Responding to Justa's Comments On Evolution

Oncedeceived

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Calling it information is again begging the question, as it's not information in the way you would like to imply, it's chemistry, and interesting link, though funny how it actually backs up my side of this, you can compare it to computer code, but you can only compare it, in computers errors cause problems, in DNA they ultimatly lead to new life forms and novel features, scientists speak in anologies and best comparisons, but it doesn't make these things and not perfect ones.

DNA is a self replicating, self changing strand of chemicals, that interact to form living things, it's the interaction with the genes and the other parts of the cell that form life, the DNA creatures proteins that intearct with other proteins and the cell to form a living body, it's closer to oragami then a blueprint. A change in the way a protein, changes how it folds, wich changes how it interacts with other proteins wich alter the shape, and function of the living organism.

I don't see how this counts as code, or instructions, it's chemicals creating chemicals that interact with chemicals that happen to form complex structures, that allow something to survive, or do better. There is no goal in the DNA, no plan. it's all chemistry all the way down.
Information is information whether or not it is chemistry or not. DNA is a code, a code that we in fact have cracked and read. It is a history, it is an instruction manual and it is a blueprint for all the cells in our bodies and in all living organisms.
 
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loveofourlord

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regardless of what you might think, DNA is an information carrier.
not only does it instruct how to produce proteins, but when as in cases of puberty.
DNA contains code that isn't used, and this code must somehow be skipped over, it takes information to do that.
to imply DNA isn't information is simply wrong.

To imply it's information in the way you are is disengenous and nothing but a equivication, because it's like X, there fore it's X, thats not true.

The code is skipped over because there are chemical chains that signify where a gene is, this is due to chemical reactions yet again, betwen the start of a gene and the mechanism that creates the proteins. This is entirely chemical.

To say it's information impolies it's some how more then chemicals.
 
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loveofourlord

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I find the evidence for evolution compelling, intricate and amazing as well. I don't however believe the notion that this process alone, nor that it is a mindless, unguided, undirected process with no plan or goal. Evolution as defined is correct, but claims based upon it I feel are not in keeping with the evidence. Once you know God is real, you have the most important knowledge of all. :)

Now how are our arguments showing flawed reasoning and fallacies? I don't know what evidence is leading you to believe that God had no input into the process, but I could put forth many evidences that would cast great doubt on that opinion.

Show some evidence that isn't argument from ignorance or incredulity? I believe god exists, but I don't see a reason to insert him into everything especially where he's not needed, it's insulting and rude to pressume you know that he HAS to do X or Y. For me I don't see any reason to pressume he did, as the process of evolution doesn't require him to be the eternal tinkerer that fixes every little mistake. To say X feature requires god, or the process that fixes X requires god, is to presume that god couldn't set things up from the start.

When you say something like, "The bacteria Flagellum was fixed because it had extra DNA that was redundant like you did before is disengenous, belies the facts, and is ignoring information that is there. You try to insert claims of how something was done that arn't there. Tell me, do you and just accept common ancestor? Do you accept that all life came from primative life, wether through god tinkering every minute, or evolution?
 
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Loudmouth

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For those interested, Tom Schneider has already demonstrated how evolution increases biological information.

"How do genetic systems gain information by evolutionary processes? Answering this question precisely requires a robust, quantitative measure of information. Fortunately, 50 years ago Claude Shannon defined information as a decrease in the uncertainty of a receiver. For molecular systems, uncertainty is closely related to entropy and hence has clear connections to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. These aspects of information theory have allowed the development of a straightforward and practical method of measuring information in genetic control systems. Here this method is used to observe information gain in the binding sites for an artificial ‘protein’ in a computer simulation of evolution. The simulation begins with zero information and, as in naturally occurring genetic systems, the information measured in the fully evolved binding sites is close to that needed to locate the sites in the genome. The transition is rapid, demonstrating that information gain can occur by punctuated equilibrium."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC102656/
 
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loveofourlord

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So if evolution ended with the common ancestor of both the chimp and human it wouldn't have mattered?

We didn't have a soul then untill probably around 10-20 thousand years ago, back when we evolved enough that we had the right charecteristics.
 
