Question for Atheists

[chrisd53]

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct? So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

 

[awesome liver]

how do you prove god exists? by falsifying one thing does not validate another, btw.

 

[KerrMetric]

I'll apologise for my faith.

THERE IS NO LAW OF CONSERVATION OF MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you want to argue against atheism (and this is the wrong forum for that) then don't start off with an error.

 

[Caphi]

First off, your question is not for "evolutionists," per se. Evolution has nothing to do with the initial origin of either matter or life. To say what you say is equivalent to asking "gravitationalists" to explain algae populations.

Secondly, any failure to answer your question does not instantly validate your God. For one thing, you will still have thousands of other religions to contend with. For another, there are other possible non-religious explanations.

Your question, though. The Big Bang, as it were, is not merely the beginning of matter but the beginning of time itself, as the theory goes (though it is, I remind you, largely consistent with General Relativity). To say that the matter "came from somewhere" is to imply that there was a time when there was no matter and another time when there was matter. This is a fallacy. The matter was there at time zero. There was no time without matter. If you would like an explanation for this too, string theory has the best one so far. I suggest you look into it.

 

[awesome liver]

flying spaghetti monster created the universe, obviously.

 

[Ryal Kane]

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

A little accurate but not very. There's a very broad spectrum of atheist beliefs and opinions. Some Christians are very closed minded and some are very open to discusssion and debate. The same is true of atheists. There's a lot of Christians on this board alone that know more about science and evolution than I ever will.

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct? So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

I believe the most simple and honest answer is "We don't know" The big bang was a rapid expansion of space time from singularity but concepts of 'before' kind of fall apart because without time there is no before.

Keep in mind that the exact same problem exists for theists. You simply take a step back and say that God created the universe and that God has no 'before'. You can argue that God is somehow 'outside time' but then you've accepted that things can exist 'outside time' and then the big bang could have been caused by anything in that state, not merely God.

We do know, from scientific research, what happened from billionths of a second after the big bang through to today. This explains the formation of elements, planets and potentially life.

 

[chrisd53]

This is my question: Given the conservation of matter; where did the matter come from in the beginning? If you dont believe there was a beginning, please explain.

 

[KerrMetric]

This is my question: Given the conservation of matter; where did the matter come from in the beginning? If you dont believe there was a beginning, please explain.

There is no such conservation law. Please before attempting to impress go and learn the science.

 

[NamesAreHardToPick]

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct?

Science is the study of the natural world, it doesn't take faith.

So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from?

As an agnostic I can honestly tell you ... I have no idea. But I'm not about to commit an argument from personal incredulity because I don't understand how things could possible *bing* exist.

Where is the logical explanation for that?

The irony is that it's not logical to assume that since we don't have a natural explanation yet, a supernatural one is required.

 

[Loudmouth]

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

That generalisation is usually levelled at fundamentalists within christianity, such as YEC's. I have met many open minded christians and have read books by open minded christians, such as C. S. Lewis. I don't think that religions makes someone close minded, but there are religious people (and non-religious) that are close minded.

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct?

We all realize the success of the scientific methodology over the last 250 years and we all expect this success to continue. We also recognize that theology has almost never been successful in describing nature, the Dark Ages and Galileo's trial being a good examples.

So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter.

First of all, it is the law of conversation of matter and energy. Don't forget about that whole E=mc^2 thing. Matter and energy are the same thing in different forms.

Secondly, zero point energy falsifies the law.

Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from?

From the Big Bang. Before this point the laws observable through science break down.

How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

The condensation of energy found in the singularity at the beginning of the Universe.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste Chrisd,

thank you for the post.

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

both of you are doing the same thing.... those atheists you reference are at fault for thinking that all Christians think the same things or hold the same views, whilst you are doing the same thinking that all atheists hold the same views towards Christians.

so, as with all generalizations, there is some accuracy in it but so little as to be worthless in any sort of meaningful discussion, in my view.

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct?

science is not based upon belief, per se. it is based on, like many things, acceptance of an idea.. an intellecutal assent to the propositions laied out in things such as the Scientific Method and so forth.

So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter.

as already stated, there is no such law in physics.

Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from?

P-Brane collisions, perhaps.

How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

perhaps, you are conflating some ideas here... are you thinking of the Einstein fomula of E=MC^2 and asking your question from that point of view?

metta,

~v

 

[Hydra009]

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

Not a very accurate assessment for all Christians, some yes. Christians, like everyone else, run the gamut in personality types and critical thinking skills.

That said, I think most atheists would agree that Christian beliefs do not facilitate critical thinking very easily, being raised to believe that a series of beliefs are absolute truth, to be believed or else, and to not be questioned or else. Not exactly an environment which fosters or highly values critical thought.

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct? So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

This is not a question simply for atheists - that would imply that only atheists accept the Big Bang theory, which obviously isn't the case. In fact, it was proposed by Jesuit priest Georges Lemaître.

Second, it's important to realize that conservation of mass/energy does not hold fast and true in all cases. Quantum fluctuation is a good example of that. And close to the Big Bang, our models of how the universe works break down in much the same way as Newton's law of gravity, which works so well calculating falling bodies on Earth, breaks down at truly massive distances and enormous masses.

Third, the Big Bang, correct me if I'm wrong, was not the creation of matter, but the expansion of matter from a singularity. In this case, matter was always in existence - there was no time without matter.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

This is my question: Given the conservation of matter; where did the matter come from in the beginning? If you dont believe there was a beginning, please explain.

There is no such thing as "conservation of matter", if there was the sun would not work.

Sorry, please educate yourself more in this matter, you are making yourself, and by your example, all of Christianity look stupid.

