Prophecy and History

[iamlamad]

1/3 of the earth sometimes means, in biblical prophecy, 1/3 of the territory the prophecy is focusing on. It may or may not be the whole world. It may just be the very large territory the Beast will control, along with the very large territory the Asian kings, who invade Israel, will control.

Regardless, this will be a large example of "God's Wrath" against the world, though obviously this would exclude a minority of Christians who are living out their faith. Let's not confuse their going through the period of time with being the objects of "God's Wrath?" This is a common language problem Pretribbers have, and they always get caught because in the end it is discovered that righteous people always do go through these periods of great tribulation, even though they are not the targets of God's Wrath.

Pre-Wrath adherents at least have it right that believers are here "to the end." So if there is any "Wrath" on earth to be avoided, it has to be only the very last outpouring of Wrath. However, I would argue that if Christians are here during the time of the Beast, and even during times when Wrath is poured out on the wicked, then there is nothing preventing believers from being here to the bitter end. Just like Jesus was here in the time when Israel was at their worst...

In this case I will quote the very words: By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone...

It is difficult to read this any other way. "the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." This SEEMS to me to be world wide. But one could argue the point.

Up to now, the pretrib doctrine had huge holes in it, the very holes found by the prewrathers. But now that I know the Week will not begin at the first seal, but rather at the 7th seal, and now that I know the rapture will come just before the Day of the LOrd at the 6th seal, I can prove pre-trib: 6 always comes before 7 in counting.

Randy, if you wish to hang around "to the end," I wish you the best of luck, but I am taking God's escape plan. Did you not read in Revelation 12 that there at the midpoint of the week there is only a remnant left of those that love Jesus? This is before the man of sin is Revealed so before any part of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. There is only a remnant because the pretrib rapture took out the church before the week will begin.

I think you need to study the 6th seal again. This is the START of the Day of the Lord (or the day of His wrath) and so the start of God's anger against sinners. Take careful note that the 6th seal is going to be opened before the 7th seal that begins the 70th week.

 

[RandyPNW]

In this case I will quote the very words: By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone...

It is difficult to read this any other way. "the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men." This SEEMS to me to be world wide. But one could argue the point.

I'm not dying on this hill, but I would at least hypothetically argue the point. When the Flood took place, the language used would seem to us, in the modern world, to be speaking of the entire globe. But in that day, the language would be purely local. For "all the earth under the heavens to be covered with water" would be seen from the spectator's point of view. And a spectator from a local perspective would not be able to see around the curve of the earth.

The focus of the Flood was the termination of the Civilization surrounding Noah and his family. All of mankind, from the perspective of Noah's point of view, died. If all of Civilization was living there, around the Black Sea, then regardless of how "global" the Flood was, all of mankind died, save Noah's family.

But saving all the animals in that local region likely served to show that the extinction of animals in that region was a representation of the fact God wanted to save Man on earth. In no sense was the universality of the Flood meant to indicate that animals *outside of this area* were to be engulfed as well. But this is an argument better suited for another place.

Up to now, the pretrib doctrine had huge holes in it, the very holes found by the prewrathers. But now that I know the Week will not begin at the first seal, but rather at the 7th seal, and now that I know the rapture will come just before the Day of the LOrd at the 6th seal, I can prove pre-trib: 6 always comes before 7 in counting.

My advice is that you not try to "put things together" in this way. I would argue that if the Scriptures mean something to be doctrine, then it will be stated as doctrine, or at least made clear explicitly. You don't have this here.

Randy, if you wish to hang around "to the end," I wish you the best of luck, but I am taking God's escape plan. Did you not read in Revelation 12 that there at the midpoint of the week there is only a remnant left of those that love Jesus?

There is no "Week" at all in Rev 12! What are you even talking about?

I wouldn't say I want to hang around until the end. I'll likely die physically before I reach the end of the age. The Lord's will be done. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

This is before the man of sin is Revealed so before any part of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. There is only a remnant because the pretrib rapture took out the church before the week will begin.

This sounds like a concocted story because nothing in the Scriptures actually says this!

I think you need to study the 6th seal again. This is the START of the Day of the Lord (or the day of His wrath) and so the start of God's anger against sinners. Take careful note that the 6th seal is going to be opened before the 7th seal that begins the 70th week.