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bhsmte

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Show some evidence that isn't argument from ignorance or incredulity? I believe god exists, but I don't see a reason to insert him into everything especially where he's not needed, it's insulting and rude to pressume you know that he HAS to do X or Y. For me I don't see any reason to pressume he did, as the process of evolution doesn't require him to be the eternal tinkerer that fixes every little mistake. To say X feature requires god, or the process that fixes X requires god, is to presume that god couldn't set things up from the start.

When you say something like, "The bacteria Flagellum was fixed because it had extra DNA that was redundant like you did before is disengenous, belies the facts, and is ignoring information that is there. You try to insert claims of how something was done that arn't there. Tell me, do you and just accept common ancestor? Do you accept that all life came from primative life, wether through god tinkering every minute, or evolution?

These claims you discuss must be inserted by some, or their personal faith belief doesn't work and we can't have that.
 
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loveofourlord

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I would assume then that you argue that God wound up the clock and let it go? Yet, there is no evidence that life could have gotten started without the universe having the parameters that it does for life to even exist. Then we move to the earth and the necessary elements required being present. We then move to the first life which has no evidence whatsoever but the chicken or the egg in this process gives no support to an unaided origin. We move on to reproducing life and that in itself is so complex that evolution can't explain it as evolution didn't evolve. So what "evidence" exactly has lead you to believe that God was not needed?


First he created the unierse with the parameters as I said so that doesn't count.

Second on earth having the nescary elements, many of those elements are found throughout our own solar system let alone galaxy/universe, on the things that don't such as distance from the sun and so on, don't require any form of planning. Given the size of our galaxy, the number of galaxies and size of the known universe, there is nothing more needed, Given enough planets there are likly many planets out there with the criteria, heck there may be multiple places in our own solar system with life, only earth likly has intelligent life, but doesn't mean there isn't life.

And on unaided, we have strong evidence of these things happening, we havn't recreated or created a perfect from amnio acids to RNA yet, but we've come a long ways and shown that things are at the least possible. Again Abiogensis if it happened the way scientist think it did is nothing more then chemistry, wich goes back to the earlier talk, chemistry happens without guidance, it's no more a miracle that in the right condition hydrogen and oxygen turn into water, then that abiogensis would happen if the right conditions are available. Given it's a chemical reaction you can have billions of reactions a second, doing random combinations untill the right one works. It's like a lock with a key that changes it's settings constantly, and the lock has billions of combinations that work, now imagine that lock having billions of openings to open it and billions of keys all trying combinations. Now imagine billions of these locks around the universe each one having this process, it's only einevitable that a lock would get a key that opens it.

what seems implausible becomes inevitable.

And there is no need to explain reproducing life that is complex, because that works the same way as the lock, but even further, there was no goal other then towards something akin to humans, the path, the direction it could take was nearly infinite, for every complex organ, or feature that evolved, there were near infantly complex versions that could have evolved, but there is still some limitations, such as we see in convergent evolution, we see the same form evolving over and over because it's the most efficient, and something we see in many programs that use evolution algorythems to create simulated life. Very complex things will form using processes even less complex then evolution and DNA.
 
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loveofourlord

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What's your basis for that claim?

Because thats when abouts humans started to get the technology and had the methods to go from thousands of years of hunter gatherer to civilization, when we discovered agriculture and such so something happened around then that changed everything.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Show some evidence that isn't argument from ignorance or incredulity? I believe god exists, but I don't see a reason to insert him into everything especially where he's not needed, it's insulting and rude to pressume you know that he HAS to do X or Y. For me I don't see any reason to pressume he did, as the process of evolution doesn't require him to be the eternal tinkerer that fixes every little mistake. To say X feature requires god, or the process that fixes X requires god, is to presume that god couldn't set things up from the start.
The Bacterial Flagellum is just one of many molecular machines that I believe to be God's signature in Creation. I happen to believe Christian Theology is correct as I know that God is the Christian God, that Jesus did walk the earth and that we are suppose to see design in the creation. It is not presumptuous to conclude something that God says He put into His creation to declare His existence. God is outside of time, so He would not have to "tinker" with anything alone the way but we are looking back into time at His work.