 

[chrisd53]

ok...i really shouldnt have said that...i didnt pay attention in my last section of physics...so I completely forgot about that...and now I feel stupid...

anyways...it still leaves the question open...where did everything come from in the beginning...you can say energy...but where did that come from? It leads to this endless cycle of questions...all resulting in...where did that come from? Do some believe that everything just is? I am really curious...I am not trying to trap anyone...obviously I do not know nearly enough about science to do so.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

ok...i really shouldnt have said that...i didnt pay attention in my last section of physics...so I completely forgot about that...and now I feel stupid...

anyways...it still leaves the question open...where did everything come from in the beginning...you can say energy...but where did that come from? It leads to this endless cycle of questions...all resulting in...where did that come from? Do some believe that everything just is? I am really curious...I am not trying to trap anyone...obviously I do not know nearly enough about science to do so.

Well, that is simple. We do not know yet. It may be impossible for us to know scientifically what was "before" the big bang. M theory might be right, it might not.

You can't just put God there, we have no idea if our universe was the first to be created. Let's say M theory was shown to be correct tomorrow, and there was a brane collision before our universe started. Would you then give up on God?

It is not a good idea to place God somewhere just because we are ignorant about that place. This is called "God of the gaps" thinking and it has embarrassed Christianity more than once.

 

[Loudmouth]

anyways...it still leaves the question open...where did everything come from in the beginning...you can say energy...but where did that come from? It leads to this endless cycle of questions...all resulting in...where did that come from? Do some believe that everything just is? I am really curious...I am not trying to trap anyone...obviously I do not know nearly enough about science to do so.

Some people claim that God Did It. The problem is that this stops the cycle of asking questions. Religion stops research. A good example is "Where does lightning come from". Two thousand years ago no one knew, so they said "Thor Did It". It didn't work then, and I see no reason that it should work now. Science has discovered what makes lightning, and I think it is the best method for discovering where our Universe came from as well. At least it's better than just giving up.

 

[chrisd53]

Some people claim that God Did It. The problem is that this stops the cycle of asking questions. Religion stops research. A good example is "Where does lightning come from". Two thousand years ago no one knew, so they said "Thor Did It". It didn't work then, and I see no reason that it should work now. Science has discovered what makes lightning, and I think it is the best method for discovering where our Universe came from as well. At least it's better than just giving up.

I like that point.

However, dont think that every Christian says God did it just because it stops the cycle. There are a few out there who really have true faith and while you might consider it blind, it is very real and personal for them (not saying you do of course).

 

[OdwinOddball]

ok...i really shouldnt have said that...i didnt pay attention in my last section of physics...so I completely forgot about that...and now I feel stupid...

anyways...it still leaves the question open...where did everything come from in the beginning...you can say energy...but where did that come from? It leads to this endless cycle of questions...all resulting in...where did that come from? Do some believe that everything just is? I am really curious...I am not trying to trap anyone...obviously I do not know nearly enough about science to do so.

Some things you may want to investigate to facciltate your questioning. Try googling them, and if you have cable, check out the science channel for some good programmin gon many such topics.


Singularity

Cosmic Background Radiation

String Theory

Brane Theory or M-Theory

Quantum Mechanics

Quantum Flucuation

Space/Time as a dimension

any and all topics of Astonomy/Astrophysics, Cosmology, Quantum Mechanics, Theoretical Physics, and calculus if you actually want to understand the math behind it all :o

 

[Aron-Ra]

I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

My opinion of Christians is no different than my opinion of any other religious adherent. They believe what they do without reason, and are unreasonable in that regard.

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct? So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

The logical explanation is that we can't be certain what the first cause was. But that's no reason to make up any magic invible ghosts casting incantation spells. We know for certain that evolution happens now, and we can also see pretty clearly that its been happening for a heckuva long time. And we know that at one point there was only very simiple microbial life on this world, and that prior to that, there was no life at all. How would you explain that? We also know that the universe is expanding, meaning of course that at one point, everything was much closer together. And if you extrapolate backward about billion years or so, everything was in one place. How would you explain that? Is magic words spoken by imaginary beings really the best you've got?

 

[Silvertongue]

ok...i really shouldnt have said that...i didnt pay attention in my last section of physics...so I completely forgot about that...and now I feel stupid...

anyways...it still leaves the question open...where did everything come from in the beginning...you can say energy...but where did that come from? It leads to this endless cycle of questions...all resulting in...where did that come from? Do some believe that everything just is? I am really curious...I am not trying to trap anyone...obviously I do not know nearly enough about science to do so.

Hi Cris! First of all let me say, don't beat yourself up too badly. Just seeing you admit that you made a mistake already makes me respect you far more than some other posters I could mention. This board is here for people such as you and I to learn from. There is no shame in misspeaking, or making a mistake. Those are what we all learn from.

For me, personally, my answer to your question of "where did everything come from," and "how did everything begin" is simply "I don't know." Certainly there are people out there smarter than I'll ever be that are working on the issue, and I find it fascinating to read about, but honestly it doens't make that big a difference in my day-to-day affairs. It's certainly not so pressing a question that I feel the need to subscribe to some manner of religion to provide the answers.

Could all this have been the result of a deity, or deities? Sure, I'm not going to sit here and say that's an impossibility--but then again anything is possible. However, I do very much hold myself to the scientific principle of methodological naturalism, and as such I believe that most likely there is some sort of naturalistic explanation for everything. Also, as others have rightly pointed out, the failure to produce an answer at this point does not necessarily equate to there being a deity, it simply means we don't know.

Concerning the "endless cycle of questions" you mentioned, God is not immune from that either, as I'm sure you're most likely familiar with the old question of "well what created God then." I know the most popular answers are things like, "Well, God exists outside of time," and so on and so forth, but that strikes me as more "special pleading" than convincing.