Question on: "God made me do it" versus your choice to do it.

[OliverC]

A Christian I like wrote:

"If God is trying to get you to step out and do something that is
uncomfortable, be sure you make the right choice."

I am not clear, theologically, where God's will for us to do something and our choice to do it, starts and ends.

To elaborate, how do we know God is willing us and how do we know when it is our will, might be another way to put the question.

Does anyone wish to offer their understanding?
Thanks!

 

[lesliedellow]

I can think of several occasions when something within was prompting me to do something directly contrary to my conscious inclinations. One of which was to become a Christian in the first place.

 

[OliverC]

I can think of several occasions when something within was prompting me to do something directly contrary to my conscious inclinations. One of which was to become a Christian in the first place.

Hi
were those several occasions always positive?
Did the promptings have a flavour or distinctive difference about them than perhaps an inclination to act which wasn't divine?

 

[Lukaris]

Personally I do not understand a subjective sense of God willing me to do something. Christ said that to love Him is to keep His commandments which I understand to be of living by faith & dealing with the challenges of everyday life. I do believe by the grace of God individuals are moved to good works if their disposition is virtuous potentially even to a miracle. Although with God all things are possible; it is not my place to deny where His will is done.

 

[OliverC]

Personally I do not understand a subjective sense of God willing me to do something. Christ said that to love Him is to keep His commandments which I understand to be of living by faith & dealing with the challenges of everyday life. I do believe by the grace of God individuals are moved to good works if their disposition is virtuous potentially even to a miracle. Although with God all things are possible; it is not my place to deny where His will is done.

Thanks Lukaris
It is an honest and modest perspective. I would agree at this stage.

One way I could see God's will is through our conscience or inclining us to do good or love others despite the mind telling us otherwise.

 

[lesliedellow]

Hi
were those several occasions always positive?
Did the promptings have a flavour or distinctive difference about them than perhaps an inclination to act which wasn't divine?

I'm not sure what you mean by "positive". The one thing which can be said is that they went against my conscious wishes, but, when they wouldn't go away, I ended up giving in to them.

 

[FlawedSheep]

I've always found the concept of God "making" someone do anything a little, tiny bit contrary to the examples we have in the Bible.

God may push, pull, guide, suggest, and all of that, but the choice is still down to you. It's why when someone says "God made me do it" in regards to various acts, I think it would be more appropriate to say "I believed this was the will of God, so I did it". Where does the line blur? Who knows. I'm not privy to the way in which people who assume God made them do something think and know only that the choices I make are choices I make willingly and of my own free will, even if I believe God influenced the initial thoughts about that thing it is still something I have actively decided to do.

I read various passages in the Bible and while it's full of God wanting people to do things, it's also full of people making the decision to follow God's will above their own. When He does something, He does it. When He simply wants to influence us to live a certain way, He whispers. But when He wants someone to do something, He tells them to do it and then they make a choice whether they place such faith in Him that they'll do whatever He asks of them. Very few seem to be 'forced' to do anything, as the passages detailing God's questioning over why individuals have failed to do as he requested and the actions He carries out as a result of that show. He may make a plague come and go, and He may give people the strength to do certain things, but the people who He directly told to do something did so off of their own backs.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

A Christian I like wrote:

"If God is trying to get you to step out and do something that is
uncomfortable, be sure you make the right choice."

I am not clear, theologically, where God's will for us to do something and our choice to do it, starts and ends.

To elaborate, how do we know God is willing us and how do we know when it is our will, might be another way to put the question.

Does anyone wish to offer their understanding?
Thanks!

