Revelations.... true meaning?

[TheseBlindEyes]

Ok... big question. I am taking a Faith and Franciscanism class at a University and the class is based upon the Catholic Religion. My professor was discussing with us the process scholars use to study the bible and I felt that I strongly disagreed with a few things that he had said (and I am actually Catholic). He said that scholars actually do not believe that Revelations is actually a prediciton of the future but that (very sorry if this part is confusing, as I didn't quite understand what he was saying myself) Revelations is a sort of look at what happened then, when Jesus died on the cross and so forth and is not a prophecy of the end of times in the future. This completely contradicts what I have believed and completely took me off guard (I always felt that it was a message of what is to come). I'm still very agitated and I'm hoping that someone will please clear this up for me. Excuse me for being ignorant about any facts here, I'm simply stating how I interpreted what he said. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[clinzey]

He said that scholars actually do not believe that Revelations is actually a prediciton of the future but that Revelations is a sort of look at what happened then, when Jesus died on the cross and so forth and is not a prophecy of the end of times in the future.

TheseBlindEyes,
I believe the name of the book is Revelation (in the singular). We don't use the Greek title anymore (Apocalypse of John).

Your professor was right about the many scholars' opinion on the nature of Revelation. The book is written within a particular genre called apocalyptic literature, and it is the nature of this genre to write about present difficulties and woes from a futuristic and eschatological perspective. This style of writing is seen in the OT, NT, and many other noncanonical books. If you actually look at the major ideas presented in any apocalyptic works you will see that they all contain similar themes - things are bad, things will get worse, but in the end God and goodness will triumph and the good people will be rewarded. This is a great message of hope to suffering churches (past and present), but the details within the revelation should not be expected to find literal and complete fulfillment.

 

[BK]

I disagree-I feel the book of Revelation is depicting end-time events. You are correct in saying the whole Bible follows the same theme of happenings throughout. I believe the events recorded by John will be very literally fulfilled-leading up to the second coming and literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. I'll go one step farther and say that I strongly believe that that time is here now or even at the door.

 

[aggie03]

I don't believe that Revelation teaches a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. I tend to agree with clinzey. A major theme in Revelation is that of overcoming.

 

[clinzey]

I disagree-I feel the book of Revelation is depicting end-time events. You are correct in saying the whole Bible follows the same theme of happenings throughout.

I didn't say the whole Bible - I said every work that falls within the genre of apocalyptic literature. In actuality, apocalyptic works make up only a very small portion of the Bible.

I believe the events recorded by John will be very literally fulfilled-leading up to the second coming and literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

The book was written for specific people at a specific time and place. Read Revelation 1:1-3 - The author claims that what is talked about in the book will be fulfilled soon, that those who hear it will be blessed, and that the time is near. This is simply what is done in this literary style and is not meant to be read as a blueprint for the far off future.... In apocalyptic literature, the time is always now. The time is always the future. It is a combination of the hear and now with the yet to come. But it is not meant as a literal forcasting of the future.

I'll go one step farther and say that I strongly believe that that time is here now or even at the door.

Matt. 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour...."
Luke 12:40b "the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

It is foolish and arrogant to think you know the time.

 

[BK]

True we do not know the day or hour but are told to interpret the times and know when the end is near. I was meerly going beyond the apocolypic works by saying the entire Bible carries that same theme throughout.

Aggie, what do you believe if not a literal reign?

 

[aggie03]

I believe in a literal 1 Thessalonians 4

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ASV

But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; (17) then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

According to this, Jesus never sets His feet again on the earth, but rather we go to meet Him up in the air. This is according to what Paul has said "by the word of the Lord".

I look forward to hearing back from you This could be a very interesting discussion indeed

 

[Sweetbriar]

In agreement with Clinzey on this.

 

[BK]

That is usually the passage used to describe what some would call the rapture of the church. Whether or not it's the same event as the second coming, many churches are divided on. I've never heard of the idea of Jesus never physically touching down on the earth before, that's very interesting-can you expound on the idea a little for me?

 

[clinzey]

True we do not know the day or hour but are told to interpret the times and know when the end is near.

No, we are not told that. We should remember that the Bible was written for specific people in a specific time. They were told to know when the end was near. It is a message of hope and waiting - expecting the end when God will make right all wrongs. He hasn't done that yet. The writers did not lie to people back then. The messages are symbolic and may apply to many times, but there is never a complete fulfillment of "prophecy."