I believe that the 6th Seal is the very end of the age. It is just a preview of it. Again, I don't think the opening of the Seals indicates a chronological order--just a dramatic order. All 7 Seals indicate something related to the coming of the Kingdom. The 6th seems to be the moment of recognition that that Day has arrived.

 

[RandyPNW]

You are confusing "great tribulation's." "The great tribulation" of "those days" that Jesus spoke of cannot begin until the Beast and False Prophet have arrived on the scene, and they will not be on the scene until after the abomination that will divide the future week. Sorry, Randy, but these things are FUTURE.

John wrote those two words together, "great tribulation" two times, but in neither one was he talking about the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. We know this by timing. It seems God has called the entire church age "tribulation" and when he added the tribulation of all those caught up to heaven, He chose to call it great: the combined tribulation of millions if not billions of saints.

What will CAUSE those days of GT Jesus spoke of? It will be when they enforce worshiping the imagine and taking the mark, under threat of losing one's head.

I'll tell you my way of interpreting things, which I believe was helped me by the Lord. I look at the *basis* for a particular Bible statement in the past, if indeed there is one. In the case of the "Great Tribulation" it is stated as if the reader should understand where it came from.

And we do know where it came from. We learn from Jesus that an era of Great Tribulation began for the Jewish People in 70 AD, and they have been homeless or miserable ever since. This lesson, advanced to the Church, now indicates for us that we also are like pilgrims in a hostile world wherever we find ourselves. Like Israel we live in ungodly nations and are treated as if we have no citizens' rights.

So the entire age is characterized, biblically, as a kind of "Great Tribulation." And it is from this wicked age that we will be delivered at the Coming of Christ.

 

[RandyPNW]

I disagree. Only once did John mention this crowd, too large to number, in chapter 7. But yes, I think the church is there in chapter 19, at the marriage and supper. Only once does John show the church coming back to earth, if we are a part of heaven's armies.

I do believe there will be another "rapture" for the 144,000, for when John saw them the second time, they were in heaven. John does not tell us, nor does any other writer except Jesus in John 6, but I believe the Old Testament saints will be caught up at the 7th bowl (on the last day) to come to the marriage. We know they too must have their resurrection day. I believe that terrible earthquake pinpoints that moment in time. When God raises those before the flood, it will cause a GREAT earthquake!

Again, you seem to run wild with theories, instead of basing your conclusions on explicit statements made in Scriptures. I mean, yes the Scriptures say the 144,000 is preserved on earth in ch. 6 and the Scriptures do say the same will be with Christ on Mt. Zion in ch. 14. But the Scriptures do not explicitly say what we are to conclude from this change in venues. Venturing a guess is perhaps okay. But to draw a firm conclusion is going beyond what the word actually says.

You're right that only in ch. 7 is a Great Multitude mentioned in the way that it is described. Why should it be repeated *in the exact same way again?* However, the Great Multitude is seen elsewhere in the Revelation, ch. 19.

So what I'm saying is that the Hope of the Church, realized at Christ's Coming, is depicted in a number of ways, indicating that we are just being given different angles to the same event. These are not many "Raptures" or many "Comings of Jesus."

 

[RandyPNW]

The number seven can certainly be used as a number after 6. I am convinced, when John numbered events, it was for their proper sequence. John used the two words, "before" and "after" 41 times in Revelation. I am convinced that John was extremely careful to write chronologically and God was the same in showing John the vision. However, John certainly used the idea of parentheses but had no marks to show them.
I believe, in general, that events in a given chapter will certainly happen AFTER the events of previous chapters and BEFORE events in later chapters, with the exceptions of parentheses and prophecy. Certainly the seals will come before the trumpets and the trumpets before the bowls. Someone once wrote that the 7th trumpet would be sounded at the 6th seal. Such a thing is impossible! The trumpets are written inside the book and the book cannot be opened until all seals are opened first.

You have to recognize that the order in which John saw these visions is different than the order of prophetic events mentioned in the Revelation. It is quite obvious that after the blowing of the 7th Trumpet in ch. 11 we do not have, in the Revelation, a series of events that follows taking place *after* the blowing of the 7th and last Trumpet!

So John, in speaking of "after I saw this vision, I saw another vision" does not translate into "the fulfillment of this vision will be followed by the next vision in historical succession. "After this I saw" only means it was the next vision he was given--not that the next vision implies the it will represent a linear succession. In chs. 11-14 John saw vision after vision completely out of historical succession. He was just speaking of the fact he was led from one vision to another.