I believe the answer to that is : Our will needs to be encircled in Gods will for our lives . We can actually discover what Gods will is for us on a general scale by reading his instructional Word on how to live, how to treat others, what lifestyles are off limits to us , how we are to respond to adversity or when others persecute us. So, when we are trying to determine if an optional choice is something that falls into Gods Will, we should take a good look at Scripture to see if we find compatibility or lack there of concerning the choice we are contemplating. Nearly all the time, we will find this answer in Gods Word, and, for the off chance we don't....then taking a long hard prayerful look at Gods very character , nature, and person will reveal what is a permissible choice of action versus a poor choice. Gods character and nature of holiness, sacredness, morality, etc...is yet another good barometer for how we are to live our lives. Additionally, God has given us all a Moral Conscience so we could know right from wrong and it will guide us well if we don't try to suppress it so we can do what we want to do regardless. Other measures of wisdom that will help is going to a very mature Christian whos life reflects Christ very well to present our dilemma to them in confidence and allow them to pass along Godly wisdom on the matter. Finally, we should ask ourselves : If I do THIS action...will it in anyway be good or bad for the cause for Christ and my Christian Walk (?) .

Using the above standard, will yield a wise choice . As we grow in our relationship to Christ, we will find that our Will will start actually reflecting Gods will more and more because we will desire to be obedient to him first and foremost.

That said, in scripture, there is such a think as Freedom in Christ...and this phrase essentially means that so long as we don't violate any standard or mandate in scripture or Gods very nature and character.... then we have leeway to engage in a given choice but still it would be a good idea to bathe it in prayer and ask God to walk with you each and every step thru the process . Such examples of Freedom in Christ might be : Choosing a career to enter into / choosing to date a genuine Christian of the opposite sex / deciding what to eat for dinner tonight / or what brand of car to look at for purchasing .

In conclusion, try to filter your will and choices thru God and the sources he has given you because such sources will offer you much Godly wisdom that you need .

Enjoy your Christian Walk which is the most blessed kind of life imaginable because it is God led and orchestrated. Regards.

 

[Hammster]

A Christian I like wrote:

"If God is trying to get you to step out and do something that is
uncomfortable, be sure you make the right choice."

I am not clear, theologically, where God's will for us to do something and our choice to do it, starts and ends.

To elaborate, how do we know God is willing us and how do we know when it is our will, might be another way to put the question.

Does anyone wish to offer their understanding?
Thanks!

I usually start with this.

You planned evil against me; God planned it for good to bring about the present result — the survival of many people. (Genesis 50:20 HCSB)

Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery. It was a sinful act that they planned according to their wills. God, however, said that what they planned for evil, He planned for good. God didn't make them do it, though, because God cannot sin.

So how did He do it? How did He get them to do something sinful without sinning Himself? There's a lot of speculation on that, but here's my view.

As believers, the more time we spend with God, in His word, in prayer, with His people in fellowship and in worship, the more we are conformed into the image of Christ. That's not us willfully changing, but Him changing is. So the more of a Him we have, the more we are confirmed. If that's true, the opposite is true, too. The less influence He puts on us, the less like Him we will be, and the more sinful we become. It's sort of like a faucet. The more you open it, the more water comes out.

So back to Joe's bros. They were so angry with him, they wanted to kill him. I think God influenced them to the point where they didn't want to kill him, but instead sold him into slavery. That way, their plan was carried out sinfully, while God's plan was carried out without Him sinning.

That's a nutshell post on my view.

 

[OliverC]

Hi FlawedSheep
I see, so there is no sense of obligation it is always down to choice. It means that we must recognise His will over our own. Is the whisper a thought?

I think I should check the scriptures for examples.

...

I read various passages in the Bible and while it's full of God wanting people to do things, it's also full of people making the decision to follow God's will above their own. When He does something, He does it. When He simply wants to influence us to live a certain way, He whispers. But when He wants someone to do something, He tells them to do it and then they make a choice whether they place such faith in Him that they'll do whatever He asks of them.

Very few seem to be 'forced' to do anything, as the passages detailing God's questioning over why individuals have failed to do as he requested and the actions He carries out as a result of that show. He may make a plague come and go, and He may give people the strength to do certain things, but the people who He directly told to do something did so off of their own backs.

 

[OliverC]

I'm not sure what you mean by "positive". The one thing which can be said is that they went against my conscious wishes, but, when they wouldn't go away, I ended up giving in to them.

