Question about legalism

[JustAsIam77]

Andy S. Wright wrote:

" It is a tragedy that 2,000 years of biblical exegesis hasn't eradicated legalism from the church once and for all".

(there was a glitch in the matrix, I couldn't use the quote feature).

Amen brother.

 

[TrutherAU]

A confusing and subjective thread if you ask me.
Question what do you consider to be legalism; Discipline, authority of Pastor or church council authority of deacons, authority of bible college staff e.g Principles tutors etc. authority of Baptist Union.

Youve opened up a real can of worms no one is going to be objective in your description of this!.Perhaps your just an anarchist whom doesnt like any authority perhaps this is not the religion for you!.

 

[JustAsIam77]

A confusing and subjective thread if you ask me.
Question what do you consider to be legalism; Discipline, authority of Pastor or church council authority of deacons, authority of bible college staff e.g Principles tutors etc. authority of Baptist Union.

Youve opened up a real can of worms no one is going to be objective in your description of this!.Perhaps your just an anarchist whom doesnt like any authority perhaps this is not the religion for you!.

Paul says concerning some who would base salvation on their own merits, "going about to establish their own rightiousness, they did not submit themselves to the rightiousness of God". He makes it plain that "the rightiousness of God", is given to us through faith, and that we enter heaven pleading only the merits of Christ.



And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Corintians 12:9

 

[TrutherAU]

And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Corintians 12:9

Thats all fine and dandy in theory however human frailty, being what it is their isnt a baptist pastor or authority figure out there whom wouldnt revel in their own self rightcious authority we all have pride, baptist authorities in the land Downunder are some of the worst pride filled self rightcious offenders in my experience.
The problem is the abuse of authority not legalism per se, as Lord acton said " Power tends to corrupt Absolutely" simple as that!.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Thats all fine and dandy in theory however human frailty, being what it is their isnt a baptist pastor or authority figure out there whom wouldnt revel in their own self rightcious authority we all have pride, baptist authorities in the land Downunder are some of the worst pride filled self rightcious offenders in my experience.
The problem is the abuse of authority not legalism per se, as Lord acton said " Power tends to corrupt Absolutely" simple as that!.

Go back to the beginning of this thread. Pay attention to the "pride" factor I posted. It's not about us, but all about Him, (Christ).

We are prideful, it's in our nature. Legalism is a continuation of that pride.

God bless

 

[coastie]

Thats all fine and dandy in theory however human frailty, being what it is their isnt a baptist pastor or authority figure out there whom wouldnt revel in their own self rightcious authority we all have pride, baptist authorities in the land Downunder are some of the worst pride filled self rightcious offenders in my experience.
The problem is the abuse of authority not legalism per se, as Lord acton said " Power tends to corrupt Absolutely" simple as that!.

Ah baptists... they're all the same. Self-righteous, pious wind-bags... the whole lot of 'em.

It would be pretty sad if the small amount of power given to pastors corrupted them. I think that that quote is referring to people in absolute power roles. You may want to check the context.

 

[TrutherAU]

Go back to the beginning of this thread. Pay attention to the "pride" factor I posted. It's not about us, but all about Him, (Christ).

We are prideful, it's in our nature. Legalism is a continuation of that pride.

I essentially dont disagree with what you are saying however you seem to have forgotten human nature is sinful whether legalistic or not!.
The world will never be perfect it never can be.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I essentially dont disagree with what you are saying however you seem to have forgotten human nature is sinful whether legalistic or not!.
The world will never be perfect it never can be.

OK, start from scratch and read Romans, then for desert Galations.

There's good news for you in the Word of God.

Blessings

 

[TrutherAU]

OK, start from scratch and read Romans, then for desert Galations.

There's good news for you in the Word of God.

Blessings

What part of humanity and the world being an imperfect creation dont you understand?.I suppose you see yourself without blemish ironic considering we are discussing pride do you read your own diatribe?.

 

[mlqurgw]

What part of humanity and the world being an imperfect creation dont you understand?.I suppose you see yourself without blemish ironic considering we are discussing pride do you read your own diatribe?.

