Revisiting Daniel 12

[taikachanz]

At least I admit that there are no specific verses that point to us being able to decipher the time periods in time prophecies, or even the 1335 days prophecies. Can you also admit that there are none that specifically say we can’t? You seem to want to avoid this fact.

Your quote from GW pg 300 would seem to go against your signature; but I guess that's another topic.

I am an SDA, as you also claim to be, and as such believe EGW to be a prophet of the remnant church. It is proper and prudent that her writings be studied and understood, in their proper context and in the time period in which they were written, as it should be done with the prophetic Word in the scriptures. The majority of her writings were written for the church as is the case in GW. So what we read here, and in the testimonies and other such writings, are to be taken by the church as directions for the church. The portion I quoted has been and continues to be ignored, as with a multitude of other writings, to our detriment. It would do us well to study these and get back to what she taught about search for new light.

I see you have kind of switched things around a little bit as your ideas are questioned.

It would help if you posted the quotes in which you refer, however if I am correct you’re referring to my explanation of the verses you listed. I have not switched anything around, it is a further explanation of the theory I propose.

We were talking specifically here about whether or not the exact date of Christ's return can be calculated re the 1335 days of Dan 12:12, or from the 1290 days of Dan 12:11, and now you are just saying "time prophecies," in general, as if I was somehow saying that time prophecies cannot be calculated.

No that is not the case, I used that as evidence that it can be done. As it can and has been done with others so it can be done with the last. God is consistent, he does not change, and to say every time prophecy can be calculated except the 1335 one is ludicrous. To exclude this particular time prophecies from the rest is like excluding one of you body parts from you body and saying it doesn’t matter.

I think you know that is the farthest thing there is from the truth in this thread. That’s not what I have been saying at all. What I am saying is that you cannot find Biblical evidence to say that we will ever be able to know the exact time and date of the second coming of Jesus, and so I will continue to wait and see if you can drum something up on that.

There are aspects within scripture that may well support that possibility; however these will never be accepted. If you’d study what I’ve posted already you might discover what I’m talking about, but I doubt that you will given your prejudices against it.

In particular, you have insinuated Daniel 12;11-12 into that question I have asked, as if those texts give us a way to "calculate" the date of Christ's second coming, and that is something else you are a very long ways off from even coming close to proving.

Again, I have already explained how they DO give us a way to do just that. Just as there was and is a way to do the same with the 2300 days prophecy and all its sub-time prophecies, as the SDAs teach. It is consistent with all time prophecies. And you would learn that if you studied it.

You quoted the following text as alleged "proof" that we can know the exact date of Christ's second coming:

Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I find it interesting that when we apply this to EGW that it is valid, but when it is applied to the revelation of possible new light it cannot be accepted. Are you among those who believe that EGW was the final prophet and that there is no more light to be revealed? If you are then you need to rethink your views because EGW specifically stated that she was not.

Taking this verse out of context and trying to make it mean that God will reveal everything to us is nothing short of a poor understanding of scripture and prophecy, especially considering that God also says this:

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29)

The Bible is clear, that God will not, and does not, and has not, revealed everything to us.

I have not take the Amos quote out of context anymore than we do to proof EGW as a prophetess. Please show me where it is clearly stated that God WILL NOT and DOES NOT reveal everything to us. I know that he has not yet done so, but God does not lie, he has made a promise to do so and, therefore, I believe he will reveal all, eventually, before the last day, but not at the last minute.

In your comments above you called prophecy 'secrets" but the Lord does not consider it a "secret." The Bible calls it "the SURE word of prophecy." (not a secret). So there is no need to doubt what prophecy is, but there is a strong need for us to see that scripture does not condone your line of thought here on knowing the exact date of Christ's return, and no "review" or "revisiting" of Daniel 12 will tell us any different.

And now you contradict yourself, either we can know or we cannot know. A sure word of prophecy is a statement affirming that prophecy can be understood and if prophecy can be understood that would include all time prophecies. It is not I that says prophecy is a secret it is the scriptures and it is also scripture that tells us God will reveal his secrets, unlocking the keys to understanding his prophetic word. Again, you have shown no evidence(s) that knowing when Christ will return is not possible.

There is only one date revealed, and which has any importance, in Daniel 12, and you appear to have missed it completely.

There is only one date that concerns me, that is the date of the Lord’s return. This is my hope. My theory states a particular time for Christ’s return, but I look for him each and every day. Understand also that there are a multitude of things that need to happen, and are in the process of happening, before he does return. The time is quickly approaching but many have their heads stuck in the sand.