 

[iamlamad]

I hear this all the time from Pretribbers, that God is punishing Christians for having "missed the Rapture" in the 1st place. However, the biblical portrait of the Tribulation Saints is quite different from this! As opposed to the way you depicted it, God is praising them for their endurance and perseverance in faith. They are held up as exemplary, to be rewarded as "faithful." You cast shame on those who die for Christ? The mind boggles!

I said nothing like what you are accusing me of saying. I let many things slide, but I cannot let this go without answering.
Whether or not you believe it, Jesus is coming just before the 6th seal to gather together His saints. It is NOT His desire or His plan that ANY believer is left behind to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. Again, whether you believe it or not, this Jewish age is going to end with the seven years of Jacob's trouble.

Again, it is not God's will that anyone who believes in Jesus go through this time of God's wrath against the sinners. His wrath is going to affect all who are on the earth. For example, when God cranks up the heat of the sun to scorch people, It will affect all on the planet. When God turns out the lights, it is going to affect all on the planet. God wants all believers to accept His escape plan.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

HOW are we (or anyone) to escape the days of God's wrath? How are we to obey the last seven words here: "to stand before the sun of man?" What did Paul write in his classic rapture passage? "So shall we ever be with the Lord." "We should live together with Him." This is how we stand before the Son on Man: we get raptured.

The truth then is, people that will be left behind, have no choice but to go though the days of GT. I am not casting shame on them at all. I am only stating the obvious: they were left behind, because, for the most part, they were not born again. They were not "in Christ." Many today who call themselves "Christian" are not born again. God's plan is that they ESCAPE what is coming by becoming born again and being ready. I take "looking for HIm" very literally. I believe Jesus expects us to take it literally.

It is true and I have heard people say it: "I don't want Jesus to come now. I have plans..." Such a person is not eagerly awaiting His coming and I suspect they will be left behind.

However, since you don't believe in any of this, we have no common ground to work with. All I can add is, wait and see.

 

[RandyPNW]

I said nothing like what you are accusing me of saying. I let many things slide, but I cannot let this go without answering.
Whether or not you believe it, Jesus is coming just before the 6th seal to gather together His saints. It is NOT His desire or His plan that ANY believer is left behind to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. Again, whether you believe it or not, this Jewish age is going to end with the seven years of Jacob's trouble.

Again, it is not God's will that anyone who believes in Jesus go through this time of God's wrath against the sinners. His wrath is going to affect all who are on the earth. For example, when God cranks up the heat of the sun to scorch people, It will affect all on the planet. When God turns out the lights, it is going to affect all on the planet. God wants all believers to accept His escape plan.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

HOW are we (or anyone) to escape the days of God's wrath? How are we to obey the last seven words here: "to stand before the sun of man?" What did Paul write in his classic rapture passage? "So shall we ever be with the Lord." "We should live together with Him." This is how we stand before the Son on Man: we get raptured.

The truth then is, people that will be left behind, have no choice but to go though the days of GT. I am not casting shame on them at all. I am only stating the obvious: they were left behind, because, for the most part, they were not born again. They were not "in Christ." Many today who call themselves "Christian" are not born again. God's plan is that they ESCAPE what is coming by becoming born again and being ready. I take "looking for HIm" very literally. I believe Jesus expects us to take it literally.

It is true and I have heard people say it: "I don't want Jesus to come now. I have plans..." Such a person is not eagerly awaiting His coming and I suspect they will be left behind.

However, since you don't believe in any of this, we have no common ground to work with. All I can add is, wait and see.

We have no "common ground" with respect to your supposed "proofs" of a Pretrib Rapture, yes. Your proofs consist of you claiming it to be so on your own authority, along with a few Bible references that have little to do with a Pretrib Rapture. It must be "read into" the passages.

For example, "the time of Jacob's trouble" in no way implies a Pretrib Rapture. "Praying for an escape so that one may stand before Christ" also has no reference to a Pretrib Rapture.

Look at the full context of "praying for escape." In what sense were Jesus' Disciples to pray for an escape? It was to avoid falling into sin and debauchery along with the rest of the Jewish crowd. The society had fallen so far in such despicable sin that they were about to be punished with Roman destruction.