When you say something like, "The bacteria Flagellum was fixed because it had extra DNA that was redundant like you did before is disengenous, belies the facts, and is ignoring information that is there. You try to insert claims of how something was done that arn't there. Tell me, do you and just accept common ancestor? Do you accept that all life came from primative life, wether through god tinkering every minute, or evolution?
I don't know what you are talking about I've never said anything like that.
 
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Oncedeceived

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First he created the unierse with the parameters as I said so that doesn't count.

Second on earth having the nescary elements, many of those elements are found throughout our own solar system let alone galaxy/universe, on the things that don't such as distance from the sun and so on, don't require any form of planning. Given the size of our galaxy, the number of galaxies and size of the known universe, there is nothing more needed, Given enough planets there are likly many planets out there with the criteria, heck there may be multiple places in our own solar system with life, only earth likly has intelligent life, but doesn't mean there isn't life.
This is a complete paragraph of assertion and opinion without any evidence to support it. Why do you accept that the universe and it's parameters are evidence of God but the rest isn't? How did you arrive at the conclusion that the universe and it fine tuned parameters are the result of God's creation but the planet and life on earth isn't? This is inconsistent with your own view let alone with Christian Theology.

And on unaided, we have strong evidence of these things happening, we havn't recreated or created a perfect from amnio acids to RNA yet, but we've come a long ways and shown that things are at the least possible.
No, we haven't really done anything of merit now anymore than all those years ago when the first experiments were done.

Again Abiogensis if it happened the way scientist think it did is nothing more then chemistry, wich goes back to the earlier talk, chemistry happens without guidance, it's no more a miracle that in the right condition hydrogen and oxygen turn into water, then that abiogensis would happen if the right conditions are available.

Except that it doesn't happen, hasn't been shown possible and even if it did would not eliminate the need of God to set the whole thing rolling as you have yourself accepted.

Given it's a chemical reaction you can have billions of reactions a second, doing random combinations untill the right one works. It's like a lock with a key that changes it's settings constantly, and the lock has billions of combinations that work, now imagine that lock having billions of openings to open it and billions of keys all trying combinations. Now imagine billions of these locks around the universe each one having this process, it's only einevitable that a lock would get a key that opens it.
Nice story but there is no evidence to support your position.

what seems implausible becomes inevitable.
Except of course that there is no evidence for that happening.

And there is no need to explain reproducing life that is complex, because that works the same way as the lock, but even further, there was no goal other then towards something akin to humans, the path, the direction it could take was nearly infinite, for every complex organ, or feature that evolved, there were near infantly complex versions that could have evolved, but there is still some limitations, such as we see in convergent evolution, we see the same form evolving over and over because it's the most efficient, and something we see in many programs that use evolution algorythems to create simulated life. Very complex things will form using processes even less complex then evolution and DNA.[/Quote]
More assertions and no evidence to provide to support it. The evidence shows that complexity was there right there in the beginning.
 
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Oncedeceived

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For those interested, Tom Schneider has already demonstrated how evolution increases biological information.

"How do genetic systems gain information by evolutionary processes? Answering this question precisely requires a robust, quantitative measure of information. Fortunately, 50 years ago Claude Shannon defined information as a decrease in the uncertainty of a receiver. For molecular systems, uncertainty is closely related to entropy and hence has clear connections to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. These aspects of information theory have allowed the development of a straightforward and practical method of measuring information in genetic control systems. Here this method is used to observe information gain in the binding sites for an artificial ‘protein’ in a computer simulation of evolution. The simulation begins with zero information and, as in naturally occurring genetic systems, the information measured in the fully evolved binding sites is close to that needed to locate the sites in the genome. The transition is rapid, demonstrating that information gain can occur by punctuated equilibrium."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC102656/
Punctuated equilibrium was a ad hoc explanation for things gradual evolution would have been falsified for.
 
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justlookinla

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Because thats when abouts humans started to get the technology and had the methods to go from thousands of years of hunter gatherer to civilization, when we discovered agriculture and such so something happened around then that changed everything.

Could be just blind mutation suddenly creating genetic information which resulted in an increase in intelligence and ability?
 
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loveofourlord

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Could be just blind mutation suddenly creating genetic information which resulted in an increase in intelligence and ability?

yes, but if it reached a goal that god have then that is up to him.