All believers are without blemish in Christ. While we live in this body of death the old nature often seems to get stronger but thanks be unto God that we have a new nature that cannot sin, 1John 3:9, and sin no longer rules us. Rom. 6:14 Thank God my righteousness is all of Christ my Jehovah tsidkenu, the Lord my Righteousness, Jer. 33:16. In Him is no sin, 1John 3:5, and that isn't talking about His sinlessness it is talking about ours in Him. While I live in this world my sin, which is in everything I do, grieves me and troubles me to the point of almost despair of being saved. But God is faithful to all who truly trust Him and will not go back on His Word.

 

[JustAsIam77]

What part of humanity and the world being an imperfect creation dont you understand?.I suppose you see yourself without blemish ironic considering we are discussing pride do you read your own diatribe?.

I'm not following your thoughts? We are on differing planes of understanding legalism. FYI, I think of myself as a wretch above all wretches and completely unworthy of Christs grace in every way.

Apparently, you did not read Romans & Galations..or else not capable of understanding Pauls revelation to us about the magnificence of grace, and thereby refuting the pride the Pharisees wallowed in.

 

[LiveInSpirit]

All believers are without blemish in Christ. While we live in this body of death the old nature often seems to get stronger but thanks be unto God that we have a new nature that cannot sin, 1John 3:9Click to view 1John 3:9 (NASB), and sin no longer rules us. Rom. 6:14Click to view Rom. 6:14 (NASB) Thank God my righteousness is all of Christ my Jehovah tsidkenu, the Lord my Righteousness, Jer. 33:16Click to view Jer. 33:16 (NASB). In Him is no sin, 1John 3:5Click to view 1John 3:5 (NASB), and that isn't talking about His sinlessness it is talking about ours in Him. While I live in this world my sin, which is in everything I do, grieves me and troubles me to the point of almost despair of being saved. But God is faithful to all who truly trust Him and will not go back on His Word.

This post is my everyday walk.

 

[TrutherAU]

All believers are without blemish in Christ. While we live in this body of death the old nature often seems to get stronger but thanks be unto God that we have a new nature that cannot sin, 1John 3:9Click to view 1John 3:9 (NASB), and sin no longer rules us. Rom. 6:14Click to view Rom. 6:14 (NASB) Thank God my righteousness is all of Christ my Jehovah tsidkenu, the Lord my Righteousness, Jer. 33:16Click to view Jer. 33:16 (NASB). In Him is no sin, 1John 3:5Click to view 1John 3:5 (NASB), and that isn't talking about His sinlessness it is talking about ours in Him. While I live in this world my sin, which is in everything I do, grieves me and troubles me to the point of almost despair of being saved. But God is faithful to all who truly trust Him and will not go back on His Word.

​

So thats it is it! Simple as that you have gotten out of the responsiblities of faith with God simply because of your position of grace.I think its a view of salvation that is folly its actully known as Antinomianism by Paul.
Its an easy way out for those that like to use excuses for continuing bad behaviour (sin) which can be more or less the same level as any non christians bad deeds and behaviours.
For start I am not calvinist so i dont believe in this kind of predetermined salvation its simply what i regard as an EXCUSE for not changing ones sinful ways whether personality flaws or straight out sinful nature. Sorry mate i dont buy it.
The same kind of excuses are used by tele evangelists when they are caught out defrauding their flock or cheating on their wives i suppose you remeber some of those evangelical scandals in your part of the world in the 1980s with Swaggert and Jimmy& Tammy Baker.
I certainly do i keep tabs on hypocritical self rightciousness. Of cause here downunder we have plenty of equally bad holy holier than thou ill sin anyway cases. They are the main reason people walk away from Christian faith so the consequences of such holy hypocrisy is far reaching and its damage to ministries shouldnt be underestimated.

 

[desmalia]

Its an easy way out for those that like to use excuses for continuing bad behaviour (sin) which can be more or less the same level as any non christians bad deeds and behaviours.
For start I am not calvinist so i dont believe in this kind of predetermined salvation its simply what i regard as an EXCUSE for not changing ones sinful ways whether personality flaws or straight out sinful nature. Sorry mate i dont buy it.