This is what Jesus' Disciples were to pray for an escape from--a capitulation to social pressures, becoming worldly and sinful to the extent they too then would suffer divine judgment in 70 AD. And if so, they will not be able to "stand" in their witness to Christ. They will have fallen under judgment. Here is exactly what Jesus said:

Luke 21.34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

"Coming upon the face of the whole earth" does sound universal, but this language is typical biblical expression for "every bit of land within the vicinity." The "earth" refers to the ground beneath their feet, and not the planet. They were not astronomers!

So the language can indeed be somewhat deceiving, but the context is clear. Jesus said the temple and Jerusalem were about to be judged. And there was no place within distance that was safe from God's coming judgment by the Romans. So they were to avoid sin, and then escape to the hills, in obedience to the Lord. In this way they will "stand before the Son of Man," obedient disciples of Christ.

I do understand that some of these passages are debatable, but what is not debatable is the fact that Pretrib Doctrine is *not* taught in any explicit way in t he Scriptures. It must be assumed without any explicit biblical theology at all! Just being assured that we will escape God's Wrath is the equivalent of accepting Christ as our Savior. It is not to be supposed that "escape" is escape from the Reign of Antichrist.

Anyway, if you're stuck in your beliefs, that doesn't hurt me any. You can believe what you want. I just believe I must follow the Scriptures where they lead, and share it the best I can. Enjoy your day.

 

[iamlamad]

We have no "common ground" with respect to your supposed "proofs" of a Pretrib Rapture, yes. Your proofs consist of you claiming it to be so on your own authority, along with a few Bible references that have little to do with a Pretrib Rapture. It must be "read into" the passages.

For example, "the time of Jacob's trouble" in no way implies a Pretrib Rapture. "Praying for an escape so that one may stand before Christ" also has no reference to a Pretrib Rapture.

Look at the full context of "praying for escape." In what sense were Jesus' Disciples to pray for an escape? It was to avoid falling into sin and debauchery along with the rest of the Jewish crowd. The society had fallen so far in such despicable sin that they were about to be punished with Roman destruction.

This is what Jesus' Disciples were to pray for an escape from--a capitulation to social pressures, becoming worldly and sinful to the extent they too then would suffer divine judgment in 70 AD. And if so, they will not be able to "stand" in their witness to Christ. They will have fallen under judgment. Here is exactly what Jesus said:

Luke 21.34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

"Coming upon the face of the whole earth" does sound universal, but this language is typical biblical expression for "every bit of land within the vicinity." The "earth" refers to the ground beneath their feet, and not the planet. They were not astronomers!

So the language can indeed be somewhat deceiving, but the context is clear. Jesus said the temple and Jerusalem were about to be judged. And there was no place within distance that was safe from God's coming judgment by the Romans. So they were to avoid sin, and then escape to the hills, in obedience to the Lord. In this way they will "stand before the Son of Man," obedient disciples of Christ.

I do understand that some of these passages are debatable, but what is not debatable is the fact that Pretrib Doctrine is *not* taught in any explicit way in t he Scriptures. It must be assumed without any explicit biblical theology at all! Just being assured that we will escape God's Wrath is the equivalent of accepting Christ as our Savior. It is not to be supposed that "escape" is escape from the Reign of Antichrist.

Anyway, if you're stuck in your beliefs, that doesn't hurt me any. You can believe what you want. I just believe I must follow the Scriptures where they lead, and share it the best I can. Enjoy your day.

It's very simple, what I consider bible proof is not proof at all to you, because you don't believe God showed John the vision in any kind of order, or that John did not write in any kind of order. On the other hand, I believe God showed John the exact order these events will take place, seals first, in the order specified by John's numbers, then the trumpets in the order given and then the bowls, and finally, His coming to Armageddon after the week has ended.

You insist there is no week shown. I disagree for God gave to John 5 five different mentions of the last half of the week, in days, in months and and times or years. These five are actually countdowns from the passage of mention to the end of the week. So we have five mentions of the last half of the week.

One day as I was reading Daniel 9:27, when my mind and my eyes got to the word "midst," suddenly God spoke to me in what sounded like an audible voice:

You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation.

I was instantly "in the spirit" and could not answer, but my spirit man asked, "How would I find that?" Jesus answered:

Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint to the end of the week, I always included the three and a half year period of time. When you find the mention of the three and a half years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'

When He said I could find the entire 70th week, I suddenly knew why: God used the same marker for the beginning and end of the week as he used for the midpoint marker. Now, after His help, I know that God used sevens as markers. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

11:2: the 42 month countdown to the end of the week for the city to be trampled by Gentiles.
11:3: the 1260 day countdown to the end of the week for the Two Witnesses testifying.

