Public School situation in America

[Yusuf Evans]

I agree. However, wasn't it worse in the past?

Maybe, but it's bad because we've been at WAR with this country for over 3 years now. All these protests by young people over Iraq and they can't even find the freakin' country on a map. To think, they say the President is dumb.

 

[morningstar2651]

It's possibly because said Wiccan, Pagan, Hindu, Islamic, Buddhist, ect. school would be run out of town before said school could even open the doors.

We have a small Pagan Homeschooling program here in the town I live in and it's working nicely for those kids who want to be homeschooled.

Asylum

Not neccessarily.

 

[Robinsegg]

I lose a great deal of respect for parents who homeschool their children. Unless you are a college graduate with a teaching degree and/or certification, what makes you so qualified to be a teacher?
You are basically saying (inadvertently or not) that teaching takes no real skill and that anyone can do it, which is entirely false.

Well, I haven't graduated yet, but I do have some college behind me. When I do graduate, it will be with a degree in education and a teacher's certificate.

However, God has gifted me in the area of teaching. I have been able to help high school students understand concepts in both math and science (my two most difficult subjects) when their teachers had them utterly confused. One of these students had a learning disability and no one had taught him how to study or succeed in school (though he was in Jr. High, not HS). I began to teach him how to find answers for his homework in the textbook, etc. I've taught many children in church settings. I do have experience, but more than that, God has given me the ability to teach children.

Now, granted, I don't have the classroom skills (ie discipline) needed to teach in a ps classroom and that sort of thing. But to teach my children how to read, write, add, subtract, history and science, especially in the early grades, will not be difficult for me. My daughter will turn 6 next month. She's been working nearly all year at a 1st grade level.

One other thing: We, as parents, are responsible for our children's educations. Whether we hire someone else (a school) to do it or do it ourselves, we are accountable before God for what our children are taught and for how well they are taught. Deut 6:7-16 (KJV)

You can't tell me it never works. If that were so, why is it that when standardized tests are taken homeschoolers rank at above 50%, while public schools rank at 50%? You'd expect the average to be 50%, but if homeschooling is so inferior, why do those who do it not fall below that average?

Rachel

 

[SimplyMe]

Maybe, but it's bad because we've been at WAR with this country for over 3 years now. All these protests by young people over Iraq and they can't even find the freakin' country on a map. To think, they say the President is dumb.

Actually, those that protest will claim it's the Bush Supporters that typically are less knowledgeable about Mideast geography and politics. Perhaps you could find stats to back up your assertion?

 

[Robinsegg]

That depends what you mean by indoctrinate. If acceptance of western democratic principles including the separation of church and state and respect for diversity is indoctrination, then I guess the answer is yes.

While I have no problem with respecting diversity, there are certain issues that could be handled better than the public schools do it. Diversity among races, religions, ethnicities and the like are to be respected. However, some are now including "alternative lifestyles" in their "diversity training", saying that nothing is better or lesser than another. At young ages, I would take issue with that. Yes, my children will be educated about such things, but I think it's the parent's job to teach about lifestyle choices from my perspective, and want the ability to do so before it's brought up outside.

Rachel

 

[Yusuf Evans]

Actually, those that protest will claim it's the Bush Supporters that typically are less knowledgeable about Mideast geography and politics. Perhaps you could find stats to back up your assertion?

Being that President Bush's approval rating is below 30%, I seriously doubt it's limited to his crowd.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/05/02/geog.test/

 

[Bananafish]

Well, I haven't graduated yet, but I do have some college behind me. When I do graduate, it will be with a degree in education and a teacher's certificate.

So you're not qualified to be a teacher. People like me have gone through four years (or more) of college, taken the teacher qualification tests, and gotten certified. When your child goes to school, will you be okay with her being taught by someone who hasn't even graduated from college? (This would never happen, because of public school standards, but hypothetically...)

You can't tell me it never works. If that were so, why is it that when standardized tests are taken homeschoolers rank at above 50%, while public schools rank at 50%? You'd expect the average to be 50%, but if homeschooling is so inferior, why do those who do it not fall below that average?