Hi
By positive I meant that they aren't sinful. I imagine that you feel you were drawn towards God against your conscious wishes, is that correct?

 

[OliverC]

Hi Hammster
Thanks, in a nutshell then would you say it is a good influence over a potentially negative or sinful influence which distinguishes God's will against one's own?

The example below is that Joe's bros would have killed but God influenced them to honour life, even that of their seen enemy?

I ask as I am looking for a way to distinguish God's will from man's will, and that appears to be a way.

I usually start with this.

You planned evil against me; God planned it for good to bring about the present result — the survival of many people. (Genesis 50:20 HCSB)

Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery. It was a sinful act that they planned according to their wills. God, however, said that what they planned for evil, He planned for good. God didn't make them do it, though, because God cannot sin.

So how did He do it? How did He get them to do something sinful without sinning Himself? There's a lot of speculation on that, but here's my view.

As believers, the more time we spend with God, in His word, in prayer, with His people in fellowship and in worship, the more we are conformed into the image of Christ. That's not us willfully changing, but Him changing is. So the more of a Him we have, the more we are confirmed. If that's true, the opposite is true, too. The less influence He puts on us, the less like Him we will be, and the more sinful we become. It's sort of like a faucet. The more you open it, the more water comes out.

So back to Joe's bros. They were so angry with him, they wanted to kill him. I think God influenced them to the point where they didn't want to kill him, but instead sold him into slavery. That way, their plan was carried out sinfully, while God's plan was carried out without Him sinning.

That's a nutshell post on my view.

 

[OliverC]

Thanks TheyCallMeDavid
I take from your reply that there is a "way to live" which can be aligned with God's will in the scripture and this in turn continues to be God's will on us whilst we make our choices. That makes sense and I can see how God's will can be repulsive to those who stand on the outside indulging in pleasures of the flesh, whilst those who walk with God's will find strength and freedom. I have elaborated on your point of course, but I think this fits.

The second part about looking for answers through prayer. It seems to me that this is the harder part to understand, as above we have a scriptural reference, but in prayer how does one tell God's will or God's reply apart from our own. Is the touchstone that we leave prayer feeling a sense of certainty of what we should do next being in our best interest and in God's will? Would we then say "It is God's will" meaning "We consulted God through Prayer and it feels certain and good"?

I believe the answer to that is : Our will needs to be encircled in Gods will for our lives . We can actually discover what Gods will is for us on a general scale by reading his instructional Word on how to live, how to treat others, what lifestyles are off limits to us , how we are to respond to adversity or when others persecute us. So, when we are trying to determine if an optional choice is something that falls into Gods Will, we should take a good look at Scripture to see if we find compatibility or lack there of concerning the choice we are contemplating. Nearly all the time, we will find this answer in Gods Word, and, for the off chance we don't....then taking a long hard prayerful look at Gods very character , nature, and person will reveal what is a permissible choice of action versus a poor choice. Gods character and nature of holiness, sacredness, morality, etc...is yet another good barometer for how we are to live our lives. Additionally, God has given us all a Moral Conscience so we could know right from wrong and it will guide us well if we don't try to suppress it so we can do what we want to do regardless. Other measures of wisdom that will help is going to a very mature Christian whos life reflects Christ very well to present our dilemma to them in confidence and allow them to pass along Godly wisdom on the matter. Finally, we should ask ourselves : If I do THIS action...will it in anyway be good or bad for the cause for Christ and my Christian Walk (?) .

Using the above standard, will yield a wise choice . As we grow in our relationship to Christ, we will find that our Will will start actually reflecting Gods will more and more because we will desire to be obedient to him first and foremost.

That said, in scripture, there is such a think as Freedom in Christ...and this phrase essentially means that so long as we don't violate any standard or mandate in scripture or Gods very nature and character.... then we have leeway to engage in a given choice but still it would be a good idea to bathe it in prayer and ask God to walk with you each and every step thru the process . Such examples of Freedom in Christ might be : Choosing a career to enter into / choosing to date a genuine Christian of the opposite sex / deciding what to eat for dinner tonight / or what brand of car to look at for purchasing .

