Questioning the basis for the debate.

[rdclmn72]

If we were to look at the debate and its origin we would have to admit the following:

The debate is that of the placement of the church in Revelations and when the rapture ocurrs.

The basis is almost exclusively based on these assumptions;
1. That MT 24-25 refers to the gentile church.
2. That Paul refers to seven trumpets.
3. That Revelations refers to the gentile church.

The words in Matthew are directed toward those that are present, the church is not even founded yet.
The inmediate fulfillment happens within one generation.
The tongues of flame and the sound of a rushing wind are present in the old testament and represent judgement.
The fact that only the hebrews and not the gentiles were to be effected is another reason for the referral to a hebrew church as the group to be addressed.
The events within MT 24-25 are based on the old testament.

To believe that Paul is basing his words refers to seven trumpets is to assume that he knew of Revelations which had yet to be written.
It contradicts the basis of prophecy as the word states that the word and spirit are one, he then had no basis.
If we were to follow the example where several prophets are to take turns...they were speaking on the basis of only the old testament, no doctrinal work was as of yet available, - it also makes us understand certain practical aspects of prophecy within the church.
If Paul had only the old testament, that only left him with NU 10, and only two trumpets.

The identification of the church within Revelations is quite a temptation;
1. You have to base yourself on Paul and his seven trumpets.
2. You have to assume that by being in the new testament it has to be there.
3. You have to assume that because the church is mentioned in MT 24-25, it has to be in Revelations.
4. You have to assume that MT 24-25 and Revelations can't be literal.
5. You also have to assume that all prophecy has to be figurate and not literal.
5. You have to assume that the many contradictions and endless debates by current interpretations are to be accepted in spite of the existence of an orderly, progressive revelation within scripture, as per the words of Paul.
6. Finally, you have to assume that you are only limited by current interpretations.

If you were to explore a newer, more practical alternative;
1. Nu 10 only mentions two trumpets.
2. The placement of only two trumpets removes the church before Revelations begins.
3. You can now interpret prophecy literally.
4. You can now see MT 24-25 and Revelations as being a scenario that describes the literal panorama that coincides with the many details that have their origin in the old testament.
5. The many references that are based on the destruction of the first temple are now repeated in the last says with a difference, as per Ezequiel, Daniel and Zechariah, the nations are judged and Jerusalem will be rescued.
6. It only makes sense in this case for hebrew prophecy to be fulfilled with hebrews.

Questioning what doesn't make sense is the only way to get around the endless debates. While you can never guarantee a totally objective approach, having a functional basis for our interpretations is a step in the right direction. The criteria you establish is the only thing you have for a greater sense of objectivity and credibility.
Ultimately, our subjecting interpretations to scrutiny and better criteria falls in line with the words of Paul when he states that we are to be sure of what we believe.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

If we were to look at the debate and its origin we would have to admit the following:

The debate is that of the placement of the church in Revelations and when the rapture ocurrs.

The basis is almost exclusively based on these assumptions;
1. That MT 24-25 refers to the gentile church.
2. That Paul refers to seven trumpets.
3. That Revelations refers to the gentile church.

The words in Matthew are directed toward those that are present, the church is not even founded yet.
The inmediate fulfillment happens within one generation.
The tongues of flame and the sound of a rushing wind are present in the old testament and represent judgement.
The fact that only the hebrews and not the gentiles were to be effected is another reason for the referral to a hebrew church as the group to be addressed.
The events within MT 24-25 are based on the old testament.

To believe that Paul is basing his words refers to seven trumpets is to assume that he knew of Revelations which had yet to be written.
It contradicts the basis of prophecy as the word states that the word and spirit are one, he then had no basis.
If we were to follow the example where several prophets are to take turns...they were speaking on the basis of only the old testament, no doctrinal work was as of yet available, - it also makes us understand certain practical aspects of prophecy within the church.
If Paul had only the old testament, that only left him with NU 10, and only two trumpets.