Rachel

Do you have any sources for these numbers?

In my opinion as an educated person who is also an educator, homeschooling is detrimental to children. It stunts their social and academic growth.

 

[DyingAsylum]

In my opinion as an educated person who is also an educator, homeschooling is detrimental to children. It stunts their social and academic growth.

I totally agree with you. IMO it seems to shelter kids by not exposing them to the different beliefs, lifestyles and such that are "common" in a public school setting.

As far as academics it can be overwhelming to go from such a controled and structured environment into the chaos that is college life.

But that's just me. I went to public school and, at least in my mind anyway, am no worse for it.

Asylum

 

[Melethiel]

In my opinion as an educated person who is also an educator, homeschooling is detrimental to children. It stunts their social and academic growth.

Then how come myself, my brothers, and most of the homeschoolers I know have skipped several grades? If it's so academically detrimental, I should have had a problem getting into university with a full scholarship. My social life is also just fine, thank you very much.

 

[Robinsegg]

I have to say, just in my own experience, I've met a lot of homeschooled people, and I have to say, while a couple of them seem "smarter" than public schooled kids, socially speaking, they are waaaay behind. Overall, I'd have to say the knowledge base is fairly even between homeschooled vs. public schooled kids, but common-sense knowledge and social knowledge on the homeschooled kids is much lower.

Okay, I'm not sure what you mean by "social knowledge". My children are with other children regularly (different groups at church and homeschooling group all meet once per week, so they get about 4 different groups of kids each week). Also, any time we go to McDonalds or the park, my children play with others, and we have a standing playdate once per week. My 6yo daughter goes up to other kids and plays well, even when things don't go her way (though she prefers to be in control). She's also able to speak to adults, but won't speak with those she doesn't know unless she's with an adult she does know. What other "social knowledge" are you talking about?

In situtions like hers, homeschooling is probably best... But still, in spite of her unbelievable knowledge, that girl is (by her mother's admission) aching for socialization that homeschooling doesn't give her, and her real-life/common sense/practical knowledge is not so good.

This tells me that her mother isn't getting your niece to groups of kids as much as she could be. As I stated, we meet with different groups of kids 4-5 times per week. As far as common sense, that is not something the schools should be expected to teach, anyway. That's the parent's job. Now, I'll admit I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but my kids are learning about choosing the consequence with an action, problem-solving, and other things like it. The parent just has to be sure she isn't doing and solving everything for her child (personal experience speaking here).

The world isn't just about book smarts, and there's education you just can't get in homeschool.

Agreed about booksmarts. However, I didn't start getting hands-on knowledge of anything until after I graduated from high school (and went to ps). I learned to despise my peers (and still have issues with people my own age) and lots of trivial (not practical) knowledge in public school. I was in the honors program and in "college track" or "high track" studies, but I never learned to apply my knowledge in ps.

Signed,
Jerusha, an assistant preschool teacher, a college student getting her degree in education, a 13 year 4-H member, a 6 year 4-H leader, and daughter of a teacher, district RIF Coordiantor, Hands-On-Nature Organizer, 4-H leader of 25+ years, NH's Volunteer of the year for 2000, and NH's Volunteer of the Decade (if you want to celebrate my mother's day, the Govenor of NH made June 16th [my mother's name] day)
Meaning, this opinion is brought to you by a person who knows kids and education, and has extensive background in both.

I understand that you have great qualifications for this discussion, and appreciate them. I don't agree with all your conclusions, and don't understand some of your concerns (as expressed above). I'd love to see you elucidate on them.

Rachel

 

[LittleNipper]

Emphasis on a part of, not the foundation for.



A valid point. It is a good skill. Just not the only one. My point is that in the good ole days, it was almost the only pedagogical tool that was used.

Do you know Latin?/quote]

Yes, and I can samba too!



No, and thus far the need has never existed.

I can however translate from Latin to English to German to symbolic mathmetical logic. And with my left hand too!