In conclusion, try to filter your will and choices thru God and the sources he has given you because such sources will offer you much Godly wisdom that you need .

Enjoy your Christian Walk which is the most blessed kind of life imaginable because it is God led and orchestrated. Regards.

 

[Hammster]

Hi Hammster
Thanks, in a nutshell then would you say it is a good influence over a potentially negative or sinful influence which distinguishes God's will against one's own?

The example below is that Joe's bros would have killed but God influenced them to honour life, even that of their seen enemy?

I ask as I am looking for a way to distinguish God's will from man's will, and that appears to be a way.

I think, left to his own devices and apart from influence of God, man will sin in horrific ways. So God will control the level of sin in order to achieve certain results. Even to the point where I can say that I know non-Christians who are better people than I am.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

............... but in prayer how does one tell God's will or God's reply apart from our own. Is the touchstone that we leave prayer feeling a sense of certainty of what we should do next being in our best interest and in God's will? Would we then say "It is God's will" meaning "We consulted God through Prayer and it feels certain and good"?

Good question. The answer is : To know the difference between it being Gods Will or our Will , is to see if there is any difference by taking into account the entire counsel of Gods Word in conjunction with what you believe you are being nudged by God toward . In order to 'hear' God speaking to your Soul (or...impressing upon your Soul) requires the Holy Spirit of God living in you ; and you get this when we have totally surrendered our life to Jesus and are trusting in his atonement merits for payment of all our sins. So, may I ask if you have reached this place in your life yet ? If so, then you have Gods presence and wisdom available to you.

As I mentioned in my last post, we examine Gods Word, Gods very character/nature/ and Person in light of morality, holiness, and sacredness.../our God given Moral Conscience / and finally bathe it all with prayer for even greater insight. This is available to every genuine Christian whos made Christ his King and Savior .

Its also a good idea to know, up front, what Gods general will is for you, your life, etc...so you can live that kind of a centered life. IE: In a general sense, Gods Will for all CHristians is to : Rejoice , pray , give thanks, bear every good fruit, and grow in the love and knowledge of God . These things should be a part of every CHristians daily life . Then , as to more specific things where you wonder if it is Gods Will or not...you apply the instruments I mentioned above. WHen you do , you may find that it is NOT Gods Will because it would violate his Word or it might be a less than moral action or that it will bring harm to you or someone else ; you may also find that it is a neutral issue whereby it falls into the Freedom of Christ category which means God is ok with you doing it .. but even with this, I would move cautiously forward and always filter your actions thru Gods Word and his character.

Discovering Gods Will isn't really a difficult thing and I think that many people make a bigger deal about it than what it really should be ; if a person allows the filter to be Gods Word, Gods character, ones Moral Conscience, prayer to acquire greater Godly wisdom, and consulting a good trusted mature Christian or two.... you should be able to make a good sound rational Godly decision .

Did that help any ?

 

[OliverC]

Good question. The answer is : To know the difference between it being Gods Will or our Will , is to see if there is any difference by taking into account the entire counsel of Gods Word in conjunction with what you believe you are being nudged by God toward . In order to 'hear' God speaking to your Soul (or...impressing upon your Soul) requires the Holy Spirit of God living in you ; and you get this when we have totally surrendered our life to Jesus and are trusting in his atonement merits for payment of all our sins. So, may I ask if you have reached this place in your life yet ? If so, then you have Gods presence and wisdom available to you.

As I mentioned in my last post, we examine Gods Word, Gods very character/nature/ and Person in light of morality, holiness, and sacredness.../our God given Moral Conscience / and finally bathe it all with prayer for even greater insight. This is available to every genuine Christian whos made Christ his King and Savior .

