Religion vs. Love

[Saucy]

I have been toying with the idea of writing a Christian book titled "Religion vs. Love." The idea of it is basically that religion leads people to to judge one another based upon what they feel is right or wrong, where as Jesus taught us to love and not judge one another.

Also, religion forces us to get into God's good graces by works and following the 'law' so to speak, where as God wants our hearts to be in the right places. Works aren't bad when the heart is in the right spot, but people follow religion and do good works because it's expected or maybe it gives them recognition in their town or what not. Politicians use their faith all the time to get votes.

Jesus said that not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of heaven and they will say to Jesus, "Did I not do all these great works in your name!" and Jesus will say, "Get away from me, I never knew you." There are other verses that support this. Read the first chapter of Isaiah and you'll see God got very angry at Israel because of their feasts, Sabbaths, incense, sacrifices and He asks, "who required you to do this?" as if it was part of their religion and not in their heart to please God.

I'm creating this thread not to start a debate, but to just see what you think about this. If you have any other bible verses that pertain to this idea, I may use them in the book.

So, what do you think?

 

[Marycita]

Sounds like a better title for the book would be Bad Religion vs. Good Religion

 

[Saucy]

Great idea! I definitely don't want to portray the right kind of religious living as something that's bad.

 

[Touma]

James 1:27?

 

[Blackguard_]

Love is the Law.

E.g. Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:9-10, Matthew 22:37-40

 

[Saucy]

James 1:27?

Great verse! Thanks!

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

To be very honest, it sounds like the common 'religion is bad' message that has been going around lately. Such messages are an oversimplification of the complex problems of faith. They try to call all the bad things about religion 'religion', while suggesting that all the good elements are not part of religion. Religion, faith or whatever you want to call it has good things and like anything, can have bad things. To give religion a negative connotation does not really get at the heart of these problems, it just obscures them.

Religion offers people a foundation for belief and community. Religion is a history of witnesses of events, meanings shaped by communities, and worship that offers reverence to God that also unites people together.

To say that God was not happy with incense, sacrifices, temple worship, et al because He did not like them, or that it kept them from God is not at all accurate. God was unhappy because people did these things, which do please Him and are good, but they then went and oppressed people, worshiped false idols and did all kinds of evil things. These things should help people, but instead they were used by people as a way of feeling good when they were doing evil.

 

[Stravinsk]

I have been toying with the idea of writing a Christian book titled "Religion vs. Love." The idea of it is basically that religion leads people to to judge one another based upon what they feel is right or wrong, where as Jesus taught us to love and not judge one another.

What religion specifically? Or what aspect of what religion?

In this matter I've come to a conclusion over the past number of months:

I do not see any problem in the judgement of true or false, right or wrong, good or evil. This is something that is expected of us.

The ultimate judgement of an individual's life - however - and whether or not he or she is saved - is NOT up to me. It is just not my call nor my place. If I know that there is something that is right and I must do - or wrong and I must not do.

For my own life - I do not even make that judgement. Am I "saved"? That's up to God to determine. That might seem a scary thought for those who look for something to give them comfort. The better question is - "am I doing today what I should be?" - "am I loving my neighbor as myself today?", "do I have a sin I need to repent of today?" - "have I not forgiven my neighbor or acted unmercifully today?"

Those are some of the questions I believe I need to ask. They help to stave off spiritual complacency - and not rely on my "status", per my own judgement - of "where I'm at" with regards to eternal salvation.

Also, religion forces us to get into God's good graces by works and following the 'law' so to speak, where as God wants our hearts to be in the right places. Works aren't bad when the heart is in the right spot, but people follow religion and do good works because it's expected or maybe it gives them recognition in their town or what not. Politicians use their faith all the time to get votes.

That is why we are told to do a number of things, and not others, such as:

- Pray in private
- Do good works without boasting about them or broadcasting them.
- Not let the right hand know what the left hand does - in other words - do a good work - then forget about it.

Jesus said that not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of heaven and they will say to Jesus, "Did I not do all these great works in your name!" and Jesus will say, "Get away from me, I never knew you." There are other verses that support this. Read the first chapter of Isaiah and you'll see God got very angry at Israel because of their feasts, Sabbaths, incense, sacrifices and He asks, "who required you to do this?" as if it was part of their religion and not in their heart to please God.

God calls them "my feasts". (Leviticus 23:1-2)

But when He speaks to Israel He calls them "your new moons and feasts" (Isaiah 1:14)

By this we can deduce that they were keeping the feasts falsely, without an upright heart or mixing in wrong practices with them - or they were keeping feasts with those names that were not actually the true feasts.