So do you accept common descent?
 
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justlookinla

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yes, but if it reached a goal that god have then that is up to him.

I'm interested in how you reconcile that with the creation story of the bible.

So do you accept common descent?

No. I accept common building blocks.
 
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loveofourlord

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This is a complete paragraph of assertion and opinion without any evidence to support it. Why do you accept that the universe and it's parameters are evidence of God but the rest isn't? How did you arrive at the conclusion that the universe and it fine tuned parameters are the result of God's creation but the planet and life on earth isn't? This is inconsistent with your own view let alone with Christian Theology.

No, we haven't really done anything of merit now anymore than all those years ago when the first experiments were done.



Except that it doesn't happen, hasn't been shown possible and even if it did would not eliminate the need of God to set the whole thing rolling as you have yourself accepted.

Nice story but there is no evidence to support your position.

Except of course that there is no evidence for that happening.

And there is no need to explain reproducing life that is complex, because that works the same way as the lock, but even further, there was no goal other then towards something akin to humans, the path, the direction it could take was nearly infinite, for every complex organ, or feature that evolved, there were near infantly complex versions that could have evolved, but there is still some limitations, such as we see in convergent evolution, we see the same form evolving over and over because it's the most efficient, and something we see in many programs that use evolution algorythems to create simulated life. Very complex things will form using processes even less complex then evolution and DNA.
More assertions and no evidence to provide to support it. The evidence shows that complexity was there right there in the beginning.[/QUOTE]

Because it comes down to where is god needed, we know he's not needed for planetary formation, galaxy formation, solar system formation and so on, because we have all the evidence of these things happening naturally, we can see them happening naturally, so why asert something we don't need? And I'm not making assertions here, we have the methods and know why these things could happen without god being the ultimate OCD micromanager. And my theology is to go where the evidence leads, I believe in god because I've had the interactions and seen things that lead me to believe in him, I believe in Jesus because it fits the evidence to me.

But when we see everthing after the big bang there is no need to insert god, your lack of understanding of how evolution works and how it produces what we see today isn't evidence it didn't happen. You need provide evidence of why god is needed, or prove god did it, just saying, "He could have." doesn't show anything.

If your wrong about evolutiuon and god micromanaging and being needed how would you know? Your just inserting him because you don't understand how it could happen, well sorry science does know, and has the means for it to happen, we've been studying this for decades, we have the fossils, we have the genetics, we have the ERV's, we have the homology and so on, everything independantly fits evolution, even without genetics we have strong evidence. The evidence of god not being required is on our side,show your methodology for determining he was needed.

Wrong, see your lack of knowledge in a subject isn't evidence against it. we've found amino acids in commets, we've done experiments that show that the type of handed amino acids we use in our DNA are favoured, we've done multiple experiments that show many of the steps for abiogensesis, we working on the rest, but what we have is more then enough to point towards evolution and it happening. go research the subject, science doesn't sit there and just say, well we have a guess thats all thats needed it continues to learn and gather more Data.

And god could have started Abiogenesis but the question isn't did he, the question is he needed, any more then is he needed for evolution. But lets say he started abiogenesis, we know he's not needed for evolution because we know and understand the process by wich it goes from goo to you and everything else on this planet. You can argue on abiogensis, though I say it's too early, saying we havn't provided evidence for it yet, isn't evidence against it s we have come a far way.

Dissmissivly ignoring evidence isn't a story. these are facts, if abiogensis happened this is HOW it happened, no story, just the facts, because this is how chemistry works, no assertion needed as abiogensis be no diferent from hydrogen and oxygen turning into water, just more complex, but just as the right conditions form water, the right conditions would form life.

You keep saying over and over no evidence like a Mantra, why is it that over 95% of scientists disagree with you and think there is evidence, many of them Christians.
 
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loveofourlord

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I'm interested in how you reconcile that with the creation story of the bible.



No. I accept common building blocks.

do you accept any form of evoolution? Micro, macro or the such? How do you think we got the diversity of life here over billions of years? Or do you think the earth is only 6000 years old.
 
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Oncedeceived

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More assertions and no evidence to provide to support it. The evidence shows that complexity was there right there in the beginning.