The identification of the church within Revelations is quite a temptation;
1. You have to base yourself on Paul and his seven trumpets.
2. You have to assume that by being in the new testament it has to be there.
3. You have to assume that because the church is mentioned in MT 24-25, it has to be in Revelations.
4. You have to assume that MT 24-25 and Revelations can't be literal.
5. You also have to assume that all prophecy has to be figurate and not literal.
5. You have to assume that the many contradictions and endless debates by current interpretations are to be accepted in spite of the existence of an orderly, progressive revelation within scripture, as per the words of Paul.
6. Finally, you have to assume that you are only limited by current interpretations.

If you were to explore a newer, more practical alternative;
1. Nu 10 only mentions two trumpets.
2. The placement of only two trumpets removes the church before Revelations begins.
3. You can now interpret prophecy literally.
4. You can now see MT 24-25 and Revelations as being a scenario that describes the literal panorama that coincides with the many details that have their origin in the old testament.
5. The many references that are based on the destruction of the first temple are now repeated in the last says with a difference, as per Ezequiel, Daniel and Zechariah, the nations are judged and Jerusalem will be rescued.
6. It only makes sense in this case for hebrew prophecy to be fulfilled with hebrews.

Questioning what doesn't make sense is the only way to get around the endless debates. While you can never guarantee a totally objective approach, having a functional basis for our interpretations is a step in the right direction. The criteria you establish is the only thing you have for a greater sense of objectivity and credibility.
Ultimately, our subjecting interpretations to scrutiny and better criteria falls in line with the words of Paul when he states that we are to be sure of what we believe.

Yes, it seems that most end times prophecy is about a reconciliation of Israel to God. We, as Christians, are a very blessed beneficiary of that very long and very involved process.

 

[Zadok7000]

The basis is almost exclusively based on these assumptions;
1. That MT 24-25 refers to the gentile church.

There is no such thing as "the gentile church". There is the Church, period. Is Christ divided?
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

2. That Paul refers to seven trumpets.

Of course he does. He knew the book of Joshua. But beyond that, LAST MEANS LAST. No matter how many trumpets there are, the LAST IS THE LAST in 1Cor. 15:52. "last" = "eschatos" = extreme last in time or place; the end, last in temporal succession

3. That Revelations refers to the gentile church.

See #1.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

There is no such thing as "the gentile church". There is the Church, period. Is Christ divided?
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Yes, but there is a division between Jews who don't yet believe and the church. I think this is what "rdclmn7" meant. Check it out:

Rom 11:25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

The Jews and the Church (even though there are some Jews in the church who believe in Jesus) will not be united as "one new man" until the old order passes which is after the 1000 years...after death and devil have been thrown into the lake of fire.

Am I making sense? This whole thing is about reconciling man to God and it appears that it's being done in "stages".
God chose Abraham and made a covenant with him. Israel didn't obey and have been disciplined. While they are disciplined, the rest of the world who believe in Jesus gets a new covenant that brings them into "fold". Then Israel, under the old covenant, will be brought back. Then once back, the people under the old covenant are brought together with the people under the new covenant and form 'one new man'...

Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Of course he does. He knew the book of Joshua. But beyond that, LAST MEANS LAST. No matter how many trumpets there are, the LAST IS THE LAST in 1Cor. 15:52. "last" = "eschatos" = extreme last in time or place; the end, last in temporal succession

Paul would've also known the temporal succession of the trumpets blown for gathering the assembly to the door of the Temple in Numbers 10. It cannot be discounted.

 

[Zadok7000]

Yes, but there is a division between Jews who don't yet believe and the church. I think this is what "rdclmn7" meant. Check it out:

Rom 11:25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

There is no "gentile church". I cannot stress that enough. God loves all His children equally.

Paul would've also known the temporal succession of the trumpets blown for gathering the assembly to the door of the Temple in Numbers 10. It cannot be discounted.

Yes it can be discounted since we know there are 7. But I don't care if there are 100 trumpets or 7 or 2 or 1. The LAST IS THE LAST. There can literally be no more after the last. Simple.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

There is no "gentile church". I cannot stress that enough. God loves all His children equally.

Yes, I don't think "gentile church" is the correct word for it because it is made up of Jews and Gentiles.

We are not all one just yet. There is the church (made up of believers whether Jew or Gentile), there is Israel, there are people who died under law, and there are unbelievers. The church and Israel, both as God's chosen children, will one day be one.