Evidence for this is found in the Septuagint:

Amos 6:2-4 Septuagint:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 O house of Israel, pass by all [of you], and see; and pass by thence to Ematrabba; and thence descend to Gath{gr.Geth} of the Philistines, the chief of all these kingdoms, [see] if their coasts are greater than your coasts.

3 Ye who are approaching the evil day, who are drawing near and adopting false sabbaths;

4 who sleep upon beds of ivory, and live delicately on their couches, and eat kids out of the flocks, and sucking calves out of the midst of the stalls
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you compare this to the Masoretic - you will see the difference in the text. The Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed that the Jews have changed key parts of the Hebrew Bible - as the Septuagint Greek matches the ancient Hebrew found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[Blackguard_]

For my own life - I do not even make that judgement. Am I "saved"? That's up to God to determine. That might seem a scary thought for those who look for something to give them comfort. The better question is - "am I doing today what I should be?" - "am I loving my neighbor as myself today?", "do I have a sin I need to repent of today?" - "have I not forgiven my neighbor or acted unmercifully today?"

The Good News isn't "try your hardest to follow the Law of Moses and maybe Allah will choose to have mercy on you".

Now I've seen everything, "Christianity" without a Gospel.

Those are some of the questions I believe I need to ask. They help to stave off spiritual complacency - and not rely on my "status", per my own judgement - of "where I'm at" with regards to eternal salvation.

Then what do you rely on for eternal salvation, your own good deeds? Nothing? I'm sure you can see relying on good deeds just results in pride thinking you've done enough good works or despair in thinking you haven't done enough, so is it just random as far as human knowledge goes? I mean, the Calvinists beleive similar I believe but rely on good works and spiritual fruit to mark the Elect.

 

[r035198x]

Good luck with the book and hope you enjoy writing it.

 

[Stravinsk]

The Good News isn't "try your hardest to follow the Law of Moses and maybe Allah will choose to have mercy on you".

Now I've seen everything, "Christianity" without a Gospel.



Then what do you rely on for eternal salvation, your own good deeds? Nothing? I'm sure you can see relying on good deeds just results in pride thinking you've done enough good works or despair in thinking you haven't done enough, so is it just random as far as human knowledge goes? I mean, the Calvinists beleive similar I believe but rely on good works and spiritual fruit to mark the Elect.

I don't rely on *my* judgement as to whether I am "eternally saved". This is a point the OP brought up - and rightly - many will say to Him on that day (speaking of Messiah) - "didn't we cast out demons and do many miraculous things?"

This time - when He says this - He refers to the the Judgement, does He not?

So then - that day of Judgement is not here yet, at least not for those of us who are still living.

Therefore - the Resurrection of Messiah didn't "change" what He said.

And here's the crux - and I'm afraid most aren't going to like it:

This passage:

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Directly conflicts with Messiah's own words that those who acknowledge Him - even those who do miraculous works in HIS name - showing that they know it and believe - AREN'T necessarily saved.

The basis on which Messiah rejects them?

They are LAWLESS.

There's no getting around the conflict of texts. Man has a choice on whom to believe. Paul or Messiah.

 

[Humble Pie]

Also, religion forces us to get into God's good graces by works and following the 'law' so to speak, where as God wants our hearts to be in the right places. Works aren't bad when the heart is in the right spot, but people follow religion and do good works because it's expected or maybe it gives them recognition in their town or what not. Politicians use their faith all the time to get votes.

...I'm creating this thread not to start a debate, but to just see what you think about this. If you have any other bible verses that pertain to this idea, I may use them in the book.

So, what do you think?

We're not here as actors in a tv show. We can say and do anything on the script but if our hearts aren't in it we'll drop the ball.

 

[Stravinsk]

Then what do you rely on for eternal salvation, your own good deeds? Nothing? I'm sure you can see relying on good deeds just results in pride thinking you've done enough good works or despair in thinking you haven't done enough, so is it just random as far as human knowledge goes? I mean, the Calvinists beleive similar I believe but rely on good works and spiritual fruit to mark the Elect.

If you want to know what gives me comfort, this is among the things:

"Forgive, and you will be forgiven"

"Blessed are the Merciful, for they will be shown Mercy"

"Blessed are the Meek - for they will inherit the earth"

My Messiah expects me to forgive my brother "70 times 7" times.

If I *do not* and hold resentment in my heart - even though I believe He is Lord and was raised from the dead...

What position am I in?

If I ask a priest or pastor for forgiveness - or rely on them proclaiming it -

What position am I in? Have I not just proclaimed them my Father - denying God?

