Revelations 7...

[phnx]

Ok im still very new to christianity and understanding all thats said in the bible so i could use some help on this.

Revelation 7 explains how '144,000' people are chosen by God.

I have a Jehovas witness friend and dont quite know how to answer his claims that only 140,000 people will ever go to heaven. Personally i dont take the 144,000 literally as with a lot of examples with numbers used in the bible.

Some help please

 

[Serapha]

Ok im still very new to christianity and understanding all thats said in the bible so i could use some help on this.

Revelation 7 explains how '144,000' people are chosen by God.

I have a Jehovas witness friend and dont quite know how to answer his claims that only 140,000 people will ever go to heaven. Personally i dont take the 144,000 literally as with a lot of examples with numbers used in the bible.

Some help please

Hi there!




Yes, do take the number of 144,000 literally, for they will be 144,000 jews who will be the most magnificent witnesses to have ever crossed this earth.


What you should not take literally is that the 144,000 are Jehovah's Witnesses. Their teachings are not foundational truths on biblical teachings. Until you are anchored in the true Word, it probably would be better for you to avoid conversations with a JW unless you have a fellow Christian believer in the conversation. Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to give controlled answers, and have an answer from the Watchtower "Pat Answer Index" for every subject.


What you need to ask your Jehovah's Witness friend is if they take the Bible alone, or do they rely on the teachings of Watchtower Society. Watchtower maintains that "their" teachings override the Bible. Since you are new to Christianity, that is why you should avoid conversations with a JW on how the Bible should be interpreted. JW's are not "Christians" in that they do not believe in the Christ of the New Testament, but instead, in the Christ of Watchtower teachings who is not God


~serapha~

 

[roadie432002]

Serapha I agree with you.to amplify this, the 144,000 are Jewish remnant spared from death during the Great Tribulation.They have been sealed by The Lamb and have his mark on their forehead to protect them.They will preach the Gospel of The Kingdom during the Great Tribulation.

 

[webboffin]

So turning people away from Jehovah Witnesses just because you choose not to believe in what they believe [If you really know what they do believe in]. Shame. What you afraid of someone might believing them rather than what you personally want to believe.
You say JW non Christian, well they recognise Jesus Christ and place him in correct position to Jehovah [God]. But they go out and spread the Good News which is more than I see most so called "christian" denominations doing, who rather you go to them then them come to you.
What I am saying is let someone decide for themselves in what they are to believe, they have their own intelligence. Take each denomination you are finding out about seriously and consider the Truths in what complies with the Bible. That should show you who is the sheep and who are the goats. Telling someone to stay away from JW shows ignorance or worried maybe they may find the Truth, let the person searching decide on accurate evidence then he or she can make a reliable choice.
If you do wish to take someone with Bible knowledge with you should you wish to arrange with them a home Bible study then please do so. Jehovah Witnesses don't mind this at all.

If you have any questions or doubts then ask a baptised Jehovah Witness and let them answer for what they stand for.

 

[Serapha]

So turning people away from Jehovah Witnesses just because you choose not to believe in what they believe [If you really know what they do believe in]. Shame. What you afraid of someone might believing them rather than what you personally want to believe.
You say JW non Christian, well they recognise Jesus Christ and place him in correct position to Jehovah [God]. But they go out and spread the Good News which is more than I see most so called "christian" denominations doing, who rather you go to them then them come to you.
What I am saying is let someone decide for themselves in what they are to believe, they have their own intelligence. Take each denomination you are finding out about seriously and consider the Truths in what complies with the Bible. That should show you who is the sheep and who are the goats. Telling someone to stay away from JW shows ignorance or worried maybe they may find the Truth, let the person searching decide on accurate evidence then he or she can make a reliable choice.
If you do wish to take someone with Bible knowledge with you should you wish to arrange with them a home Bible study then please do so. Jehovah Witnesses don't mind this at all.

If you have any questions or doubts then ask a baptised Jehovah Witness and let them answer for what they stand for.

Hi there!




Your posting has nothing to do with the exposition of the Revelation passage. If you want to pick up the discussion, then move your statement to the Unorthodox forum which is the only forum where you may post as you did here. Send me a link, and we will discuss it. If there is anything in my posting which isn't true according to Watchtower teachings in relation to the Word of God, then please, correct me, for the Bible is specific in teaching that the 144,000 are Jews.

Telling someone to stay away from JW shows ignorance or worried maybe they may find the Truth,

Thank you for the kind comments....