But, keep in mind that those who die outside of Christ (knowing or believing in him) face judgment according to the law which, if I'm correct, happens at the 2nd resurrection. ("Many who are last will be first, and the first will be last")

Daniel was under law and will rise at the end of the millenium at the 2nd resurrection:
Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Yes it can be discounted since we know there are 7. But I don't care if there are 100 trumpets or 7 or 2 or 1. The LAST IS THE LAST. There can literally be no more after the last. Simple.

Why would you say there are 7 last trumpets? Because they are in the last book of the Bible?
There are two trumpets blown in succession to gather the people to God or together before God according to Numbers 10. Joel 2 also has a trumpet blast for gathering before the day of the Lord.
I believe that you are taking the 7 trumpets of Revelation too literally. We will actually hear the trumpets being blown when we are called to gather before God just like when the trumpets are blown to gather the people in the Bible.

 

[Zadok7000]

Why would you say there are 7 last trumpets? Because they are in the last book of the Bible?
There are two trumpets blown in succession to gather the people to God or together before God according to Numbers 10. Joel 2 also has a trumpet blast for gathering before the day of the Lord.
I believe that you are taking the 7 trumpets of Revelation too literally. We will actually hear the trumpets being blown when we are called to gather before God just like when the trumpets are blown to gather the people in the Bible.

There are 7 PERIOD. The Book of Joshua witnesses to it as well as Revelation. But the point you keep missing is, even if it was 2 (or any number, you pick), the LAST IS THE LAST.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

There are 7 PERIOD. The Book of Joshua witnesses to it as well as Revelation. But the point you keep missing is, even if it was 2 (or any number, you pick), the LAST IS THE LAST.

Oh...maybe I am missing your point...

Are you saying that the 7 trumpets in Revelation are the last trumpets that will ever be sounded and so the 7th one is the final and last one ever to be sounded?

I guess I don't understand... why would you think that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet ever when "last trumpet" could mean the second of two..."first/last"?

 

[Zadok7000]

Oh...maybe I am missing your point...

Are you saying that the 7 trumpets in Revelation are the last trumpets that will ever be sounded and so the 7th one is the final and last one ever to be sounded?

I guess I don't understand... why would you think that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet ever when "last trumpet" could mean the second of two..."first/last"?

God Bless you Jen, I could use patience like yours.

We know the 7th Trumpet is the "Trump of God", the "Last Trump", the one at which the Mystery of God is revealed; "there should be time no longer". After the 7th, there can be no more. It is literally impossible. This is exactly what Paul is saying in 1Cor. 15:52. He says in 1Thes. 4:16 that it happens "with a shout". JUST LIKE Joshua 6! And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city...So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

Prophetically, that "city" that falls is Babylon. Point being, there are 7 Trumpets and the 7th is the Last. You cannot have 2 and have the 2nd be the last and THEN have 7 more. Just not possible. In closing...

Isa. 12
And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

 

[MattHenry]

If we were to look at the debate and its origin we would have to admit the following:

The debate is that of the placement of the church in Revelations and when the rapture ocurrs.

The basis is almost exclusively based on these assumptions;
1. That MT 24-25 refers to the gentile church.

Even the temple being torn down was about one million Jews being killed. The tribulation has not been reserved to Christians only. I believe Matt 24 to be Jesus picture of the Christian era - Jew and Gentile.

2. That Paul refers to seven trumpets.
3. That Revelations refers to the gentile church.

I will cast my lot in with these men because adjacent hermeneutics support their contention:

9. Revelation 11:3: And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Romans 11:24 For if thou [the Gentiles]wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [the Jews]: how much more shall these[the Jews], which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others,the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ..."

Isaac Newton: "... God gives power to his two Witnesses, and they prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days clothed in sackcloth. They are called the two Olive-trees, with relation to thetwo Olive-trees, which in Zechary's vision, chap. 4 stand on either side of the golden candlestick to supply the lamps with oil: and Olive-trees, according to the Apostle Paul, represent Churches, Rom. 11. .... They are also called the two candlesticks; which in this Prophecy signify Churches, the seven Churches of Asia being represented by seven candlesticks...." - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John

Jamieson Faucett and Brown "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

The words in Matthew are directed toward those that are present,

For the benefit of all of us.

the church is not even founded yet.
The inmediate fulfillment

Of what?
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
All of the things that were listed before this verse which includes:

Luke 21:24 (anchor) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles in Jerusalem were fulfilled in 1967 when the Jews regained control, just as Daniel pegged 2500 years in advance:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5864395-daniels-time-of-the-end-and-the-mathematical-precision-of-prophecy.html

As well as the leafing of the fig tree:
Matthew 24:32 (link) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:

Hosea 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness;I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: [but] they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto [that] shame; and [their] abominations were according as they loved.

happens within one generation.

