Requesting HELP from Non-Calvinist

[Terrence Theodore]

I became reformed in my understanding by hearing a series called "the doctrines of Grace." However, I do not want to just believe these things just because they sound good. Therefore, I am requesting help from brothers and sisters who do not agree with Reformed Theology. Please help! How would you understand the following question:

How can the man natural man, who by the way is a slave to sin insomuch that all he does is sin (John 8:34, Rom 13:48), who cannot understand spiritual truth like the gospel (1 Cor 2:14), who cannot obey God's laws because he hates God (Romans 8:7), choose in an of his own will to come to God? Also, how can he do this amazing thing when it is written of the natural man..."there is none that seeks for God" (Rom 3:11)?

How does the Non-Calvinist understand these things, and answer these questions?

 

[Rightglory]

Terrence Theodore,

the questions you raise are all based on false dilemnas. They are also based on texts that are taken out of context to support presuppositions that are not in scripture.

First, it is based on the concept of "total depravity" and that the sin of Adam was imputed to all posterity. The idea that man cannot obey God's laws, or is actually in enmity against God because of what the Reformed proponets call man's sin nature.

Man is not totally depraved. There is nothing in scripture that declares man is totally depraved. He is a fallen creature, has become mortal through the corruption of death and sin. The fallacy of the Reformed position is that they do not separate nature from person. Man does not act through his nature. His nature is mortal, it is a state of being. If our nature were actually sin, then we cannot commit sin. Sin would be our state of being. We would be sin instead of doing sin. Our nature because it is fallen, influences man's desire, influences his rational thinking, so that his decision can be led to sin. We sin as persons. If we sinned as per nature, all of our sins would be the same, since our natures are the same and we sin of necessity.

Another theological problem is that if man is actually sin, or has a sin nature, then Christ could never be born of a human being as Christ was of the Virgin Mary. By virtue of becoming man, Christ's human nature would have been sin. Thus totally meaningless for man. The fact that the reformed view will also say that man does not have a free will, denies the very Incarnation of Christ of being both man and God. If man does not have a free will, then Christ could not have kept the law perfect through His human will. We know that Christ submitted His Human will to that of the Divine. That is why Christ can save mankind both from death and sin. Christ was in His Human nature a human being, as we are, in every respect, including being mortal, subject to death which is what we inherited from Adam, not sin. Christ could sin, but did not sin which is why man can be healed. It is why He is our supreme example of obedience.

Man also cannot be in enmity with God by nature. This again is a denial of the Incarnation of Christ. If this was so, then Christ could have ONLY been Divine and never human. It would not have been man that was perfect, but God in His Divine nature.

How does man sin? Man sins through his person. Man has a rational soul. He is influenced by many things which all bear upon his deliberations, his desires. The actual decision or act can then be towards the good, or towards the evil, depending on what that person wants or desires. Man is also not compelled to always choose his desires, he can choose other than his desires.

This is why man is held accountable for his actions. From deciding to believe, to be in faith, or not to be in faith or to leave at any time in his lifetime. Satan is influencing man as much as God. God imparts His grace to all men. The fact that man wills either for or against God is a measure of God's grace that man has a will.

Scripture does not say that man's nature is against God, but that the mind rules over the flesh for those that hate God. Satan did not lie to Adam when he said that if Adam ate of the forbidden tree, he would know both good and evil. Man does know both good or evil. It is the constant struggle of man with the assistance of God's grace to overcome the evil.

God calls all men to Himself. he desires that all come to know Him. Why not, since all are created in His Image. No man is excluded and man must make a rational, deliberate, choice of whether to believe or not to believe. Man can also curb his sinful habits and sin less.

The Mind of Christ, rather than the Mind of the flesh must rule man as a believer or else he will succumb to the devil. It is why man is held accountable for his sins. It is man that does them of his own free will.

Without that will all else is meaningless. God becomes the sole agent in this creative order, man is but a passive receptacle doing the bidding of God. Man could not be a responsible agent, nor could he be judged or held accountable for something he cannot do. God's revelation to man becomes null and void. Why must man know God? What good would that do man. Why would man need to know what God expects from him, how to live in accordance with His will.