 

[Castaway57]

There is only one date that concerns me, that is the date of the Lord’s return. This is my hope. My theory states a particular time for Christ’s return, but I look for him each and every day. Understand also that there are a multitude of things that need to happen, and are in the process of happening, before he does return. The time is quickly approaching but many have their heads stuck in the sand.

Most of your post above is just rationalization; so I'll just ask you about this. What is that date and how do you arrive at it?

 

[taikachanz]

Most of your post above is just rationalization;

Ok, so will skip your responses (or non responses) to all I’ve said so far.

so I'll just ask you about this. What is that date and how do you arrive at it?

I hate being redundant but since you’ve requested it again I will oblige your request. This will take some time so I will post it as simply as possible and in pieces. All you need to do is copy my posts and respond with “agree” or “disagree”, if you disagree I request that you make a statement as to why and any proofs in scriptures that support your disagreement.

In Daniel 1 we see the beginning of Daniel and his friend’s captivity. They are placed in the king’s court or school of learning to be trained in the ways of the Babylonian culture. During this time they are to be feed the king’s food of which they refuse and request a more healthy diet. The head of the eunuchs becomes concerned and expresses that concern to them but they make a deal with him that if the food that they requested does not make them healthier then that given the other students that they will in turn begin to eat the king’s fair. The deal is made and in the end Daniel and his friends are indeed healthier and more clear minded than the others to such an extent that they out perform the others when they are tested by the king.


In Daniel 2 we see the development of the first prophecy in the Book of Daniel given to King Neb. Unable to remember the dream he calls in his soothsayers and astrologers and such forth and commands that they not only interpret the dream but that they recall for him the dream. Failing to do so the king commands all such individuals are to be executed immediately. Being among these are Daniel and his friends. Hearing from the captain of the king’s guard Daniel requests an audience with the king and being granted this audience requests of the king a little time so that he and his friends my inquire of their God the matter in question.

A little while latter Daniel returns to inform the king that God has revealed the matter to him and that he will tell the king the dream and its interpretation. The dream being a stature made of various materials. A head of Gold, Chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of Iron and feet mingled iron and clay.

After describing the statue Daniel then tells the king that he (Babylon) is the Head of Gold, that an inferior kingdom would rise after him in which the silver was its representation, after this kingdom another inferior kingdom represented by brass would rise up and still another kingdom represented by iron would also raise up and that this fourth kingdom would be divided but the strength of the four kingdom would remain but that the clay would keep it divided representing the kingdom being partly strong and partly broken so that it would not cleave within itself, or “one to another”.

It would be during this last phase of the fourth kingdom that God would set up his own kingdom and that this kingdom, God’s kingdom would last forever. This is represented by the stone that strikes the statue in the feet, the stone cut out without hands, and crushes all the kingdoms of the earth so that they are but dust and are blown away with the wind.

Now, this whole statue represents the whole of human history from the time of King Neb’s Babylonian kingdom until the second coming of Christ at the end of time. Daniel 2 is also a complete outline of all the prophecies in the Book of Daniel that are given to Daniel by God.

Ok I’ll stop here. Agree or Disagree.

 

[taikachanz]

Hmm, no response at all, I wonder, is it that you don’t want to play this game? Anybody is welcome to join in here. So, as to my previous post: Agree or Disagree. Now, onto the next portion of this response to Castaway57’s request to see how I came about my theory.

We are now in Daniel 3 where we find Daniel’s three friends engaged in a dispute over idolatry wherein they have been commanded, along with the other wise men and citizens of Babylon, to bow down to a statue that King Neb had commissioned to be built in defiance to the one that was shown to him by God in Chapter 2. This one is, instead, made all of Gold, showing that King Neb’s kingdom would never cease, in essence he was declaring that God’s vision would not come to pass. So he commanded at it’s dedication that when the music of all sorts of instruments were sounded that everyone present were to bow down and worship the statue of Gold that he had had built, failure to do so would result in being cast into a fiery furnace, heated to seven times normal stoking.

Faithful to God’s word the three “worthies” refused to do so to whit they were brought before the king who in turn reiterated his command, giving them another chance to obey, and had the music played again. Again they refused to bow down and were cast into the fiery furnace, at the cost of the soldiers who threw them into the furnace. To the king’s amazement they were not burnt up neither was there to be found any smell of smoke on them. In addition the king observed another person in the furnace with them whom he described as having the “form of the Son of God”. The result of all of this was that the king passed a decree forbidding anybody speaking out against the God of the three “worthies”.

In Chapter 4 King Neb has yet another dream wherein he calls for Daniel to interpret. Daniel does so and King Neb in his vanity causes the prophetic vision to come to pass.