What kind of generation? If it were a metaphorical generation then that would indicate that all men that had the same atributes as those Jesus is addressing. In this case, perhaps all Christian men would not pass before all the things listed were filfilled. Indicating that there wouldn't be yet another covenant, for example.

generation
New Testament Greek Definition:
1074 genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; TDNT - 1:662,114; n f
AV - generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1; 42
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive
members of a genealogy
2b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments,
pursuits, character
2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive
generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

I tend to view it as a biblical genetic, or literal generation, but certainly the ambiguity would disallow the term to be presented as proof of any doctrine.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

God Bless you Jen, I could use patience like yours.

We know the 7th Trumpet is the "Trump of God", the "Last Trump", the one at which the Mystery of God is revealed; "there should be time no longer". After the 7th, there can be no more. It is literally impossible. This is exactly what Paul is saying in 1Cor. 15:52. He says in 1Thes. 4:16 that it happens "with a shout". JUST LIKE Joshua 6! And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city...So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

Well, the only problem I see in comparing the last trump to Joshua's account is that it is the people who are shouting and not Jesus....

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


1Cr 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–
1Cr 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Prophetically, that "city" that falls is Babylon. Point being, there are 7 Trumpets and the 7th is the Last. You cannot have 2 and have the 2nd be the last and THEN have 7 more. Just not possible. In closing...

But it depends on what the purpose of the trumpets are.
If there are no more trumpets, ever, then I'd lean toward agreeing with you...but if it is the two trumpets used to call people to God, then it means first/last as in Numbers 10.

I would think that it would be the two trumpets used to call people to God because that is what it says:
"trumpet call of God", a "loud command", a "flash"...hmmm...."a flash"....like lightning...

Mat 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

hmmm...coming of the Son of Man...hmmm...

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

hmmm....rooms in the Father's house...hmmm...

Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.



It seems that Jesus appears as a flash of lightning, with a loud command, and a trumpet call to Him, we enter our rooms in the Father's house until his wrath has passed by....then, after that, he comes in the clouds and every eye shall see him...

Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[fn3]

Mat 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

 

[rdclmn72]

This is where everyone can join in and get to the important stuff.

Zadok has brought up a fascinating new view of Joshua.
You can't deny that there is some serious symbology and that it amounts to a decent precedent for Revelations.

The situation is one where Joshua knows by the law the established use for the two metal trumpets specified by Nu 10. Yet, this is where God intervenes because the episode specifically has an eschatological emphasis.


Specifically;

DT 3&4 refer to MT Sion/Hermon where the law is read before crossing th Jordan.

Revelations refers to the multitude present at Sion.

Two trumpets are those used by Israel.

Seven trumpets are those used by God, which is also repeated in Revcelations.


Apart from the details that have been addressed, there still is the matter of the fall of the third temple.
Namely, you have a prediction, tongues of fire and the sound of rushing wind, yet there has to be a reason for the fall.

 

[Zadok7000]

Well, the only problem I see in comparing the last trump to Joshua's account is that it is the people who are shouting and not Jesus....

1Th 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Man, that non-KJV is annoying...lol.
The Greek just says "with a shout" - doesn't say if it is the Lord or His Army or both. But it doesn't matter in the least. The Archangel's voice (the "seventh angel"), the Trump of God ("Mystery of God finished") tell us it's the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 10). There can be "time no longer" once 1Thes. 4:16-17 happens. The Last trumpet means Last.

But it depends on what the purpose of the trumpets are. If there are no more trumpets, ever, then I'd lean toward agreeing with you...but if it is the two trumpets used to call people to God, then it means first/last as in Numbers 10.

