Richard Dawkins and the miracle of the sun

Michie

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John Hyperspace

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The article reads: “It is not easy to explain how seventy thousand people could share the same hallucination. But it is even harder to accept that it really happened without the rest of the world, outside Fatima, seeing it too — and not just seeing it, but feeling it as the catastrophic destruction of the solar system, including acceleration forces sufficient to hurl everybody into space” (p. 116).

As the article mentions, Dawkin's is making an egregious reasoning error here in, expecting his "scientific understanding of the ramifications of a 'moving sun'" to hold true when the event itself would be demonstrating that his "scientific understanding" of astrophysics (which is based upon theory which is constructed of tentative approximations) is clearly wrong in face of the presented evidence.

I see all manner of simple reasoning errors commited by "learned men" so often than I can only presume the phrase "learned men" is being attached to "incompetent men". Why anyone would trust the reasoning of "learned men" who clearly commit such basic and fundamental errors in reasoning is beyond me; save for the concept of predetermination. If they commit such reason errors in such statements, I can only wonder where else they are committing reasoning errors in their own field of "understanding"

The article reads: In conclusion, we can say that people such as Richard Dawkins have a similar attitude to Emile Zola, the late 19th-century atheistic French novelist, who was privileged to see two miracles at Lourdes but who said, “Were I to see all the sick at Lourdes cured, I would not believe in a miracle.”
So we have free will and can reject the miraculous even if it happens right before our eyes.


I disagree that this supports the concept of "freewill", especially given that, to me, lack of freewill more adequately explains why a person cannot comprehend a basic reasoning errors. But the bible says that God hardens whom He will: Pharoah seems to have no choice in rejecting miracles being performed right in his presence as being a display of the God of Moses. Jesus said He spoke in parables for the purpose of giving to some, and withholding from others: Matthew 13:10-11: and that God is the One that is doing the giving of understanding: Romans 11:8
 
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s_gunter

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As the article mentions, Dawkin's is making an egregious reasoning error here in, expecting his "scientific understanding of the ramifications of a 'moving sun'" to hold true when the event itself would be demonstrating that his "scientific understanding" of astrophysics (which is based upon theory which is constructed of tentative approximations) is clearly wrong in face of the presented evidence.
True, Dawkins is a biologist, not an astrophysicist. He might have the exact details wrong, but he's still right in that there would be catastrophic consequences if the sun did move as described. Even the article acknowledges that, and even came up with a defense for it. But hey, dismiss everyone who doesn't get it exactly right, who don't already match your preconceived notions.

So what Dawkins does here is to ignore the evidence of the witnesses, and rather focus on the effect the miracle would have had on the rest of the solar system and thus dismisses it that way.
But this is to ignore the omnipotence of God who is quite capable of dealing with any side effects from a miracle, as was the case in Old Testament times, when there was another “miracle of sun” involving Joshua, who commanded the sun and moon to stand still in the sky so that the Israelites could defeat their enemies (Joshua 10:13).
Dawkins deals with sheer reality. This stuff about God existing, creating the Earth, and guiding the lives of the entire Earth's population meets the very definition of psychosis in his scientific-only (no faith) mind. As believers in God, we have a word/euphemism for this type of psychosis: faith. (Heb 11:1)

“It is not easy to explain how seventy thousand people could share the same hallucination. But it is even harder to accept that it really happened without the rest of the world, outside Fatima, seeing it too — and not just seeing it, but feeling it as the catastrophic destruction of the solar system, including acceleration forces sufficient to hurl everybody into space” (p. 116).
Here, he admits that it's hard to explain the 70,000 witnesses away. He's only adding the good point that the moving sun would have caused cataclysmic destruction that everyone world-wide would have seen. That makes this sentence in the article wrong:
So what Dawkins does here is to ignore the evidence of the witnesses, and rather focus on the effect the miracle would have had on the rest of the solar system and thus dismisses it that way.
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But to do this is not to be acting scientifically, or rationally, since the proper investigation of reality should also include at least the acknowledgment that there may well be a realm beyond the material and the senses. And it also means taking all the evidence into account and not just dismissing the parts which we don’t like.
Um, no. To do as the author of the article suggests flies in the face of the actual definition of science. All we have here is the classic argument of who's right, faith vs. science. Are we to take the 70,000 witnesses word for it through our faith, or are we to use the scientific approach?

This was a valiant attempt by the author to discredit the renowned scientist for not being scientific, even though what he wants from Dawkins isn't science at all.
 
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John Hyperspace

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True, Dawkins is a biologist, not an astrophysicist. He might have the exact details wrong, but he's still right in that there would be catastrophic consequences if the sun did move as described.

Actually I propose that you're committing the same basic reasoning fallacy. When you say "but he's still right in that there would be catastrophic consequences if the sun did move as described" you're proposing a theoretical model of astrophysics as if it were "self-evident fact" when it is not, but as all theoretic science it is "approximate and tentative": there are, in fact, other theories of astrophysics that would allow for no "catastrophic consequences" of a moving sun.