I don’t think I need to explain the whole thing here. If anyone who reads this is not familiar with what happens they can read the whole of the incident themselves.

Chapter 5 is the account of the fall of Babylon under the rule of Belshazzar during a profane feast where in he insults the God of heaven. Daniel is called to interpret some writing that has appeared on the wall of the feast chamber telling Belshazzar the he has be found wanting and that the kingdom was being taken from him and given to the Medes and the Persians, which occurs that very night.

In Chapter 6 we now find Babylon in the hands of Darius and the leading counselor was Daniel. This chapter tells of the jealousy of the other counselors concerning Daniel and their plot to destroy Daniel. Finding no fault that they can bring to the king they then devise a plan in which they can destroy him though his worship of the true God. Convincing the king to pass a decree that no one would be allowed to pray to any god or gods except the king himself the penalty for disobedience to this decree would be that of being thrown into a pit of hungry lions. In his own conceit the king signs the decree and shortly thereafter Daniel is brought before the king being accused of disobeying the decree. When confronted with this by the king Daniel freely admits doing so whereupon the king, sadly and reluctantly, orders Daniel thrown into the lion’s den with the declaration “Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.” With that he retires to his palace and passes the night fasting, listening to no music nor sleeping the whole night.

In the morning he returns and calls down to Daniel to see if he is still alive. Daniel answers back, “O king, live for ever. My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions’ mouths, that they have not hurt me: for as much as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt.”

Relieved and joyously the king has Daniel removed from the pit. Recognizing now the purpose of the decree he was convinced to sign he casts the culprits and their families into the pit of lions and before their bodies hit the floor their bones are broken and they are torn asunder.

Ok, Agree or Disagree.

 

[taikachanz]

Ok, so still no yeas or nays, didn’t really expect much of a response the first few chapters, they're pretty much straight forward. The remaining however may produce a response so I will take them one at a time.

Chapter 7, here Daniel returns us to when Belshazzar was still king and before Babylon was conquered by the Medes and the Persians. I do not understand why Daniel chose to place this writing after the fall of Babylon. However, it may have been done in this way to maintain continuity in understanding the remaining descriptions of vision in the rest of the book.

Daniel is given a vision in which he sees and describes four beasts and their activities. In this same vision he was shown the meaning of the beasts (starting at verse 17.

There is no actual explanation as to who these beasts represent, but, if we return to Daniel 2 and take the statue vision into consideration we find that the Lion, which was a symbol used by Babylon at the time and we look into history then we see that the first beast represents Babylon before its fall and therefore must conclude that the following beast also represent those kingdoms within the statue that come after thus we have:

First Beast: Lion like = Babylon (Gold)
Second Beast: Bear like = Mede/Persia (Silver)
Third Beast: Leopard like = Greece (Brass)
Four Beast: Dreadful and Terrible and exceedingly strong with iron teeth. = Rome (Iron)

In the fourth beast we see ten horns, representing ten kings (verse 24), and a little horn (king or ruler or man of great influence) arose among these other ten and plucks out or eliminates three of the original (verse 24). This horn also sets himself up as a great ruler, speaking very great things (boasting and bragging and blaspheming) and wars against Gods people until judgment comes. This means that this beast will reign in some form until the Lord comes to gather in his people for judgment does not come until his return. However, there will be a period in which he will be subdued, not destroyed though it may seem that he is (we find this in Revelation 13:3 concerning the beast that comes out of the sea. Read the whole of this chapter and carefully observe the similarities in the beast there as to those described in Daniel 7) In verse 25 we find the length of time this little horn will do his deeds “time, times and the dividing of time.” It has been taken by most Biblical scholars that this means 3 ½ years or equal to 1260 days and I will stick to this as will be seen later this makes perfect sense. It is also recognized that in prophecy a day equals 1 year and therefore it can be concluded that the little horn power will rule in power 1260 years.

What happens after the 1260 years? Verse 26 states “But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy … unto the end.” The question is “who is the ‘they’”? I contend that the they are the remaining seven “kings” that the little horn is exercising power over and that, after they subdue the little horn and have thought to have destroyed it, they themselves bring havoc upon the world destroying and consuming that which the little horn had thought to rule over. This is supposed to continue “unto the end.” The end being the judgment which thereafter the saints, with Christ, will rule (not withstanding the 1000 year interim that proceeds the resurrection of the damned and the recreation of the heavens and the earth. See Revelation 20)

It would appear that Daniel did not speak to anybody concerning this vision as he states that he “kept the matter in my heart.” This may or may not be the case, what matters, however, is that he did write it down and pass it on for us to study and unravel.

This ends Chapter 7