It DOES NOT MATTER. There cannot, literally, be 2 Trumpets and then another 7 AFTER THE LAST. If you want to say the 2 Silver trumpets of Num. 10 (the 7 Trumpets were rams's horns in Joshua) correspond to the 6th and 7th Trumpets, then you may have something interesting to study. But that is the one and ONLY way Num. 10 could overlap 1Thes. 4.

It seems that Jesus appears as a flash of lightning, with a loud command, and a trumpet call to Him, we enter our rooms in the Father's house until his wrath has passed by....then, after that, he comes in the clouds and every eye shall see him...

That's the old "two comings are really one" jibberjabber of the pre-trib theory. We will be protected on Mt. Zion while His Wrath is poured out.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

That's the old "two comings are really one" jibberjabber of the pre-trib theory. We will be protected on Mt. Zion while His Wrath is poured out.

Then why is there a resurrection and "going into rooms" before wrath and a resurrection also after when Jesus physically returns?

Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.

 

[Zadok7000]

Then why is there a resurrection and "going into rooms" before wrath and a resurrection also after when Jesus physically returns?

I answered this in another thread. There is no "other resurrection" until the end of the Millennium. The 7th Trumpet (His Return) and the Vials of Wrath cannot be seperated. Unless you're talking about minutes?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I answered this in another thread. There is no "other resurrection" until the end of the Millennium. The 7th Trumpet (His Return) and the Vials of Wrath cannot be seperated. Unless you're talking about minutes?

I must've missed that other thread...

There was a resurrection of people at Christ's death.
There will be a resurrection of people before wrath.
There will be a resurrection of people at Christ's physical return.

All of that is the first resurrection.

There will be a resurrection at the end of the millenium.
That is the 2nd resurrection.

 

[Zadok7000]

There will be a resurrection of people before wrath.
There will be a resurrection of people at Christ's physical return.

Documentation please.

"Before wrath" and "at Christ's physical return" are the exact same time: the 7th Trumpet.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Documentation please.

"Before wrath" and "at Christ's physical return" are the exact same time: the 7th Trumpet.

Before wrath:

Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.

and this

1Th 1:10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead-Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

and this

1Th 5:9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.



You do realize that there's no fight at Jesus' physical return, correct? Who can make war against God?

Rev 19:21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


Once God gives the word (sword out of His mouth), His creation obeys. There's no one left to pour wrath (trumpets and vials) out on. It already happened by the time Jesus physically returns.

 

[Zadok7000]

Before wrath:

Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.

and this

1Th 1:10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead-Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

and this

1Th 5:9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.



You do realize that there's no fight at Jesus' physical return, correct? Who can make war against God?

Rev 19:21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


Once God gives the word (sword out of His mouth), His creation obeys. There's no one left to pour wrath (trumpets and vials) out on. It already happened by the time Jesus physically returns.

Jen, I've read and commented on Isa. 26 several times now...I'm not disputing it in the least. His Elect do not suffer His Wrath. But that doesn't mean the Wrath and the Return are at 2 different times. What does putting up a fight have to do with anything? The 7th Trumpet is when "time is no more". The Harvest occurs then. The Return and the Wrath are at the same time. He "doth Judge and make War" when He Returns. That is the Wrath of God.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jen, I've read and commented on Isa. 26 several times now...I'm not disputing it in the least. His Elect do not suffer His Wrath. But that doesn't mean the Wrath and the Return are at 2 different times. What does putting up a fight have to do with anything? The 7th Trumpet is when "time is no more". The Harvest occurs then. The Return and the Wrath are at the same time. He "doth Judge and make War" when He Returns. That is the Wrath of God.

Have patience with me as I ask...

Revelation 16 describes bowls of wrath.
1. sores on those with mark
2. Sea turned to blood
3. Rivers and streams turned to blood
4. Sun scorches
5. Darkness
6. Euphrates dries up, demons, "Behold, I come like a thief"
7. It is finished...hail, earthquake. Jesus returns.

Now, all of that has got to take time. There can't be sun scorching and darkness at the same time, right?

So,this is the wrath of God and we are not appointed to suffer it, and there is a resurrection before and after this happens. How can God promise we will not suffer wrath, promise a resurrection and hiding in rooms before wrath and then not return for us until after it? He can't. He will keep His promises.