Belief, faith is not spiritual knowledge. They are elements inherent in all men, created in the image of God. The fact that man has a soul, which distinquishes him from all other creatures, is divine link in man. God created in man the ability to know God. God has given every human being the ability, the capacity to do what God requires of him. It is man's decision whether he will follow God, or follow his own path.

Man may have fallen, became corrupt through death, but Christ restored mankind back to the Image of God. Gave life to all men, an eternal existance. And God offers union to all men, which was His original purpose and design for man before the fall.


Man does not act apart from God. All things come from God. Man does not come to God on his own, but comes in response to God's call to come. The soul of man is saved by a cooperative, synergistic relationship of being IN Christ. It is an internal, not an external relationship. It is personal and not a legal relationship. We are as righteous as we do rightousness, just as we are sinners as we do sin. The goal is to do righteousness with the assistance of the Holy Spirit to persevere to the end and attain the crown of life that awaits those who are faithful.

 

[JDS]

I became reformed in my understanding by hearing a series called "the doctrines of Grace." However, I do not want to just believe these things just because they sound good. Therefore, I am requesting help from brothers and sisters who do not agree with Reformed Theology. Please help! How would you understand the following question:

1) How can the man natural man, who by the way is a slave to sin insomuch that all he does is sin (John 8:34, Rom 13:48),
2) who cannot understand spiritual truth like the gospel (1 Cor 2:14),
3)who cannot obey God's laws because he hates God (Romans 8:7), choose in an of his own will to come to God?
4) Also, how can he do this amazing thing when it is written of the natural man..."there is none that seeks for God" (Rom 3:11)?

First of all, in question one, you have presumed that all the natural man does is sin. You have forced your presuppositions on the texts.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

This does not say what you have implied. That is that all the natural man does is sin. It says, "he that committeth sin is the servant of sin. Sin is an action verb in the text. You have added "all he does is sin".

There is no Romans 13:48.
Question 2

The gospel is not mentioned in 1 Cor 2 and is not the subject of Paul's comments as they relate to what the natural man cannot know.

He is speaking about the wisdom of God contained in a mystery. It is contrasted with the wisdom of men.
Read this context:

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The wisdom of the world can not ever through their own wisdom bring to light the hidden widsdom which God ordained before the creation of the world. This is the church, BTW. The mystery must be taught by the Holy Ghost. Men cannot teach it to you if you have not the Spirit. Read here.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The point is here that one must have the Spirit to receive the understanding of the mysteries of this age. The natural man does not have the Spirit and therefore can never understand these truths that are most surely believed among us.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul did not reveal the mystery to these Corinthians when he wrote this letter in AD 54, but he did reveal the mystery of the church in Ephesians in AD 60. The Corinthians were not able to bear it because of their carnality and immaturity.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Question 3:

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

He is speaking of the carnal mind here. If the Spirit gives the thoughts of God, then it stands to reason that a carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God, and cannot be, because he does not have the Spirit. One must look carefully at any text lest he err in even grasping the obvious things it says, much less the spiritual.

Question 4.

It says in that passage in Romans 3 that no one seeks God but there are more passages that instructs men to seek him , and men seek him than passages that say none seek him. God even says he divided the nations and set their boundaries so that men might seek him. Consider this:

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And this:

Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If there are passages that seem to contradict one another, then one must search diligently and resolve the seeming conflict with study, prayer, and right division and the magnificent word of God, which has no contradictions.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Rightglory

the questions you raise are all based on false dilemnas. They are also based on texts that are taken out of context to support presuppositions that are not in scripture.

Thanks for your response! Will you tell me what scripture I have taken out of context? I think I quoted 4...which one is taken out of context?

First, it is based on the concept of "total depravity" and that the sin of Adam was imputed to all posterity. The idea that man cannot obey God's laws, or is actually in enmity against God because of what the Reformed proponets call man's sin nature.

How do you understand Romans 8:7..." For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot?"

If our nature were actually sin, then we cannot commit sin. Sin would be our state of being. We would be sin instead of doing sin.