~serapha~

 

[webboffin]

When someone states they should avoid contact with Jehovah Witnesses then you are dictating. If you want to a level debate on anything in the Watchtower then you need to ask a Jehovah Witness which you, serapha ,are telling people not to do.

 

[Serapha]

When someone states they should avoid contact with Jehovah Witnesses then you are dictating. If you want to a level debate on anything in the Watchtower then you need to ask a Jehovah Witness which you, serapha ,are telling people not to do.

My friend,


If you have a problem with my response, then report it to a moderator, but don't harass me. While you are reporting my response as inappropriate, insure that you tell the moderator that you are posting on "Christians Only" forums whereas, by the definition of this internet site, anyone in your denomination (Kingdom Hall) is not considered to be "Christian". I recommend that while you are living in a glass house that you don't throw stones.


Now, may we return to the subject of the thread which is the 144,000 of Revelation.


~serapha~

 

[webboffin]

Just observing your suggestions

 

[phnx]

Hi there!




Yes, do take the number of 144,000 literally, for they will be 144,000 jews who will be the most magnificent witnesses to have ever crossed this earth.


What you should not take literally is that the 144,000 are Jehovah's Witnesses. Their teachings are not foundational truths on biblical teachings. Until you are anchored in the true Word, it probably would be better for you to avoid conversations with a JW unless you have a fellow Christian believer in the conversation. Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to give controlled answers, and have an answer from the Watchtower "Pat Answer Index" for every subject.


What you need to ask your Jehovah's Witness friend is if they take the Bible alone, or do they rely on the teachings of Watchtower Society. Watchtower maintains that "their" teachings override the Bible. Since you are new to Christianity, that is why you should avoid conversations with a JW on how the Bible should be interpreted. JW's are not "Christians" in that they do not believe in the Christ of the New Testament, but instead, in the Christ of Watchtower teachings who is not God


~serapha~

Thanks for your response

I don't mind talking to Jehovas witnesses as most of the time i have my parents (both christians) to help out on the obscure verses they like to quote above anything else.

Don't Jehovas witnesses believe that 144,000 are the 'chosen ones' as elect by them i presume, and the rest stay back on earth ?

 

[pmarquette]

Ok im still very new to christianity and understanding all thats said in the bible so i could use some help on this.

Revelation 7 explains how '144,000' people are chosen by God.
read the whole context dude .....
144,000 Jewish , male , virgins , of the 12 tribes of Israel , end times evangalists

I have a Jehovas witness friend and dont quite know how to answer his claims that only 140,000 people will ever go to heaven. Personally i dont take the 144,000 literally as with a lot of examples with numbers used in the bible.
so if you are a woman , ain't going ....
married , ain't going.....
not Jewish , not going ....
what the book says .... exegensis
not what Wm T. Russel said .... isogensis
Some help please

 

[Serapha]

Don't Jehovas witnesses believe that 144,000 are the 'chosen ones' as elect by them i presume, and the rest stay back on earth ?

Hi there!




Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the 144,000 are those who are within the New Heaven, and that all other are on the New Earth. If you view any of the Watchtower literature, you will see the beautiful greenery and growth that is portrayed for the future "New Earth".


But biblically, there is a problem with any of those pictures, and that comes from Revelation 21:1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


If there is "no more sea" then there is no more water cycle to support the "green earth" that is portrayed in all the literature. Without water, there is no blood as blood is 78% water. That will be one of the differences in the physical body of now and the glorified body of heaven. This body is physical with flesh, blood, and bone. The glorified body has no water because there is no water cycle, and is simply flesh and bone. Remember when Christ told Thomas to stick his hand into His side to feel the piercing? And how Christ moved through the door after His resurrection, then being in some form of glorified body?



Interestingly, the New Earth also has no indication that there is a sun to grow the "green earth" that is portrayed, after all, the New Heaven has no sun for the Glory of God is the light. And there are gates that go from the New Heaven to the New Earth, that people may pass through, but outside the gates of heaven are all the bad things left... "the dogs, sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehoods."


Do you want to be outside the New Heaven?


~serapha~

 

[webboffin]

gosh, you really do need to talk to a JW

 

[webboffin]

oops sorry forgot, can't do that can you!

 

[pmarquette]

problem is that they take part of the verse they like 144,000 sealed ( saved ? )
and eliminate who the 144,000 are , and what their mission is ....

they add to the book , they rewrite the book , violate Revelation 22.18-19 ...