11:15: the exact midpoint or division point of the week marked by the 7th trumpet

12:6 the 1260 day countdown to the end of the week for those in Judea fleeing.
12:14 the time, times and half of time countdown to the end of the week for supernatural protection.
13:5: the 42 month countdown of authority given the Beast

Just as Jesus said, I could find the exact midpoint marked "very close" to the five mentions of the three and a half years. The 7th trumpet sounds after two countdowns and before three.

Straight from Jesus words, there IS a midpoint "clearly marked" by the 7th trumpet in Revelation. IF there is a midpoint, and there is, then there is an entire week. The Week begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th bowl.

God's word, spoken to me is amply proof to be that the 70th week is future to us today, and will certainly happen, just as John wrote it.

"Your proofs consist of you claiming it to be so on your own authority, "

No, not by my own authority alone, but By the words of Jesus spoken to me, and by the Written word that confirms what Jesus spoke.

You wrote that "in must be read into" the passages.

Did you notice that John saw the just-raptured church in heaven, not in chapter 19 where posttribbers claim the rapture will take place, but John saw and wrote in Chapter 7, before He started the 70th week. As I said before, I KNOW the rapture will be pretrib because I know that 6 comes before 7 in counting, so I know Jesus will open the 6th seal before He will open the 7th seal. John numbered them for sequencing. I know it because I believe John. I believe God's plan in Revelation is to reveal, not hide, so I take what John wrote very literally when possible.

Why do I think that large crowd, too large to number, is the raptured church?
1. Because John wrote it just after the 6th seal will be opened which agrees with Paul's timing: just before the Day of the Lord.
2. Because of the size of the crowd: the raptured church will be perhaps 50 or more generations of believers so FAR FAR FAR greater a crowd that could come from just 7 years of time.
3. Because it SOUNDS like the church: "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues"
4. Because it is just like God to show His church that they will be in heaven before any part of His wrath is felt on earth. This book of Revelation is a book of revealing, not a book of hiding. All one must do is believe it.

In the end, I find John and Paul fit together like a hand in a glove. Paul shows us the rapture before wrath or before the Day of His wrath, and John shows us the same thing: the Great crowd seen in heaven just after the Day of wrath will start. Since they are already in heaven, we can fill in the time they arrived as just before the start of the Day of wrath. Therefore I don't have to "read into" any text: I only have to believe God's intent when He had the text written. I understand His intent because He told me.

What is the overall context of Luke 21:36, the "escape." What should we make of the "all these things that shall come to pass" that the escape is for? I wise person would study all three versions of the Olivet Discourse to find the answer.
One glaring thing people should desire to escape comes from Matthew 24: the days of great tribulation.

Did you not notice when in the chronology of Revelation that Jesus begins to reign over the kingdoms of the earth? It is at the 7th trumpet that is the division point of the week. In other words, God's EXACT WILL is going to be done on earth as His will is done in heaven. IN other words, Every saint that is beheaded during those days of great tribulation will be beheaded while Jesus is reigning over every detail on earth—HIs will being done on earth as His will is done in heaven. This is hard, but it is scripture. It is why Jesus is standing, with His arms wide open, compelling people to come BEFORE the rapture. His will is they ESCAPE what is coming. This is His perfect will for all.

However, God knows the future and knows that many will put off making a decision for Christ until it is too late. They will then be FORCED to make the hard decisions.

Zechariah 12:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle...

The Day of the Lord is for the heathen nations, while the 70th week is for Daniel's people.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city [Jerusalem] was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Verses like these tell me this is going to be world wide. All the nations will be deceived by the Beast and False prophet. That at least hints strongly that the murdering of the Tribulation saints (only a remnant left) will probably be world wide.

 

[RandyPNW]

It's very simple, what I consider bible proof is not proof at all to you, because you don't believe God showed John the vision in any kind of order, or that John did not write in any kind of order.

Obviously the Revelation has an "order," but nothing in the Revelation itself indicates that the chronology of the visions represents a chronology in the fulfillment of those visions. Vision after vision is given announcing the same Coming of the Son of Man. If it is expressed several times, that doesn't mean Christ is going to return several times.

You insist there is no week shown. I disagree for God gave to John 5 five different mentions of the last half of the week, in days, in months and and times or years. These five are actually countdowns from the passage of mention to the end of the week. So we have five mentions of the last half of the week.