Brother, everyone born is born in and under the curse of sin. Therefore it is written..."That which is born of flesh is surely flesh" (Jn 3:6), and "the flesh profits nothing" (Jn 6:63). People are born bad. They are born faithless and God hating. Therefore it is written of all without faith..."Your righteousness is as filthy rags" (Isa 64:6), and "whatever is not from faith IS sin" (Rom 14:23). So you see, it is not as though men are sinners, but nonetheless do some good. Rather, all those who are not united to God via faith in Jesus does nothing but sin continually (especially in God's eyes)!

The fact that the reformed view will also say that man does not have a free will, denies the very Incarnation of Christ of being both man and God.

Reformed theology does not deny man's freewill, but rather explains what it means. Man's will in free in this sense: he freely chooses that which is consistent to his nature. What is the nature of man? Man's nature is sinful to its very core (For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander - Matt 15:19). A sinful man will no more choose a Holy God than a pig choose fine foods over a bucket of slop. Hence it is written..."no man seeks for God" (Rom 3:11).

How does man sin?

Man sins when he is eating or sleeping, or when he is living a good and moral life helping his fellow man, if in fact he does not have faith in Jesus (Isa 64L6m Rom 14:23).

Man is also not compelled to always choose his desires, he can choose other than his desires.

I think you're looking at things from a man-centered view. Look at it from God's side for a moment. I'm not saying that man can't do good things for man, and have it be recognize as "good" in man's eyes. Yet, man does not wake us up in the morning, or give us the very breath we breathe as we speak via this message board. It is God that does that. And, he has commanded, "what so ever we do - whether we eat or drink, or whether we do good deeds - do it ALL to the glory of God" (1Co 10:31, Mat 5:16). If we fail to do that which he made us for, namely his glory, we fall short and therefore sin.

Scripture does not say that man's nature is against God, but that the mind rules over the flesh for those that hate God.

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed." (John 3:19-20).

Brother, before Christ saved us, we ALL did wicked things! Look at the scripture..."all those who do wicked HATES the light [Jesus]!" Our coming into the light has all been by Grace. "But because of 'HIS' great loved with which he loved us, even when we were 'DEAD' in our sins, 'HE' (GOD) made us 'ALIVE' with Christ...by Grace we have been saved" (Eph 2:9).

You had a lot of cool things to say, but I choose to only answer the ones that dealt with the original post...I didn't want to add more without first getting an answer for the first thread, you know? Thanks again for the talk!

 

[Philothei]

Have you read St. Ireneus on the issue of predestination?So if you do I would not need to re-post it here.. .Also I would help if you put an order in the thoughts you expressed earlier so we take things slow...

 

[Philothei]

Brother, before Christ saved us, we ALL did wicked things! Look at the scripture..."all those who do wicked HATES the light [Jesus]!" Our coming into the light has all been by Grace. "But because of 'HIS' great loved with which he loved us, even when we were 'DEAD' in our sins, 'HE' (GOD) made us 'ALIVE' with Christ...by Grace we have been saved" (Eph 2:9).

I am sorry but I kind of not understanding what you say here... ARe we not sinful after we are "saved" and if we are saved we cease to "sin" anymore? I am confussed here. I undertand the Grace thing and I think Right Glory did covered that part...

I would like also to know where is the starting point of your confussion here

 

[Philothei]

Another question I have since you are saying you are doubting Calvinism... How could a Calvinist reconsile the fact that Calvinism is not so widely spread.. I mean does this mean that ONLY those who are Calvinists are somehow saved? Or you can be 'elect" and still belong to another denomination or church? Since you have been inquiring for Calvinism and it has you concienced maybe you know...(if this is too Off topic you do not have to answer)

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Philothe
ARe we not sinful after we are "saved" and if we are saved we cease to "sin" anymore?

I hope I can make sense here. lol. Um...I'd have to say its an "both and" type answer, and not an "either or." You see, at the moment of belief we are saved in God's eyes (he's outside of time and he knows his own.) Therefore, from God's point of view "those whom he justified he also glorified" (Rom 8:30). From our point of view though - as we still exist in time - we are still sinful. We go through a process called sanctification - which takes us "from glory to glory" conforming us more and more into the image of our elder brother and Savior, Jesus. So yeah, we're still sinful (from time's point of view), and already glorified (from God's point of view). Trippy, huh?

