Setting the OT against the NC. . .I rest my case.

 

[Soyeong]

Setting the OT against the NC. . .I rest my case.

No part of the Bible should be interpreted in a way that contradicts other parts of the Bible, yet you interpret Galatians 3:10 in a way that contradicts Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

 

[Clare73]

No part of the Bible should be interpreted in a way that contradicts other parts of the Bible, yet you interpret Galatians 3:10 in a way that contradicts Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Mature NT doctrine reconciles them (Heb 6:1).

 

[Soyeong]

Mature NT doctrine reconciles them (Heb 6:1).

If the OT says to do something and you think that the NT says not to do that, then you are interpreting them as contradicting each other when they should be interpreted in a manner where they are not contradicting each other. Progressing from discussing the elementary principles of Christ does not reconcile verses that you have interpreted in a contradictory manner that is opposed to the truth.

 

[pasifika]

The passage of Deuteronomy 27:11-26 is what Paul was quoting from and I don't see how anyone can read it and come to the conclusion that everyone will be cursed by the law. There is no way that they would have said "amen" if they were all agreeing to be cursed. Verse 15 says cursed is the man who makes a carved or molded image Cursed is the one who makes a carved or molded image, an abomination to the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ It doesn't say that everyone will be cursed regardless of whether or not they do that. The same goes for those who treat their father or mother with contempt, who moves his neighbor's landmark, who makes the blind to wander off the road, who perverts justice due to the strangers, the orphan, and the widow, or who lies with his father's wife, any kind of animal, his sister, or mother-in-law, who attacks his neighbor in secret, or who takes a bribe to slay the innocent. There is nothing in this passage that indicates that that those who rely on God's law will be cursed, but rather the curse is for those who do not rely on God's law, yet you are trying to use Paul quoting from this passage to say that cursed are those who rely on God's law, so indeed you've got to be kidding.

Is cursed anyone who does not continue to do everything that is written in the Law. (So if fail to obey the law then curse is the result instead of blessings)

 

[Clare73]

If the OT says to do something and you think that the NT says not to do that, then you are interpreting them as contradicting each other when they should be interpreted in a manner where they are not contradicting each other. Progressing from discussing the elementary principles of Christ does not reconcile verses that you have interpreted in a contradictory manner that is opposed to the truth.

I don't find them contradictory.

 

[Soyeong]

Is cursed anyone who does not continue to do everything that is written in the Law. (So if fail to obey the law then curse is the result instead of blessings)

In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between God's blessing and a curse is picking a mountain and climbing it, about whether we are going to choose to serve God by walking in His way in obedience to His law or whether we are going to not obey God's commandments, but turn aside from God's way to go after other gods. God's law came with instructions for what to do when His people sinned, so we can choose to repent and continue to live in accordance with God's law even after they failed to keep it, which is different from someone turning away from obeying God's law in order to follow other gods. If a single failure to keep God's law resulted in being under a curse instead of a blessing, then all of Israel would have been under a curse, but that does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who went after other gods. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So obedience was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need to have perfect obedience in order to avoid being cursed.

 

[Soyeong]

I don't find them contradictory.

There is no sense in interpreting Galatians 3:10 as Paul was quoting from the OT in order to support a point that is contrary to what he was quoting from, but rather Galatians 3:10 should be interpreted in a way that is in agreement with the OT that relying on the Law of God is the way to be blessed.

 

[Clare73]

There is no sense in interpreting Galatians 3:10 as Paul was quoting from the OT in order to support a point that is contrary to what he was quoting from, but rather Galatians 3:10 should be interpreted in a way that is in agreement with the OT that relying on the Law of God is the way to be blessed.

"Interpretation" is not governed by what one thinks is "sense"--where such methodology is governed by one's theology, and which explains your contra-NT views--but by the words of the NT text in its NT context.
And in its context, "all who rely on the law are under a curse," because in the NT context no one can keep it according to God's requirements, thereby all who rely on keeping it are under a curse for their failure to do so.