Sorry, 3.5 years is not 7 years. The mention of something happening in the midst of the 70th Week in Dan 9 happened with the cessation of animal sacrifices in the time of Jesus. And that happened when Christ himself was sacrificed 3.5 years into his ministry. There is no last half of the 70th Week. The 70 Weeks prophecy was completed at his death.

Nothing in the Revelation suggests that the 3.5 years of Antichristian rule is related to Daniel's 70th Week. That must be "read into" the text.

Did you notice that John saw the just-raptured church in heaven, not in chapter 19 where posttribbers claim the rapture will take place, but John saw and wrote in Chapter 7, before He started the 70th week. As I said before, I KNOW the rapture will be pretrib because I know that 6 comes before 7 in counting, so I know Jesus will open the 6th seal before He will open the 7th seal. John numbered them for sequencing. I know it because I believe John. I believe God's plan in Revelation is to reveal, not hide, so I take what John wrote very literally when possible.

My argument is that the Seals do not represent a chronology of fulfillments. The 6th Seal is showing what is going to happen at the Last Trumpet.

Why do I think that large crowd, too large to number, is the raptured church?

I'm not even arguing that the Great Multitude is not the Church! Why are you even arguing this. Nothing, however, indicates they are brought out of great tribulation before that period ends.

What is the overall context of Luke 21:36, the "escape." What should we make of the "all these things that shall come to pass" that the escape is for? I wise person would study all three versions of the Olivet Discourse to find the answer.
One glaring thing people should desire to escape comes from Matthew 24: the days of great tribulation.

The "Great Tribulation," according to Jesus, is the NT Jewish Diaspora. It is not, strictly, the final 3.5 years of the age when Antichrist rules.

However, Jesus was speaking to his Disciples about escaping from judgment in their generation, namely from the Roman siege about to take place. Jesus told them to pray for endurance in righteous living, so that God's Wrath will not come upon them too. If they were faithful they could escape with their brethren to the nearby hills when they heard the Romans were coming.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not dying on this hill, but I would at least hypothetically argue the point. When the Flood took place, the language used would seem to us, in the modern world, to be speaking of the entire globe. But in that day, the language would be purely local. For "all the earth under the heavens to be covered with water" would be seen from the spectator's point of view. And a spectator from a local perspective would not be able to see around the curve of the earth.

This is a ridiculous argument, even if hypothetical.

God was telling Moses what to write in Genesis.

The Flood was from God's perspective. Of course the whole earth was covered with water. And the earth is flat from God's perspective. There is no curve.

And no! God did not present His perspective as coming from a human standing on the earth. The chapter starts out that God is conflicted with humanity on the earth.

"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Would it not be more miraculous if God destroyed the whole earth and killed all the wicked with a Flood, but never used any water, except in one spot on the earth?

If we point out hypothetically how much water it would take to cover a single mountain range on a sphere, did God also create a huge wall to contain that water so it would not spill out of your hypothetical local? Even on a sphere, it would be physically impossible to cover this local mountain range, without also filling the rest of the earth with water. In fact it would take more water to cover a sphere than if the earth were flat. Perhaps there was another mountain range that was higher and encircled this local area? You would still have to admit there were no oceans prior to the Flood. That would mean water was covering the earth already. After the Flood, this outer mountain range would have been moved to release the water and form oceans. That is a lot of hypothetical what ifs to point out the water did not cover the entire earth. Obviously your "person standing on the earth perspective" does not really account for all the physics related to your objection. If one's view drops off from a curve, so would all that water, instead of rising.

 

[RandyPNW]

This is a ridiculous argument, even if hypothetical.

God was telling Moses what to write in Genesis.

The Flood was from God's perspective. Of course the whole earth was covered with water. And the earth is flat from God's perspective. There is no curve.

And no! God did not present His perspective as coming from a human standing on the earth. The chapter starts out that God is conflicted with humanity on the earth.

"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Would it not be more miraculous if God destroyed the whole earth and killed all the wicked with a Flood, but never used any water, except in one spot on the earth?