Its also a good idea to know, up front, what Gods general will is for you, your life, etc...so you can live that kind of a centered life. IE: In a general sense, Gods Will for all CHristians is to : Rejoice , pray , give thanks, bear every good fruit, and grow in the love and knowledge of God . These things should be a part of every CHristians daily life . Then , as to more specific things where you wonder if it is Gods Will or not...you apply the instruments I mentioned above. WHen you do , you may find that it is NOT Gods Will because it would violate his Word or it might be a less than moral action or that it will bring harm to you or someone else ; you may also find that it is a neutral issue whereby it falls into the Freedom of Christ category which means God is ok with you doing it .. but even with this, I would move cautiously forward and always filter your actions thru Gods Word and his character.

Discovering Gods Will isn't really a difficult thing and I think that many people make a bigger deal about it than what it really should be ; if a person allows the filter to be Gods Word, Gods character, ones Moral Conscience, prayer to acquire greater Godly wisdom, and consulting a good trusted mature Christian or two.... you should be able to make a good sound rational Godly decision .

Did that help any ?

Hi TheyCallMeDavid
Yes, thanks, that is helpful and it makes sense to me. In answer to your first question, on if I have totally surrendered my life to Jesus and if I am at that point, my answer is 'no, but I have not given up'. It comes down to questions I have about Christianity (scripture to be more exact) and the personal challenges I would face as a Christian if I took the plunge. Something keeps telling me it isn't right for me, yet I find a pull towards Christ and joy thinking my sins will be forgiven.

I think, left to his own devices and apart from influence of God, man will sin in horrific ways. So God will control the level of sin in order to achieve certain results. Even to the point where I can say that I know non-Christians who are better people than I am.

I can see your point, Hammster, thanks. On your last point, it would perhaps come down to how one defines a Christian, I imagine.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Hi TheyCallMeDavid
Yes, thanks, that is helpful and it makes sense to me. In answer to your first question, on if I have totally surrendered my life to Jesus and if I am at that point, my answer is 'no, but I have not given up'. It comes down to questions I have about Christianity (scripture to be more exact) and the personal challenges I would face as a Christian if I took the plunge. Something keeps telling me it isn't right for me, yet I find a pull towards Christ and joy thinking my sins will be forgiven.
..........................

This site will help you get your questions answered : Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

I was once where you are right now. Becoming a Christian does mean that you surrender your authority over to Christ the Creator...but it is a move that greater makes life better, more meaningful, with purpose, knowing you are reconciled to God and that all sins are erased , and to make it to a safe glorious eternal residence . What will stand in the way is a persons pride and wanting to call ones own shots in life ...which are usually not good for the person anyway.

Essentially, the choice is : Enjoy a few decades of earthly living doing anything you please regardless of its consequences and thereby making yourself your own 'god' , or, give the Universes Creator his rightful place in your life and live a pleasing earthly life to him knowing you have become a real genuine CHild of the Most High God.

There is a sacrifice when you become a Christian...but, it betters you in any case. In fact, the Christian Walk is incomparable to doing life otherwise. I hope you will make the right choice and if you do, id love to know about it when that happens. In case youre not sure on how to do that, it is summed up beautifully in Romans 10:8-12 if you care to google that . Then you will have all the perks of knowing God which will include you knowing his will for you and actually feeling his unmistakable love toward you. He will then work in your Soul to change you to a person you never thought you could be , called a Born Again experience. Something that is very true and real and even measurable .

But remember, this life is very short. Sometimes its not even one day ..other times it may be 25 years or 50 years or 100 years, but where you are at right now is highly highly risky . Please, take this issue with the highest of importance right now just in case you leave Earth earlier than you had anticipated. I know a 14 year old Boy who has just weeks to live , if that .

Im here for you. David.

 

[parsley]

Something keeps telling me it isn't right for me, yet I find a pull towards Christ and joy thinking my sins will be forgiven.

That's a nice thought. There is definitely more freedom to move forward once we let go of what regret was behind us. And this internal guidance He offers has immeasurable value -- I would be lost without His regular input.

when someone says "God made me do it" in regards to various acts, I think it would be more appropriate to say "I believed this was the will of God, so I did it". Where does the line blur? Who knows.