Yes. And the chess team too. And I can quote Shakespeare and Ovid and Shelly and Homer (no, not the Doh! Homer, the other one) and Poe and I also have the entire text of Fahrenheit 451 memorized.



I can, can you?



Go spit on the grave of Frank Lloyd Wright. It's all his fault. Really.

The foundation for education is the spiritual ideal.... Nothing more, nothing less.....

 

[Robinsegg]

So you're not qualified to be a teacher. People like me have gone through four years (or more) of college, taken the teacher qualification tests, and gotten certified. When your child goes to school, will you be okay with her being taught by someone who hasn't even graduated from college? (This would never happen, because of public school standards, but hypothetically...)

Well, when I hire someone for a job, I generally expect them to know what they're doing. If, however, I hire someone who's been in ballet for 12 years to give my daughter the basics, I don't think I'm going to expect her (or him) to have a degree in ballet or in teaching. In a public school, a teacher needs certain skills that I won't need in teaching my own children. For instance, I don't need to know classroom management, because I only have two students. I don't need to learn classroom discipline, because I have discipline already set in place. Yes, the college training is useful for someone in a classroom. But I've taught my children a lot. For my daughter, this includes how to read, write and do math, as well as history and science.

Do you have any sources for these numbers?

Yeah, here's a source for stats on this:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

In my opinion as an educated person who is also an educator, homeschooling is detrimental to children. It stunts their social and academic growth.

What do you look for in social growth? This will help me understand your concerns better. You see, my daughter plays well with other kids, can work on something with them, and can be pleasant and polite to adults. I don't see the problem. However, I'd be the first to admit that homeschooling is not for everyone.

Rachel

 

[chaoschristian]

The foundation for education is the spiritual ideal.... Nothing more, nothing less.....

What are you talking about now?

What is the spiritual ideal?

 

[Robinsegg]

So you're not qualified to be a teacher. People like me have gone through four years (or more) of college, taken the teacher qualification tests, and gotten certified. When your child goes to school, will you be okay with her being taught by someone who hasn't even graduated from college? (This would never happen, because of public school standards, but hypothetically...)

One other thing: would you never allow one student (extremely proficient and older) to help another? Would you allow an 8th grader to help a Kindergartener with reading or counting? After all, that older student isn't a quallified teacher. Oh, and by the way, neither are most of the parents who help their children with their homework. But, given the textbook and the directions, most parents can muddle through helping their children. Or, they'll find an older student to "tutor" their child. Either way, you still have and "unquallified teacher" teaching the students.

Rachel

 

[Melethiel]

There's one thing I don't get about this whole thing about "qualifications." 200 years ago someone with a high school diploma could teach grade school. Either myself or my mother have taught most of my siblings how to read, write, do basic figures, etc. I don't have any degree, but I know how to read and can pass that knowledge along. Most parents can do the same. While formal education in teaching is necessary for those in public schools to know classroom management and the like, these things wouldn't be necessary in a homeschool setting.

Degrees are overrated. It's the knowledge that counts. I know a guy who has several degrees and doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Robert Shaw, on the other hand, leads several world-famous choirs and doesn't have any degrees in music.

 

[Bananafish]

Then how come myself, my brothers, and most of the homeschoolers I know have skipped several grades? If it's so academically detrimental, I should have had a problem getting into university with a full scholarship. My social life is also just fine, thank you very much.

You and your brothers and some people you know don't exactly make very good sample.

 

[Bananafish]

One other thing: would you never allow one student (extremely proficient and older) to help another? Would you allow an 8th grader to help a Kindergartener with reading or counting? After all, that older student isn't a quallified teacher. Oh, and by the way, neither are most of the parents who help their children with their homework. But, given the textbook and the directions, most parents can muddle through helping their children. Or, they'll find an older student to "tutor" their child. Either way, you still have and "unquallified teacher" teaching the students.

Rachel

Of course I allow students to help each other. It benefits both parties; the one teaching is actually learning, and the one getting help is getting a different perspective on the issue. But as far as being a full-time teacher, no, I would not give that position to an eighth grader and I would rather not have homeschool parents "muddle" through the material with their kids.