I would like also to know where is the starting point of your confussion here

What do you mean?

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Philothei

Another question I have since you are saying you are doubting Calvinism... How could a Calvinist reconsile the fact that Calvinism is not so widely spread..

Good question. I don't know honestly. In a time past, it was the popular theology of the day (actually for most of Christian history). But I'm not sure why it is not so popular anymore...I have a few speculations though. But conjecture shouldn't be taken seriously, so I'll refrain.

I mean does this mean that ONLY those who are Calvinists are somehow saved?

Nah! God saves people who genuinely believe in Jesus, not the cerebrally minded folks with high theology. The study of theology should be a means to the great end of knowing God, and not an end of itself. So again, all those who believe will be saved, whether the understand the inner workings of their salvation or not.

Or you can be 'elect" and still belong to another denomination or church?

Yeah. I used to be of the denomination of "Nondenominational." I was quite proud of that.

 

[Philothei]

Were does Mark 8:34 stands then?

Mark 8:34 (New International Reader's Version)


34 Jesus called the crowd to him along with his disciples. He said, "If anyone wants to come after me, he must say no to himself. He must pick up his cross and follow me.

Christ says that will (θελησις--) has to do with following Him...so why would we reject his command for us to chose?

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Were does Mark 8:34 stands then?

Mark 8:34 (New International Reader's Version)


34 Jesus called the crowd to him along with his disciples. He said, "If anyone wants to come after me, he must say no to himself. He must pick up his cross and follow me.

Christ says that will (θελησις--) has to do with following Him...so why would we reject his command for us to chose?

It stands with all the other commands from scripture - e.g., "all those who are tired, come and I will give you rest, etc." The Bible teaches BOTH God's sovereignty and Man's Responsibility.

EVERY MAN is responsible for the real and true choice given to come to Jesus. This is why we are told to preach the gospel to ALL people. The sad truth however is this: none comes to Jesus. Jesus himself cried over a city once..."Oh Jerusalem, how I wanted to gather you, BUT YOU WOULDNT COME!" They saw his miracles and EVERYTHING - and they still choose not to come. How much harder is it for the sinner who have not seen his glorious wonders to come?

I'll be honest. The ONLY people to come to Jesus are those whom the Father draws (Jn 6:44). If God didn't interview and seek and save some lost people, NONE would come to Him. And then how might his love and mercy and wondrous glories be revealed?

 

[chrisnu]

I'm going to assume this warning is a kind of divine joke.

"For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy ‘on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who said, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:26-31

The elect never have to worry about this, God won't allow this to happen in their lives. They can just lord this passage over those other guys. Meanwhile, the writer of Hebrews is laughing in the faces of the reprobate, because God won't allow them to do anything but what's described in this warning.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

I'm going to assume this warning is a kind of divine joke.

"For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy ‘on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who said, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:26-31

The elect never have to worry about this, God won't allow this to happen in their lives. They can just lord this passage over those other guys. Meanwhile, the writer of Hebrews is laughing in the faces of the reprobate, because God won't allow them to do anything but what's described in this warning.

All warnings of God are true. All true Christians WILL take the warnings seriously. One of the means by which God keeps his people in holiness, is fear..."And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me" (Jer 32:40). That scripture deals with "eternal" covenant that all Christians are apart of. And again, ALL Christians, will fear God. It is the NON Christians who "do not fear God" (Rom 3:11), and whom will ignore all the warnings given by God.

I should add this: When Christians sin (we can get in a state of carnality, though we can't continually live there and still assume to be saved), it is sometimes the fear of God that brings us back. Again, it is just one of the many means to keep us on track; just like God's mercy and love and so on.

 

[Philothei]

none comes to Jesus. Jesus himself cried over a city once..."Oh Jerusalem, how I wanted to gather you, BUT YOU WOULDNT COME!" They saw his miracles and EVERYTHING - and they still choose not to come. How much harder is it for the sinner who have not seen his glorious wonders to come?