The evil characters that persecute the faithful in all apocalyptic (like the books of Daniel or Revelation) are archetypes, not specific people. The evil archetype is fulfilled throughout history by many different people (Nero, Domitian, Hitler, Castro, etc...). The point is this - even though the faithful do and will continue to suffer at the hands of evil, in the end God will triumph. Beyond that there is nothing specific we can do. Every generation has had people saying, "This is it - the Lord will come soon." Generations to come will continue to have people saying it.

 

[BK]

So are you saying the Bible was not written for us today and the world will continue on the way it always has with God eventually prevailing through tribulations? I can see some of what you are saying clearly, like the same books are applicable to many different times throughout history. That makes perfect sense to me, but I don't see where your saying it leads to. Are you saying Jesus isn't going to return at all and things will continue on like this forever?

 

[Blessed2003]

I have a question, does anyone know the "story" behind John writing Revelation? Who did he write it to, and why?
I have heard it was written symbolically because of the persecution of the church at the time, though I honestly have no idea!
B

 

[BK]

Same boat...I'm trying to understand the different views here as well.

 

[clinzey]

So are you saying the Bible was not written for us today

That is preciscely what I am saying. You also know this is true. The beginnings of many of the books are specifically addressed to individuals or churches that died thousands of years ago. Understand, just because I see the Bible as not written to us does not mean that I believe it is meaningless to us. It does mean that we have to dig deeper and harder to find out what was going on in that time, what the writer was trying to address, how the writer was trying to address it, and how the original audience would have understood it. The Bible is not some simple book that can be read at surface value. Even though it was not written for us it is still valuable for us. It is God's word - but his word to specific times and places.

the world will continue on the way it always has with God eventually prevailing through tribulations?

I don't think we can see it any other way. The emphasis, of course, is that God eventually will prevail. The wicked will be punished and the righteous rewarded.

Are you saying Jesus isn't going to return at all and things will continue on like this forever?

No, I'm not saying this. I am saying that the book of Revelation is not a guidebook or manual for how or when it will happen.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Blind Eyes:

Post a question like this and you’re guaranteed to get everything from soup to nuts. Here is my unique contribution. There are four ways in which the Revelation is read. Some read it basically as a prophecy, some read it as a history, and some read it as an overview of church history (past and future) from the beginning to the time when Jesus comes. The fourth view (which I favor) is that the Revelation is not discussing history so much as it is presenting spiritual truths that are applicable for God’s people in every age.

Each of these views has elements of truth. Note that I framed my own perspective with some care. Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[Reader Nilus]

My two cents worth, is that Jacques Ellul's book The Apocalypse is the sanest commentary on Revelation. He basically views the book as just that Revelation of what happened in the Incarnation from heaven's point of view.
Jeff the Finn

 

[thekingster]

I agree with the soup to nuts theory...but I have to side with the "already, not yet" sentimentality.

BLUF: Revelation was regarded as a spurious book for centuries by the early church fathers.
BLUF: The overarching message of The Revelation is that, no matter what, good prevails over evil.
BLUF: There is good evidence to support that the prophecies of Revelation occurred in the first century. I realize this throws many eschatological theories into a conundrum...and so it should. Too much of what is propagated today is based on unhealthy, uncontextual conjecture.

How should we live, then? With a joyful expectation of the future...no matter how it plays out. I was once asked if I was Pre, Mid, or Post...I said, "Neither. I am 'defi'. It's definitely going to happen...one way or the other."

Textual criticism is fun, isn't it?

Keep reading and keep praying!
Steven King
The Kingster†

 

[Covenant Heart]

I agree with the soup to nuts theory...but I have to side with the "already, not yet" sentimentality.

There's the ticket!

One writer has said that the Revelation is essentially a war scroll that demands the Christian's active participation in the divine war against evil. Christ is victor. He has won already, but the struggle has not yet ended. With the faithful in every age, we must stand in our place in our time until Jesus comes.

The Revelation is the capstone of the Scriptures. I believe that it is critically important to live out of the context of the vision that it describes. To lock that vision into the past or into the future denies the church what is vital to our mission. Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Well, nobody from the 80s knew what it meant and they made a pile of money off being incorrect. One thing I do know about Revelation is that it was writtne to encourage persecuted believers to keep the faith.

 

[Faithful1]

Ok... big question. ...He said that scholars actually do not believe that ..... Revelations is a sort of look at what happened then, when Jesus died on the cross .... and is not a prophecy of the end of times in the future. This completely contradicts what I have believed ....

THe Book of Revelation itself claims to be a book of prophecy: "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this PROPHECY...." - John

Obviously some scholars can't hear.

So keep on believing what the Bible says about itself, TheseBlindEyes. You're not so blind after all; According to this verse, you are blessed.

Faithful1