If we point out hypothetically how much water it would take to cover a single mountain range on a sphere, did God also create a huge wall to contain that water so it would not spill out of your hypothetical local? Even on a sphere, it would be physically impossible to cover this local mountain range, without also filling the rest of the earth with water. In fact it would take more water to cover a sphere than if the earth were flat. Perhaps there was another mountain range that was higher and encircled this local area? You would still have to admit there were no oceans prior to the Flood. That would mean water was covering the earth already. After the Flood, this outer mountain range would have been moved to release the water and form oceans. That is a lot of hypothetical what ifs to point out the water did not cover the entire earth. Obviously your "person standing on the earth perspective" does not really account for all the physics related to your objection. If one's view drops off from a curve, so would all that water, instead of rising.

I would discuss this with you, but you don't take my views seriously. I would recommend you read what I read--Bernard Ramm's "The Christian View of Science and Scripture." It completely changed my view on this.

 

[iamlamad]

My argument is that the Seals do not represent a chronology of fulfillments. The 6th Seal is showing what is going to happen at the Last Trumpet.

There is one mention of "the last trump" and that was Paul's second passage on the rapture, in 1 Cor. 15. Since that is a sister passage of Paul's first passage on the rapture, we can refer back to 1 Thes. 4 & 5 for Paul's timing. In 4:17 we read of the catching up, and in 5:2 he mentions the Day of the Lord. We must ask, why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord in his rapture passage, and a few verses later, mention God's wrath? There must be a connection between the rapture and the Day of the Lord.

Since we know from other passages that the Day of the Lord comes with wrath and fierce anger, we know the rapture must come before that.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Paul, the same man that wrote of the rapture, wrote these verses. Two of them are in the same letter where he wrote of the rapture. In 1:10 we are to be delivered from wrath. In 5:9, in his rapture passage, he wrote that we are not appointed to wrath, while "they" and "them" — those that walk in darkness, ARE appointed to wrath.

What many people miss is that this sudden destruction wrath comes at the same moment in time that those who are alive and in Christ are caught up. Paul hints strongly that this sudden destruction comes with God's wrath, or is a part of God's wrath. In other words, WE get caught up, and get to live together with Him, while "they" get left behind and suffer the sudden destruction.

All these verses hint to us that Paul did give us timing information for the rapture: it will come just before God's wrath. As I pointed out before, John backs this up, showing us that the church will be in heaven just after God's wrath will begin at the 6th seal.

6:1...I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals
6:3 And when he had opened the second seal,
6:5 And when he had opened the third seal,
6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal
6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal,
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,

John is giving us ORDER here. That is the very purpose of the words "second," third, etc.

This is the order of the vision—a vision which is suppose to reveal, not hide. I don't see a need for John to add words to tell us this is the order these things will happen in.

5:1 ...a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
5:2 ... Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
5:3 ...no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book
5:4 ...no man was found worthy to open and to read the book,
5:5 ... hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Notice that the emphasis is on opening the book, because it is written WITHIN. Therefore, it just makes good sense that in 8:1 when the last seal is opened, the book is opened—without John writing those exact words.

8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

According to the first five verses in chapter 5 about the book, I believe in 8:2 John is seeing come to pass the first words written INSIDE the book. What does this tell us? It tells us that NO angel will get a trumpet to sound UNTIL all seals are opened. In other words, John is proving his chronology in the very order he wrote it.

What does all this prove? Very simple: the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord will certainly come to pass before the 7th seal begins the 70th week. Let's look again at the very words Jesus spoke to me.

Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint to the end of the week, I always included the three and a half year period of time. When you find the mention of the three and a half years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'

I submit that to have "an exact midpoint" there must be an entire week to divide into two halves. Then Jesus said I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked in the book of Revelation.

If the exact midpoint of the week is found in chapter 11, and it is, does not not make good sense that if we look back in the previous chapters we would find the first half of the week?

This is what is going to happen: one day the man of sin will enter the new Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declare that he is the God of the Jews. This will be the abomination that Daniel 9:27 warned us of. This destroys any theory that it happened in the past. I am always going to take the words of Jesus spoke to me that to believe your words that disagree with Jesus' words.

Your argument that the seals John numbered for sequencing are not really sequencing, is a very weak argument.

 

[iamlamad]

I'm not even arguing that the Great Multitude is not the Church! Why are you even arguing this. Nothing, however, indicates they are brought out of great tribulation before that period ends.

The "Great Tribulation," according to Jesus, is the NT Jewish Diaspora. It is not, strictly, the final 3.5 years of the age when Antichrist rules.

I am so happy that you see this great crowd, too large to number, as the church. It was Marvin Rosenthal that convinced me, in his very well written pre-wrath rapture book. (That was the only thing he convinced me of.)