So they are not asked and they do not come? But they do ...You are not answering to me here but instead introduce another verse...The above shows "stubborness" and "a hardened heart" nothing more. It does not prove to me that NONE has come to the calll. Rather some do come and some do not. If it was ONLY for drawing and that was it... All should have come right? Why would God want willingly to "exclude" some ??? The problem is that without men's will involved God is "chosing" and he is kind of an eliticist is He not???

He calls them and since they are predestined they do not repsond so the responsibility of damnation is on Him and Him alone.
God intents no evil to anyone... as He knows no evil.
Still the above verse says it clear "whoever wants come... " It is obvious!!

 

[chrisnu]

All warnings of God are true. All true Christians WILL take the warnings seriously. One of the means by which God keeps his people in holiness, is fear..."And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me" (Jer 32:40). That scripture deals with "eternal" covenant that all Christians are apart of. And again, ALL Christians, will fear God. It is the NON Christians who "do not fear God" (Rom 3:11), and whom will ignore all the warnings given by God.

I should add this: When Christians sin (we can get in a state of carnality, though we can't continually live there and still assume to be saved), it is sometimes the fear of God that brings us back. Again, it is just one of the many means to keep us on track; just like God's mercy and love and so on.

All Christians will take the warnings seriously, because God won't let them do otherwise, correct? Thus, it's not really a warning, because warnings have possible consequences.

If we get into a "state of carnality" and stay there, the Calvinist would say that you never had a relationship with Christ in the first place. Regardless of any apparent work of the Spirit in your life previously, it was all a sham. I believe that's disingenuous.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Philothei

So they are not asked and they do not come? But they do ...You are not answering to me here but instead introduce another verse...

The people in the above example (Oh Jerusalem, Oh Jerusalem) were asked to come. Yet not everyone is given signs that they may believe. Sometimes - and I realize this may sound harsh - God reserves the right to harden a sinner if he so chooses. Consider, for example, Matt 11:21-23. Jesus said that if certain cities were given signs by God, they "would have repented." But no signs were given, and therefore they did not repent, but perished in their sins. "Many" and NOT "all," are called, but a few is chosen.

The above shows "stubborness" and "a hardened heart" nothing more. It does not prove to me that NONE has come to the calll.

That's the thing. In our unconverted state, all are stubborn and have hard hearts. "That which is born of flesh is flesh" (Jn 3:6), "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all" (Jn 6:3). For us to even want to come to God, God must give us a new heart (Eze 36:25-27).

Rather some do come and some do not.

Yes, some do come. It is by the mercy of God that those blessed ones come. The mercy or grace that enables a sinner to come isnt merited by the sinner himself (there is nothing worthy or lovely in a sinner that enthralls a Holy God). Rather, it is simply the free choice of God to "have mercy on whom he wills, and harden whom he wills."

If it was ONLY for drawing and that was it... All should have come right?

All aren't drawn, but many (an innumerable number). Many wonder why God chooses to save some instead of all. I think a more interesting and ear-scratching question is this: knowing the extreme holiness of God; especially when juxtaposed with the exceeding sinfulness of man, why does God choose to save anyone at all?

Why would God want willingly to "exclude" some ??? The problem is that without men's will involved God is "chosing" and he is kind of an eliticist is He not???

This is tough to talk about with Christians because...um...its just tough, lol. It is difficult for me to explain that God is God centered, and not man-centered, especially if you haven't heard it before. God does everything - from creation to salvation and redemption - the whole gambit, primarily for himself (that he may be glorified). He created man for his glory (Isa 43:6-7), he chose Israel out of all the peoples of the earth for his glory (2 Sam 7:23), He forgives his people for his glory (Isa 48:9,Eph 4:32, 1John 2:12), he commands us to do all things for his glory (1 Corinthians 10:31). When God does this, he is not being self centered in a bad way like if I were to do all things for me. You see, God is infinitely wise and infinitely good and infinitely lovely and infinitely glorious and awe-inspiring - we aren't.