This is what the institutionalized church has relied on for centuries - proclamations of forgiveness that do not fit God's requirements. Not only can they not forgive sins - they eliminate the basis for which forgiveness is given - namely - those things above and especially - repentance.

 

[Miles]

The title may need a little work, but I think the subject matter has potential.

 

[Sketcher]

Biblically speaking, religion and love are not at odds:

"If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1:26-27

"But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God." - 1 Timothy 5:4

This is just scratching the surface. Right religion has love.

 

[Saucy]

I know people will think I'm being judgmental here, but when I see a lot of Christianity today, I see the Pharisees and how brutal they were with keeping in the law. And I believe even Jesus said in Matthew 23:13: "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

I have a blog written here on CF called "The Girl Who Wears Pants" and it's about a friend of a friend who had written about her first experience wearing pants because she was always taught in her church that women can't wear anything but dresses. And how when our church had a biker rally to preach the gospel, a group of bikers accidentally went to the wrong church and were kicked out because they weren't wearing a suit and tie. Or even the teenage girl who was asked not to come back to church unless she wears less "dark" clothing as she was a goth. That girl cried to me as she asked me why Jesus hates her so much because of how she dresses.

This is the state of Christianity today. Members are fighting over pews vs. chairs, they have a strict dress code and exclude members. My own mother once was turned away by a church because she didn't tithe.

The Christian church today goes about all these religious rituals and feasts, thinking they make us holy or bring us closer to God, but we turn people away. We aren't acting like ambassadors to Christ. We act like the Pharisees. And that's the idea behind Religion vs. Love. Because how we treat the least of these, is how we treat Jesus Himself. We totally forget the purpose of our faith and what the gospel preaches...that love is the greatest commandment.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I know people will think I'm being judgmental here, but when I see a lot of Christianity today, I see the Pharisees and how brutal they were with keeping in the law. And I believe even Jesus said in Matthew 23:13: "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

I have a blog written here on CF called "The Girl Who Wears Pants" and it's about a friend of a friend who had written about her first experience wearing pants because she was always taught in her church that women can't wear anything but dresses. And how when our church had a biker rally to preach the gospel, a group of bikers accidentally went to the wrong church and were kicked out because they weren't wearing a suit and tie. Or even the teenage girl who was asked not to come back to church unless she wears less "dark" clothing as she was a goth. That girl cried to me as she asked me why Jesus hates her so much because of how she dresses.

This is the state of Christianity today. Members are fighting over pews vs. chairs, they have a strict dress code and exclude members. My own mother once was turned away by a church because she didn't tithe.

The Christian church today goes about all these religious rituals and feasts, thinking they make us holy or bring us closer to God, but we turn people away. We aren't acting like ambassadors to Christ. We act like the Pharisees. And that's the idea behind Religion vs. Love. Because how we treat the least of these, is how we treat Jesus Himself. We totally forget the purpose of our faith and what the gospel preaches...that love is the greatest commandment.

You are trying to blame 'religious rituals and feasts' for people's behavior. I realize that some people have certain preferences when it comes to worship, but to attack liturgical aspects and associate them with jerks in Church is an unfair and unreasonable judgment.

What you have ended up doing is having the same judgmental attitude as the very same people you are denouncing: "If you do this, you aren't being a real/good Christian."

I would always be cautious against finger pointing.

 

[Saucy]

No, I'm not blaming the feasts and rituals. You can have them if you want. I'm definitely not saying that if you follow and do those things that you're a bad person or a jerk. You're misunderstanding my point.

I'm saying that in God's eyes, all those feasts and rituals don't mean a thing without love. Without works, faith is dead. Works can be a good thing if done correctly. If we do works for the purpose of looking good in our community or for power, but our heart isn't in the right place, then Jesus will tell us to get away from Him.

So this isn't finger pointing. It's an encouragement to remember that love is where it's at.

 

[K9_Trainer]

Saucy I agree with you and that sort of strict legalism and ritualism without any consideration or tolerance of deviants, if not downright bashing deviants is one of the big things that pushed me away from Christianity.

There's obviously a lot more behind my story, and I'm willing to share if you are curious or if it would help you with your writing. But it essentially boils down to that. People have different opinions, and many think that their form of worship is the RIGHT kind. And that's ok. But when it starts to discourage others who have a different form of worship, I think it crosses a line and the tongue is best to be bitten.

 

[Saucy]

Thanks K9! There are just soooo many examples and horrific, sad stories of the church just hurting people so badly and that looks badly on Christ. You can be the most religious person on the planet, but if you don't love, you have nothing.