But this is not really the main error; the main error is coming to the conclusion through this error in reasoning, instead of acknowledging that the evidence would become a falsification of the astrophysical theory you are "married" to. In other words, this would be like, observing the sun moving closer to the earth, doubling in size with respect to the normal appearence, and remaining in place ; then concluding that the "sun has not moved and is not remaining" based upon acceptance of "a tentative theoretic model which does not allow such movement without consequences"

To be clearer: this is rejecting evidence that falsifies a theory on no grounds besides the theoretical model itself. As if you and I watched the sun do loops through the sky, and I turn to you and say "I guess the common tentative theory of astrophysics is in error" and you reply "Not to me, to me it is not falsified, and the sun did not just loop through the sky"; you are rejecting observation in favor of a tentative model. A basic error in reasoning that Dawkins, and yourself, have committed.

Even the article acknowledges that, and even came up with a defense for it. But hey, dismiss everyone who doesn't get it exactly right, who don't already match your preconceived notions.

The one who rejects observation in light of a tentative theoretic model is actually the one who is "dismissive of X because X doesn't match your preconceived notions": in this cause, theoretical astrophyics is the "preconceived notion"- respectfully, your reasoning is backwards, much like Dawkins' in this "rebuttal"

Note, this is not to say "We must accept the vision, and it really happened, and is a real miracle": this is to say, whatever the case with the event; Dawkins committs basic reasoning fallacy, as also do you.

Dawkins deals with sheer reality.

Reality is observation. I'm not sure what you are suggesting "sheer reality" but theoretic astrophysics is not "sheer reality" it is a tentative and approximate model, and actually, one of several different astrophysical models.

Um, no. To do as the author of the article suggests flies in the face of the actual definition of science. All we have here is the classic argument of who's right, faith vs. science. Are we to take the 70,000 witnesses word for it through our faith, or are we to use the scientific approach?

If there are indeed 70,000 witnesses, then we should take their witness of observation over one approximation by way of a tentative theoretical model of astrophysics. To reject the witnessed observation of 70,000 people because it falsifies one specific theoretical model is unscientific in the extreme.
 
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s_gunter

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The one who rejects observation in light of a tentative theoretic model is actually the one who is "dismissive of X because X doesn't match your preconceived notions": in this cause, theoretical astrophyics is the "preconceived notion"- respectfully, your reasoning is backwards, much like Dawkins' in this "rebuttal"

Note, this is not to say "We must accept the vision, and it really happened, and is a real miracle": this is to say, whatever the case with the event; Dawkins committs basic reasoning fallacy, as also do you.
Nice try. Astrophysics is observable. We might not know the exact details about how exactly it would happen, but there would be consequences if the sun did move closer to the Earth. Science has already proven that. Science has already proven that the conditions are exactly right for support of life on this planet.

Let me guess: You're one of those who do not believe in evolution since not all the pieces have been found, even though scientists have observed evolution occur. Why do I throw that in there? Because the argument you just attempted sounds exactly like those given by the religious against evolution (nit picking the details).
Reality is observation. I'm not sure what you are suggesting "sheer reality" but theoretic astrophysics is not "sheer reality" it is a tentative and approximate model, and actually, one of several different astrophysical models.
Ah yes, but "theorectic" astrophysics is still waaaay more observable than God Himself is. Who (ONLY human) as actually seen God? Who can report what He feels like to the touch? Who can report what he smells like? No one. But with astrophysics, the theories can be observed, or through observation, said theory gets amended.
*What a meant by sheer reality: ONLY things that can be scientifically observable by the senses. ONLY material things.
To reject the witnessed observation of 70,000 people because it falsifies one specific theoretical model is unscientific in the extreme.
That would be true if Dawkins actually dismissed the witnesses. He didn't. He did admit it was hard to explain how 70,000 people witnessed that. But, since Dawkins is also a renowned atheist, you wanna believe that assumption so bad, it hurts.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Nice try. Astrophysics is observable. We might not know the exact details about how it exactly it would happen, but there would be consequences if the sun did move closer to the Earth. Science has already proven that. Science has already proven that the conditions are exactly right for support of life on this planet.

I truly mean no disrespect, but you are not understanding the nature of theoretical sciences such as astrophysics; nor do I believe you are understanding science in general. There is not really such a thing as "proof" in science; proof is something in mathematics and logic, but not theoretical astrophyics.

Would you mind disclosing whether or not you have any knowledge of other proposed astrophysical models? Or, models of solar dynamics?

Let me guess: You're one of those who do not believe in evolution since not all the pieces have been found, even though scientists have observed evolution occur. Why do I throw that in there? Because the argument you just attempted sounds exactly like those given by the religious against evolution (nit picking the details).

I would rather stay on the question of astrophysics and basic reasoning errors, and not divert to the red herrings you're offering. Am I to understand this as your attempt to obfuscate the issue?

Ah yes, but "theorectic" astrophysics is still waaaay more observable than God Himself is.