Therefore, when God does all this for himself, he is doing the most loving thing ever. He is giving the people whom he made for his glory, to be infinitely satisfied with what is best - namely himself. In this way, God gets all the glory, and we get all the benefit and joy. This is the best of both worlds. Now I said all that to say this: God is no respecter of men, and he doesn't choose on the basis of man. In fact "not many wise and noble and strong are called. Rather, God chooses the weak and debased things of the world that no one may glory in themselves, but God" (1 Cor 1:26-31).

There's a popular Pastor today that tells the following story often. He explains how Pastors from different churches often ask him to come to their church to teach on the Attributes of God. When asked to come, he says, "no brother, I wont do it." When asked why, he says "well, if I teach on the attributes of God, I will speak on God's love and holiness, and especially his sovereignty, and what happens many times is this: some of the oldest and nicest people - even those who have been going to church all their lives, often come up to me at the end of the service and say 'I could never worship a god like that' and 'my God is nothing like that!'" I tell you that because I too find that many people's view on God (even real Christians), sometimes look more like a nice old man, or even Santa Clause, than it does the Great I AM of the Bible.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

chrisnu

All Christians will take the warnings seriously, because God won't let them do otherwise, correct?

Yes. This is because our being saved didn't originate with us, therefore it is said..."he who began a good work in you will complete it"( Phi 1:6), "and this is God's will, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day" (Jn 6:39). God will surely do this, even if he has to discipline his children at times. We can be sure of this: if we are NOT receiving discipline from God, we are not his children (Heb 12:7).

Thus, it's not really a warning, because warnings have possible consequences.

It is a warning because it accomplishes its intent. God intends his warnings to "scare" as it were, his sometimes way-ward children back into what they know they are to be doing, namely the pursuit of holiness. "I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me" (Jer 32:40).

If we get into a "state of carnality" and stay there, the Calvinist would say that you never had a relationship with Christ in the first place.

The Bible says that. "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God" (1 Jn 3:9).

Regardless of any apparent work of the Spirit in your life previously, it was all a sham. I believe that's disingenuous.

We MUST, by all cost and with much diligence, aim to trust in God (via his word alone), and NOT lean on our own understanding. A lot of what's written in scripture goes directly against what man would say is fair and good, but God is infinitely wise, and his ways are much higher than ours. He's right, he knows best. Like Job said..."though he slay me, yet will I trust him." That's the spirit we are to have (not saying you dont have that, by the way).

 

[chrisnu]

Those passages are being misused (particularly the verse from 1 John - it's a call to holiness, not a promise). Let's go back in the passage a little bit.

"No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him." 1 John 3:6

Using your method of interpretation, if someone sins a single time, they were never a believer in the first place.

 

[Rightglory]

Terrence Theodore,

Thanks for your response! Will you tell me what scripture I have taken out of context? I think I quoted 4...which one is taken out of context?

All four which is explained in my answer to you in that same post.

How do you understand Romans 8:7..." For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot?"

It clearly denies that man's nature is set against God. It is the MIND of the flesh. In other words man deliberative decision to be against God. God did not create man at enmity against God. Man chooses to be so.

Brother, everyone born is born in and under the curse of sin. Therefore it is written..."That which is born of flesh is surely flesh" (Jn 3:6), and "the flesh profits nothing" (Jn 6:63). People are born bad. They are born faithless and God hating. Therefore it is written of all without faith..."Your righteousness is as filthy rags" (Isa 64:6), and "whatever is not from faith IS sin" (Rom 14:23). So you see, it is not as though men are sinners, but nonetheless do some good. Rather, all those who are not united to God via faith in Jesus does nothing but sin continually (especially in God's eyes)!

Yes, it says curse of sin, not sin. The curse of sin is DEATH. Man became mortal, man was sentenced to dust, death. Gen 3:19. That is the specific curse that Christ lifted from every man. He overcame that sentence of death by His resurrection. He raised our mortal beings to immortality through His Incarnation.

People are not born bad. They, (we) are not even born sinners. We are born mortal. It is the mortal state of death which we inherited from Adam. We are sinners because we sin, we are not sin.

Faith is an element of of our natures, of our being created in God Image. All men are created with a link to God. All men seek after God. Man in his fallenness has a propensity to turn inward and direct that seeking to other things. Thus man who choose to live out of faith, is constantly sinning against God. He was not created that way, nor does our fallenness make man of necessity a sinner. God calls all men to Himself. The Holy Spirit works in this world upon every human being directing Him to God. John 12:32. Acts 2:17.