This is a continual dilemma, but gets better as we learn to recognize it.
I find that when there is a cyclical fear-laden thought, that is more likely my own brain saying "I tried that already and it did/didn't work."

If there is an accusatory thought, that is more likely harassment from the enemy (a subject you might not be comfortable with, I don't know). Or personal fears and blame.

There are a few "go to Timbuktu" thoughts that pop in, and I roll my eyes... but if the word "Morocco" floats through, I might look up news, check job listings, and explore what that might have meant.

More often than not, what I hear leads me toward meaningful circumstances. Like in the parable of the talents, the more I follow the little leads He entrusts me with, the easier it is for me to work with the larger leads.

I know people who get direction from dreams, and sometimes in that mode it is a cleaner message -- no daily clutter surrounding it, less brain reaction that cancels out what it heard.

We argue with God about what makes sense, even after years of recognizing His voice. I have found a general timing of how long I can argue before I need to agree, lol.

An example: I'm working on the computer and I hear "get up and check your phone messages." My mind says I'll get it later, I need to finish looking up where the meeting is. I hear it again, and say yeah yeah I will.

At that point I know I will lose time and ground if I don't follow through. So I check my phone messages, and find out the meeting was canceled.

Those are the most common sorts of ways I hear from God -- lower consequence, about daily motions. Very conversational.

I have had several alerts to changes at work, given through dreams. I would see a scenario that I wouldn't dream up myself, and have a feeling it related to a venture... write it down and contemplate, sort through symbols and remark aha! This is like that situation, this person is like someone I know. And within a day, find a drastic change announced that filled in the blanks.

I was also given dreams that showed motives - through symbolism - of people I would need to deal with. Those were very helpful in not being overly accommodating, or trusting someone more than I should have.

God leads and directs in very personal, specific ways, if we listen and reflect, and follow through with exploring the lead.

would you say it is a good influence over a potentially negative or sinful influence which distinguishes God's will against one's own?

Not necessarily, but that could be true in the beginning. If you live your life in devotion to God for a while, there are fewer temptations to sin, IMO (the sin is more pride and negligence).. so fewer inner voices demanding perks.

But remember, this life is very short

So true.

 

[Emmy]

Dear OliverC. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: "Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus tells us: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Very important: God wants our Love, freely given and NO tags attached.
We can ask God for Love and Joy, ( Matthew 7: 7-10) then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. God will see our sincere efforts, and God will Bless us.
We keep asking and thanking God, then share all Love and Joy all around us
Love is very catching, and we will find that we gradually will change into the men and women, which God wants us to become. People around us will treat us the same as we treat people, and people will know that we are representing God`s Love: we will be sign-posts to God our Heavenly Father.
Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us: JESUS IS THE WAY. We are God`s representatives, and God will Bless us again and again.
The Bible tells us to " Repent," and to "Be Born Again." Life will be enjoyable and with God on our side, Who or What, can be against us? God is Love, and
we do what God wants us to do: show an imperfect world how strong Love is,
and what Love can achieve. I say this with love, Oliver. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[98cwitr]

A Christian I like wrote:

"If God is trying to get you to step out and do something that is
uncomfortable, be sure you make the right choice."

I am not clear, theologically, where God's will for us to do something and our choice to do it, starts and ends.

To elaborate, how do we know God is willing us and how do we know when it is our will, might be another way to put the question.

Does anyone wish to offer their understanding?
Thanks!

OK So work this logic out for me and let me know your thoughts

God knows all things, past, present, and future.

God knows all things you will ever do and also your final destination (heaven or hell) before you're even created (and therefore before you've ever made a decision on anything from your perspective, from His perspective though all those "decisions" are already made and apparent).

God decides to create you anyway despite everything.

2 things you have to believe for the above to be true

1. God is Omniscient.
2. God is the Creator.

How does "free will" come into play?