The difference between tutors and teachers is so vast that I can't believe you even compared the two. Tutors spend a couple of hours a week with a student; teachers spend 35+ hours with students.

Your comparisons don't really work.

 

[Bananafish]

Well, when I hire someone for a job, I generally expect them to know what they're doing. If, however, I hire someone who's been in ballet for 12 years to give my daughter the basics, I don't think I'm going to expect her (or him) to have a degree in ballet or in teaching.

Well, teaching ballet and teaching someone physics are a little bit different.

Yes, the college training is useful for someone in a classroom. But I've taught my children a lot. For my daughter, this includes how to read, write and do math, as well as history and science.

I'm not denying that parents can be great mentors and teachers. My mom read to me all the time and taught me a lot.

Yeah, here's a source for stats on this:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

I'll take a look at this later...my stomach is hungry for a late breakfast.

What do you look for in social growth? This will help me understand your concerns better. You see, my daughter plays well with other kids, can work on something with them, and can be pleasant and polite to adults. I don't see the problem. However, I'd be the first to admit that homeschooling is not for everyone.

Rachel

There is diversity at school that you absolutely CANNOT get when you're homeschool your own children. Sure, they have playdates and they see other children, but are they working in groups to solve problems on a daily basis? Are they having conflicts with someone they don't like and resolving them?

Taking my teacher hat off, I personally have a problem with parents indocrinating their children into their religion and never giving them a chance to explore other perspectives.

 

[Robinsegg]

Of course I allow students to help each other. It benefits both parties; the one teaching is actually learning, and the one getting help is getting a different perspective on the issue. But as far as being a full-time teacher, no, I would not give that position to an eighth grader and I would rather not have homeschool parents "muddle" through the material with their kids.

I wasn't speaking of hs parents, but the parents of children who didn't understand or didn't remember what the teacher was "teaching" them.

There are great teachers (and I'm sure you're one of them from your comments here), but there are also some who should never be teachers. A college degree doesn't make someone cut out to be a teacher. It helps, but doesn't give them the passion for children, the joy of watching children learn, or prevent them from becoming burnt out. I had some great teachers in ps, and I had some lousy ones. I had a teacher in 6th grade who gave us work he never graded (busywork, one of the banes of my existence) and left the room. How is that good teaching? No, I'm not saying he represents all teachers (see above), but there's at least one of these in every area, and some kids are relegated to their classrooms.

I have a friend whose daughter just left 3rd grade. The teacher wouldn't send home tests or give the parents any idea how their children were doing until the report card, even when it was requested. She would show a movie in class and send the children home with 3 hours of homework (the daughter generally spent all her time after school doing homework until time for bed because of all that was assigned). My friend tried to meet with her with no results, and considered meeting with the teacher and principle, but feared how her daughter would be treated if it was taken higher. This teacher had a degree, but . . . I wouldn't want to be paying her to teach my child.

The difference between tutors and teachers is so vast that I can't believe you even compared the two. Tutors spend a couple of hours a week with a student; teachers spend 35+ hours with students.

Your comparisons don't really work.

What's the difference how much time is spent? The fact of the matter is that "unquallified teachers" are able to teach. They can impart knowledge to others.

I'll agree that the college classes on "how to teach" the different subjects can be helpful. Student teaching is helpful experience for anyone wanting to spend time in a classroom. But I don't see why I need "classroom experience" to teach 2 children. How about this: I take all the "how to teach" classes and get a teacher's certificate to teach only 2 children?

Rachel

 

[Robinsegg]

Taking my teacher hat off, I personally have a problem with parents indocrinating their children into their religion and never giving them a chance to explore other perspectives.

Okay, I think I see your concern here, and yes, there are families who will do that. However, while I want to put my own spin on things as they're brought to my young children, I do and will bring to them other perspecitves and information on other religions. I grew up learning much (in Jr. High and High School) about other religions, as I wanted to learn how other people think. I talk to people who believe differently than I without arguement, but with an exchange of ideas. I usually listen first, as that helps others open up and doesn't sound like I'm trying to change their minds.
Rachel