If you think that is Calvinism then I'm afraid you've been grossly misinformed.

I don't know if this would matter to you at all or not, but when I came to understand the doctrines of grace (not knowing it was called Calvinism yet thankfully, as I'd always been taught "Calvinism" is bad and wrong and unbiblical), it dramatically increased my desire and drive to be obedient and put childish things behind me. And it continues to do so, daily. It has been nothing but a blessing as I come to know and love the nature of our sovereign God more. Less of me, more of Him. The "P" in TULIP stands for Perseverance of the Saints. It completely contradicts the idea that one can be a believer, but not live a transformed life.

 

[JustAsIam77]

​

So thats it is it! Simple as that you have gotten out of the responsiblities of faith with God simply because of your position of grace.I think its a view of salvation that is folly its actully known as Antinomianism by Paul.
Its an easy way out for those that like to use excuses for continuing bad behaviour (sin) which can be more or less the same level as any non christians bad deeds and behaviours.
[/quote]

Non Christians are not saved. ALL are sinners.

 

[GarrettC]

I am interested in opinions as to why legalism is still strongly defended by many of our Christian brothers, given it is refuted in Holy scripture?

My personal opinion is personal pride in self, the innate desire of man to be given credit, even if it's a small degree of credit, for our own salvation.

For some reason, it tends to be extremely visible in many deacons and associate pastors, at least in my experience. I see it far too often in the Baptist churches. Those that are not legalistic are too often drowned out by those that are.

 

[GarrettC]

So thats it is it! Simple as that you have gotten out of the responsiblities of faith with God simply because of your position of grace.I think its a view of salvation that is folly its actully known as Antinomianism by Paul.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God; not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Just because someone believes that God exercises sovereign grace to those who call upon his name does not mean that they have bypassed the responsibilities of faith. Grace, as made clear by the verse I quoted above, is obtained through faith. In other words, without faith, there is no grace. They go hand in hand. And since faith and works also go hand in hand, grace and works are impossible to separate as well.

You judge someone by their fruit, not by their words. If they truly have God's grace, then they will exercise faith, and do good works because of the faith and grace that they have.

(I probably made that kind of difficult to grasp, but... I think you get the basic idea.)

 

[TimRout]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God; not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Just because someone believes that God exercises sovereign grace to those who call upon his name does not mean that they have bypassed the responsibilities of faith. Grace, as made clear by the verse I quoted above, is obtained through faith. In other words, without faith, there is no grace. They go hand in hand. And since faith and works also go hand in hand, grace and works are impossible to separate as well.

You judge someone by their fruit, not by their words. If they truly have God's grace, then they will exercise faith, and do good works because of the faith and grace that they have.

(I probably made that kind of difficult to grasp, but... I think you get the basic idea.)

Just to see if I'm grasping your intent....

Without faith, no one can receive God's grace. And all who receive God's grace by faith will produce righteous works. This is not to suggest that we work for our salvation, but that every truly saved person will bear righteous fruit.

Is that about right?

 

[JustAsIam77]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God; not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Just because someone believes that God exercises sovereign grace to those who call upon his name does not mean that they have bypassed the responsibilities of faith. Grace, as made clear by the verse I quoted above, is obtained through faith. In other words, without faith, there is no grace. They go hand in hand. And since faith and works also go hand in hand, grace and works are impossible to separate as well.

You judge someone by their fruit, not by their words. If they truly have God's grace, then they will exercise faith, and do good works because of the faith and grace that they have.

(I probably made that kind of difficult to grasp, but... I think you get the basic idea.)

Thank you for your contribution.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Just to see if I'm grasping your intent....

Without faith, no one can receive God's grace. And all who receive God's grace by faith will produce righteous works. This is not to suggest that we work for our salvation, but that every truly saved person will bear righteous fruit.

Is that about right?

I'll let Garrett speak for himself, but I like his post. I know where you're coming from brother, we tend to be a bit sensitive about "working" or "earning" our own salvation.