Question: Religious titles

[visionary]

Christians can call it eucharist, amongst other things. We get it from scripture.

καὶ εὐχαριστήσας ἔκλασε καὶ εἶπε· λάβετε φάγετε· τοῦτό μού ἐστι τὸ σῶμα τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν κλώμενον· τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν. 1 Cor. 11:24

There's a number of references like this in scripture.

Even the scripture you point to is of the Passover Seder and not the euchrist.

 

[ContraMundum]

Even the scripture you point to is of the Passover Seder and not the euchrist.

We know your point of view, Vis.

You don't believe in the means of grace or the vital relationship between Pesach and the Lord's Supper/Eucharist/Mass/Lord's Table/Holy Communion as Christians do, so I have no idea why you have to bring this rabbit trail up and then press the point. You know Christians have thought this out to the fullest for around 2000 years and the truth is not going to change because you think everyone has been wrong and clueless about scripture all that time.

Would it be ok with you if we stayed on topic?

 

[Heber]

The only title worth holding is: Believer in (the Son of G_d / Jesus / Yeshua etc)

 

[visionary]

We know your point of view, Vis.

You don't believe in the means of grace or the vital relationship between Pesach and the Lord's Supper/Eucharist/Mass/Lord's Table/Holy Communion as Christians do, so I have no idea why you have to bring this rabbit trail up and then press the point. You know Christians have thought this out to the fullest for around 2000 years and the truth is not going to change because you think everyone has been wrong and clueless about scripture all that time.

Would it be ok with you if we stayed on topic?

You seem to need reminding that MJ does not believe the euchrist has anything to do with the means of grace or have any vital relationship with Pesach. You should know by now not to throw it around in the MJ section of the forum like it is some approved position. Anyone lurking around reading these posts does not need to get the swrong impression about MJ.

You need to stop throwing in rabbit trails.

 

[Heber]

I don't think anyone can make such a categorical statement, Vis. By what right do you declare this to be the case? Until MJism gets a theology and a statement of faith to which all members must adhere, you simply cannot assert what MJism believes, or not, and neither can anyone else.

I do not usually disagree with you enough to post against you, but on this occasion you are in error on this issue.

 

[visionary]

I don't think anyone can make such a categorical statement, Vis. By what right do you declare this to be the case? Until MJism gets a theology and a statement of faith to which all members must adhere, you simply cannot assert what MJism believes, or not, and neither can anyone else.

I do not usually disagree with you enough to post against you, but on this occasion you are in error on this issue.

Can you find any MJ organization that agrees with Contra on this issue? MJAA?

 

[Heber]

You actually said MJism doesn't believe - thus declaring that ALL MJism doesn't believe in the word or action of eucharist etc.

That is wrong. There are many within MJism who do believe in the eucharist and many who see a very clear connection between it and Passover.

I take it you know what the eucharist is? Not sure what the reference to MJAA has to do with it - that is but one small part of the worldwide MJish movement - it is NOT a defining body for that movement.

 

[visionary]

You need to point to a body, a large enough body of MJ who support euchrist. From my knowledge, which I will not declare as vast by any stretch of the imagination, one of the unique features of MJ, is their "judaic worship style" which would not include roman ideology.

 

[Heber]

You need to point to a body, a large enough body of MJ who support euchrist.

Why? You made a categorical statement that MESSIANIC JUDAISM does not believe in the eucharist - the context in which you wrote was that no one under that name believed in any form of eucharist. That is patently wrong. You DID NOT say any one organisation - you claimed that the WHOLE of MJism didn't and you are wrong. I know plenty of Messianic believers who believe in, and go to, some form of communion / Lord's supper / eucharist etc etc.

Do not wriggle so, it doesn't become you.

 

[fremen]

This sort of summarizes something I have yet to understand: Is MJism a religion of its own, or a Jewish flavor of Protestant/Evangelical Christianity? I've seen some write about this, but never really understood.

 

[visionary]

One of the most distinctive features about MJ is their return to Judiasm while retaining a faith in Yehsua as the Messiah. Anyone who tries to attach the name Messianic "Judaism" and yet not support a Judaistic worship style is misleading.

 

[Ivy]

The only title worth holding is: Believer in (the Son of G_d / Jesus / Yeshua etc)

i.e. Undeserving Recipient of Mercy and Love

 

[ContraMundum]

That is wrong. There are many within MJism who do believe in the eucharist and many who see a very clear connection between it and Passover.

I thank you, and in my experience this is true. The three or so MJ congregations I have visited all celebrate it in the same manner as most Protestants do, often using a traditional Jewish blessing before the scriptural words of institution, which is fine of course.

The real issue is that Vis doesn't approve of using the scriptural word for thanksgiving ("eucharist" when Anglicised)- because Christians also use it. If I had dressed up the rite in Judeo-speak maybe she would have not even noticed the post. Perhaps I should call it a "Messianic Seder" or "Yeshua's kiddish" or whatever to make her happy. Same difference, same rite, same means of grace, of course. It's all about the costume to some people, so perhaps it needs to be dressed up to look "Jewish" more.

One thing I have learned- the more contact with MJs (in the real world) I have the more I see them as having common ground with me and my faith awhile it appears that they have less in common with some of the people that post here using the MJ icon.

I take it you know what the eucharist is?

That's a good question that I'd love to see answered.

 

[ContraMundum]

One of the most distinctive features about MJ is their return to Judiasm while retaining a faith in Yehsua as the Messiah. Anyone who tries to attach the name Messianic "Judaism" and yet not support a Judaistic worship style is misleading.

...and the $64 question is...what is truly "Judaistic" and what isn't. I think true worship of God is found in the liturgy the ancients churches use- the liturgy grounded and founded in both Temple and synagogue liturgy, where almost every point is from ancient Judaism, down to the colours of the vestments. Others, however, think it should look more like a modern synagogue mixed with pentecostalism or versions thereof. I think there's some room for both, others think only theirs is ok. I guess I'm just more open minded on this point than some. I have no idea where you stand on this, and it's ok by me no matter what you choose to follow.

 

[fremen]

I thought being a MJ meant believing in Jesus and yet following the (written) Torah. Am I wrong in such an assumption?

 

[ContraMundum]

I thought being a MJ meant believing in Jesus and yet following the (written) Torah. Am I wrong in such an assumption?

I think MJism shares in the same dilemma that Judaism has- that is: how to follow the Torah when it's clear that one cannot follow every point. The decider is whose halacha one chooses to follow- Yeshua's and His decendants or the decendants of the Pharisees, the modern Rabbis. In both religions there is a lot of ground and room for interpretation IMHO.

Over the years I have discovered that following Yeshua is a lot harder than following the Rabbis. The commandment to love and forgive above all things and in everything is the ultimate human challenge, and all theology, ritual and religion fades into insignificance when one really looks in the mirror and works out that one has failed to love on a day to day basis. However, God's grace continually sees us through, helps us in our need and teaches us to love when we seemingly cannot.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

[Ivy]

One thing I have learned- the more contact with MJs (in the real world) I have the more I see them as having common ground with me and my faith awhile it appears that they have less in common with some of the people that post here using the MJ icon.

That's an interesting statement. What do you see them as having in common?