Reformed theology does not deny man's freewill, but rather explains what it means. Man's will in free in this sense: he freely chooses that which is consistent to his nature. What is the nature of man? Man's nature is sinful to its very core (For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander - Matt 15:19). A sinful man will no more choose a Holy God than a pig choose fine foods over a bucket of slop. Hence it is written..."no man seeks for God" (Rom 3:11).

which is why It denies the Incarnation of Christ. If man does and exists only as his nature and if his nature is sin, or is in opposition to God, then Christ could not have become man. It would make Christ a sinner as well. Christ assumed our human natues. our fallen mortal natures so that He could raise them from death to life.

We are all sinners. EVen as believers we are sinners. In your words then man cannot do good even as a believer. The heart is not man's nature by the way. Our nature is a cause of our being sinful, but the mortal nature itself is not sinful nor sin. It is an impossibility. As I stated, we could not commit sin, we would be sin. A huge difference.

Man sins when he is eating or sleeping, or when he is living a good and moral life helping his fellow man, if in fact he does not have faith in Jesus (Isa 64L6m Rom 14:23).

But faith does not change our nature. ONLY Christ can change our nature and He did that for all men through His Incarnation and resurrection, rasing our mortal natures to immortal ones. Your own statment here contradicts what you stated above regarding mans nature. Faith does not stop man from sinning.

I think you're looking at things from a man-centered view. Look at it from God's side for a moment. I'm not saying that man can't do good things for man, and have it be recognize as "good" in man's eyes. Yet, man does not wake us up in the morning, or give us the very breath we breathe as we speak via this message board. It is God that does that. And, he has commanded, "what so ever we do - whether we eat or drink, or whether we do good deeds - do it ALL to the glory of God" (1Co 10:31, Mat 5:16). If we fail to do that which he made us for, namely his glory, we fall short and therefore sin.

Which again denies your previous statement regarding nature. Faith is not going to change your nature. Your latter part of the statment is exactly correct. It is man that determines whether he will live, drink, and do to God's glory, not God. When we fall short it is not our nature, but we as persons who have sinned. It is why we will be held accountable to God.

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed." (John 3:19-20).

Again, nothing about natures, but persons who loved darkness, Not darkness of necessity through their nature. We do works, we are not works. You have created false dilimnas in not understanding the difference between nature and personhood.

Brother, before Christ saved us, we ALL did wicked things! Look at the scripture..."all those who do wicked HATES the light [Jesus]!" Our coming into the light has all been by Grace. "But because of 'HIS' great loved with which he loved us, even when we were 'DEAD' in our sins, 'HE' (GOD) made us 'ALIVE' with Christ...by Grace we have been saved" (Eph 2:9).

We still do wicked things even as believers. Christ is the Light of the world. It cometh unto all men. But men choose of their own free will to reject that light in favor of doing their own wills and against God.

Christ loved all men who are sinners. NO one is excluded here. We were all dead in sins and treaspasses due to the curse of sin of Adam, namely death. Christ freed mankind from this curse, overcame death, so that man and God together might fulfill the purpose of why God created man in the first place.

 

[Terrence Theodore]

Those passages are being misused (particularly the verse from 1 John - it's a call to holiness, not a promise). Let's go back in the passage a little bit.

"No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him." 1 John 3:6

Using your method of interpretation, if someone sins a single time, they were never a believer in the first place.

The intent of the whole book of 1 John can be summed up in chapt 5 and verse 13..."I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." John gives clear indications of what a Christian looks like and what a Christian does not look like, viz - if you love your brother you are saved, if you don't you're not, etc, etc. Chapter 3 and verse 9 states that "no one born of God CANNOT keep on sinning." John is NOT talking about perfectionism, as we can see he also says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 Jon 1:8). What John is taking about in chapt 3 and verse 9 is a lifestyle of sin, or "habitual" sin. No child of God lives in habitual sin, indeed they cannot!!

Does this make sense, or do you still believe me to be misusing the scriptures?