 

[webboffin]

problem is that they take part of the verse they like 144,000 sealed ( saved ? )
and eliminate who the 144,000 are , and what their mission is ....

they add to the book , they rewrite the book , violate Revelation 22.18-19 ...

The 144, 000 according to the Bible does not mean only 144,000 Jehovah Witnesses will be saved (which much anti-JW hate literature inaccurately claim) Jehovah will create a new heaven and a new Earth and the former things will pass and Satan with his followers and the unfaithful are destroyed)
144,000 is the new body in heaven that govern over the new Kingdom on Earth.
The Earth is to be restored as God originally intended for mankind Jehovah's faithful followers. Jehovah's faithful ones who are not the one's going to heaven are to inherit the new Earth and live forever without pain, death or evil suffering ever again. This is really restoring to mankind the Paradise that Adam and Eve ruined with disobedience caused by Satan.

The Lord's prayer talks about God's will for mankind.

Our Father; hallowed be thy name. (what is the name of God that is hallowed? Jehovah!)
Thy Kingdom come (What kingdom is this that will come?)
Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven (Is this talking about future Earth as we know God's will is not being done now on Earth)
Jesus also preached about the coming Kingdom (Paradise) often.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new Heaven and a new Earth, because the first heaven and the first earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone.
Rev 21:2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There won't be death anymore. There won't be any grief, crying, or pain, because the first things have disappeared
Rev 21:8 But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev 22:10 Then he said to me, "Don't seal up the words of the prophecy in this book, because the time is near.

 

[webboffin]

Funny how heresy is brought up when Jehovah Witnesses are mentioned when so many churches support idolatry (worshipping, praying, touching, kissing to statues of Mary or Jesus and crucifixes).

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stond, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk:
2Co 6:16 What agreement can a temple of God make with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said: "I will live and walk among them. I will be their God, and they will be my people."
Isa 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

It can be clearly seen that God detests idols and images even in his name. This is just one example of heresy of the Truth that is practised in churches.

 

[webboffin]

they add to the book , they rewrite the book , violate Revelation 22.18-19 ...

Sounds like the King James Bible. That has spurious texts added to. It is rewritten as it is not the original scriptures or are you meaning translated?
Is it accurate to use for common purposes? Mostly yes!

 

[webboffin]

Oh one last thing.........

My friend,


If you have a problem with my response, then report it to a moderator, but don't harass me. While you are reporting my response as inappropriate, insure that you tell the moderator that you are posting on "Christians Only" forums whereas, by the definition of this internet site, anyone in your denomination (Kingdom Hall) is not considered to be "Christian". I recommend that while you are living in a glass house that you don't throw stones.
~serapha~

It seems that the churches seem to think they have the power to decide who is a Christian denomination (I have serious reservations that they even know what the Bible teaches) but the forum rules apply that you should not run down those that believe to be Christian. Like I would not run down you and call you non Christian - I rather let Jehovah decide.
Considering so many truths are ignored in the churches (such as the above posting on the practice of idolatry in churches as one of many things) that they feel they have the God given right to accuse JW of heresy. Work that one out! Then you say keep away from JWs but if you really think you have the truth then shouldn't you be welcoming these so called "misguided" JWs and pointing out the error of their ways and thinking not just shut the door on their faces and hope they go away! JW go out, travel to preach and spread the Good News as the Bible teaches (like Jesus himself did) not wait for people to come and collect it should they happen to drop by a church on Sunday.
Most people don't consider religion unless someone takes the time to approach them and show them the Truth.
Probably why most churches overall have shrinking attendances and Kingdom Hall seats are filling more and more.

 

[nycbeena]

^ i agree with every single post u have mad..One of the reasons i was I hesitated to try and have full faith in christianity is because it sems that , christians think if u dont do it their way then u have no chance..and ur going down instead of up there with the lord...and i say how i that fair to peopel who hae no chance to become a chrisitian or was raised in iran and taught to hate christianity from birth are they automatically condemed? or is it only neccasary for u to have A strong faith in god and live life as righteious as u know how..and u can still be welcomed in his home...

 

[grandad43]

I just had to say a word here as my son-in-law is a Jehovah witness.
I cannot say that I understand who the 1,4440 will be other then the true remnant of the tribes of Israel. (God's chosen people)
I do know from experience that JW's get very agitated when you question their interpretation of the gospels.
It could be said that their greatest error is to deny Jesus his cross. Mat 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.