I'm sorry, I was talking about the observation of 70,000 alleged witnesses concerning movement of the sun in the sky. If you are understanding me as somehow speaking of "God" at this point, I'm afraid you're mistaken. I am speaking of an observation which apparently (if the records and witnesses are not bearing false witnesses) falsifies the common theory of astrophysics.

That would be true if Dawkins actually dismissed the witnesses. He didn't. He did admit it was hard to explain how 70,000 people witnessed that. But, since Dawkins is also a renowned atheist, you wanna believe that assumption so bad, it hurts.

Again, no offense, but I believe any "wanna believe that assumption so bad, it hurts" is coming from your side of the table. I am merely commenting on the witness of 70,000 people which falsifies the common model of astrophysics, and how Dawkins (and yourself) have not only committed a basic fallacy in reasoning, but continue to be unable to comprehend the basic error even when it is made known.
 
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s_gunter

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I truly mean no disrespect, but you are not understanding the nature of theoretical sciences such as astrophysics; nor do I believe you are understanding science in general. There is not really such a thing as "proof" in science; proof is something in mathematics and logic, but not theoretical astrophyics.

Would you mind disclosing whether or not you have any knowledge of other proposed astrophysical models? Or, models of solar dynamics?
If you're allowed to only use that narrow part of the definition of "theory" to state that something isn't positively a cold, hard fact, I can broaden the word "proven" the same way. You know, semantics. ;)

I would rather stay on the question of astrophysics and basic reasoning errors, and not divert to the red herrings you're offering. Am I to understand this as your attempt to obfuscate the issue?
No need for me to obfuscate the issue. I was just using it as an attempt to understand where you're coming from.

Again, no offense, but I believe any "wanna believe that assumption so bad, it hurts" is coming from your side of the table. I am merely commenting on the witness of 70,000 people which falsifies the common model of astrophysics, and how Dawkins (and yourself) have not only committed a basic fallacy in reasoning, but continue to be unable to comprehend the basic error even when it is made known.
You'd use what is considered a mass hallucination in non-religious circles, that was probably triggered by church parishioners desperately wanting/needing to see a sign from heaven as "proof" that current astrophysics models are wrong? No wonder science laughs at religion... Leave science to science, and religion to religion.
 
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s_gunter

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No, he doesn't. He deals only with the least significant subset of reality, insisting that the subset is the totality.
There is a difference between religion/faith and science. Science deals only with material and senses. God cannot be "proven" with science. We have to have faith. That's what I tried to describe with the terms "sheer reality," and I admit I failed in that regard.
 
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John Hyperspace

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If you're allowed to only use that narrow part of the definition of "theory" to state that something isn't positively a cold, hard fact, I can broaden the word "proven" the same way. You know, semantics.

Am I to understand that you are not claiming that the popular model of solar astrophysics is "cold, hard fact"? And that it may be refuted by observational evidence?

You'd use what is considered a mass hallucination in non-religious circles

I do not know how the occurrence is regarding in "non-religious" circles, I've only here seen one man's regarding. I would, however, admit I am not partuclualry impressed by the regardings of, what? About 5% of humanity? Especially if they're also based on the same egregiously simple reasoning errors as committed by Dawkins in his "regardings" of the event.

that was probably triggered by church parishioners

That is quite a hypothesis you've got there. 70,000 parishioners triggered a mass hullucination of the sun doing gymnastics across the sky, and more. Do you have any precedent upon which to base this hypothesis, or, is this a hypothesis born out of desparation? By precedent, if you're not clear, do you know of any similar "mass hallucination" of tens of thousands of people? A similar "event" which can only be "regarded" as "mass hallucination"

You realize at this point that you are actually rejecting the observational data upon which the whole of scientific thought is founded? You're literally sweeping the legs of "science" at this point, in order to form your "hypothesis"? In other words, you're saying "Never mind what 70,000 people witnessed; believe my mathematical theory (which is only one of several) and that my theory (which is only one of several) cannot be circumvented even by a potential being with omnipotence." This is what Dawkins is saying, and I presume with which you concur?

Again, with all sincere respect, how can neither you nor Dawkin's see how absolutely erroneous that statement is? It's very simple reasoning error. The absurdity of the error is only eclipsed by the absurdity of those that can't see how absurd he statement is.

desperately wanting/needing to see a sign from heaven as "proof" that current astrophysics models are wrong?

Why are you assuming the 70,000 people were "needing a sign as 'proof' that one current astrophysic (not 'current astrophysics models')"?

No wonder science laughs at religion...

Am I to understand that you believe that "science" is not comprised mainly of religious people?

Leave science to science, and religion to religion.

You're free to let others think for you; I will think for myself.
 
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Tallguy88

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Why do people not seem to understand that it's a miracle? Some people saw it and others didn't. This is the same as Pentecost in the book of Acts: thousands heard the Apostles speaking discernable foreign tongues, but others heard only gibberish and accused them of being drunk on new wine.

As far as the earth not being destroyed by the sun dancing, well if God can make the Sun dance then I have no doubt He can stop it from destroying us as it happens. This is God we are talking about, after all.
 
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