Because it comes down to where is god needed, we know he's not needed for planetary formation, galaxy formation, solar system formation and so on, because we have all the evidence of these things happening naturally, we can see them happening naturally, so why asert something we don't need? And I'm not making assertions here, we have the methods and know why these things could happen without god being the ultimate OCD micromanager. And my theology is to go where the evidence leads, I believe in god because I've had the interactions and seen things that lead me to believe in him, I believe in Jesus because it fits the evidence to me.

Ok, there are theories on how the planets form, there are theories about galaxy formation, there are theories of how the solar system was formed but these are theories and some of these theories most favored for planet formation are being questioned even now due to new discoveries. We have no real evidence for any of it. There is supportive evidence for some parts of the explanations but as a whole no we don't have evidence of these things happening naturally.

But when we see everthing after the big bang there is no need to insert god, your lack of understanding of how evolution works and how it produces what we see today isn't evidence it didn't happen. You need provide evidence of why god is needed, or prove god did it, just saying, "He could have." doesn't show anything.
First of all, you are very strong on assumptions. It is not a lack of understanding evolution that I hold the positions I hold. I am not even sure if you know what my position is and I know that you don't know what I know about the subject.

If your wrong about evolutiuon and god micromanaging and being needed how would you know? Your just inserting him because you don't understand how it could happen, well sorry science does know, and has the means for it to happen, we've been studying this for decades, we have the fossils, we have the genetics, we have the ERV's, we have the homology and so on, everything independantly fits evolution, even without genetics we have strong evidence. The evidence of god not being required is on our side,show your methodology for determining he was needed.
Science doesn't "know" and neither do the scientists that actually do the work of Science. WE have plenty of evidence for evolution as defined. What we don't have evidence for are the claims that are not based on evidence but on assertion.

Wrong, see your lack of knowledge in a subject isn't evidence against it. we've found amino acids in commets, we've done experiments that show that the type of handed amino acids we use in our DNA are favoured, we've done multiple experiments that show many of the steps for abiogensesis, we working on the rest, but what we have is more then enough to point towards evolution and it happening. go research the subject, science doesn't sit there and just say, well we have a guess thats all thats needed it continues to learn and gather more Data.
Once again you make assertions and assumptions. I have researched the subject extensively and have kept updated on new developments. You are using a blanket explanation for everything from Abiogenesis to complex molecular machines rather evidence for specific questions. Evolution is true is not evidence for abiogenesis. Evolution is true is not evidence for molecular machines in all living organisms.

And god could have started Abiogenesis but the question isn't did he, the question is he needed, any more then is he needed for evolution. But lets say he started abiogenesis, we know he's not needed for evolution because we know and understand the process by wich it goes from goo to you and everything else on this planet. You can argue on abiogensis, though I say it's too early, saying we havn't provided evidence for it yet, isn't evidence against it s we have come a far way.
No we don't know the processes that go from "goo" to me. You seem to think we know much more than we actually do.

Dissmissivly ignoring evidence isn't a story. these are facts, if abiogensis happened this is HOW it happened, no story, just the facts, because this is how chemistry works, no assertion needed as abiogensis be no diferent from hydrogen and oxygen turning into water, just more complex, but just as the right conditions form water, the right conditions would form life.
I am ignoring nothing. It is a story, a story that we have had now for nearly 200 years and we are no closer to providing evidence for it than when it was first supposed.

You keep saying over and over no evidence like a Mantra, why is it that over 95% of scientists disagree with you and think there is evidence, many of them Christians.
Well first of all I keep saying there is no evidence because there is no evidence, secondly claiming 95% of scientists disagree with me is using a logical fallacy, which isn't evidence for something anyway.
 
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Oncedeceived

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do you accept any form of evoolution? Micro, macro or the such? How do you think we got the diversity of life here over billions of years? Or do you think the earth is only 6000 years old.
I am impressed, rather than making assumptions you are actually asking what positions are held. Nice job!
 
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lesliedellow

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No, no, no. With just zeros and ones, you can say anything. The information is not in the zero, or in the one. The information is in the pattern of zeros and ones. When the pattern changes, new information is created.

In this day and age, that ought to be obvious to anybody who knows anything at all about computer technology. Not to Justa though.
 
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