Did you ever wonder why John stopped his narrative of the seals after the 6th seal but before the 7th, and wrote an "intermission" chapter? Did you ever see a play when they close the curtain between acts of the play? What goes on behind the curtain? They are rearranging the setting for the next act.

This is exactly what John does in Revelation 7. God our Father MUST see two events accomplished before He will allow the hurt to begin on earth: the first trumpet judgments. These two events are first the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection during the trumpet judgments. The second event: God MUST see the church safely in heaven before He allows the Hurt (backed up by His wrath) to begin with the first trumpet judgment. John "rearranges the setting" in chapter 7, an intermission chapter, so that the set will fit the next act: the start of the 70th week of Daniel which will begin with the trumpet judgments.

See how neatly and chronological John wrote?

If you just follow John's chronology, you will see that the days of great tribulation (GT) Jesus spoke of will not come to pass until late in chapter 14 of Revelation. Before God allows the man of sin to begin enforcing the mark, God will send angels to warn the people what will happen if they receive the mark. I trust God to make this warning before the mark will be enforced by death.

Just so you know, there was no Revelation 13 Beast—nor was there a man of sin that entered the temple and declared he was God—nor was there a False Prophet to follow—nor was there a mark put on the forehead or right hand of all who swore allegiance to the Beast. Nothing written in Revelation 13 really fits history, for the simple reason that these events are future.

The last time an image was created and people forced to bow before the image or lose their head was back in the days of Nebuchadnezzar. However, it is going to be repeated. Another thing that is going to happen but absolutely did not happen back then is the big lie: that the man of sin is the one true creator God and must be worshiped. Revelation tells us that he and the false prophet will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD. Rome did not come close. MANY in Rome's day suffered under Rome, but never were deceived into worshiping the emperor. Yet, that day is coming. By the way, no false religion has even come close.

Another thing that never happened then, but will surely happen.

2 Thes. 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.

What lie again? That the Beast is the one true creator God and must be worshiped. It is written that the entire world wondered after the Beast.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

With all this proof, I am amazed that people miss it. There were no angels warning people in their own language back then. There are going to be FUTURE days of GT starting late in Rev. 14, after the warning.

Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev, 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 15 shows us the martyrs of the two Beasts BEGINNING to show up in heaven, right after John saw the 7 angels with the seven last plagues.

 

[iamlamad]

There is no last half of the 70th Week. The 70 Weeks prophecy was completed at his death.

All I can say is, Jesus disagrees with you.

 

[RandyPNW]

All I can say is, Jesus disagrees with you.

You don't speak for Jesus. Let Jesus speak for himself.

 

[RandyPNW]

I am so happy that you see this great crowd, too large to number, as the church. It was Marvin Rosenthal that convinced me, in his very well written pre-wrath rapture book. (That was the only thing he convinced me of.)

Did you ever wonder why John stopped his narrative of the seals after the 6th seal but before the 7th, and wrote an "intermission" chapter? Did you ever see a play when they close the curtain between acts of the play? What goes on behind the curtain? They are rearranging the setting for the next act.

This is exactly what John does in Revelation 7. God our Father MUST see two events accomplished before He will allow the hurt to begin on earth: the first trumpet judgments. These two events are first the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection during the trumpet judgments. The second event: God MUST see the church safely in heaven before He allows the Hurt (backed up by His wrath) to begin with the first trumpet judgment. John "rearranges the setting" in chapter 7, an intermission chapter, so that the set will fit the next act: the start of the 70th week of Daniel which will begin with the trumpet judgments.

See how neatly and chronological John wrote?

If you just follow John's chronology, you will see that the days of great tribulation (GT) Jesus spoke of will not come to pass until late in chapter 14 of Revelation. Before God allows the man of sin to begin enforcing the mark, God will send angels to warn the people what will happen if they receive the mark. I trust God to make this warning before the mark will be enforced by death.

Just so you know, there was no Revelation 13 Beast—nor was there a man of sin that entered the temple and declared he was God—nor was there a False Prophet to follow—nor was there a mark put on the forehead or right hand of all who swore allegiance to the Beast. Nothing written in Revelation 13 really fits history, for the simple reason that these events are future.

The last time an image was created and people forced to bow before the image or lose their head was back in the days of Nebuchadnezzar. However, it is going to be repeated. Another thing that is going to happen but absolutely did not happen back then is the big lie: that the man of sin is the one true creator God and must be worshiped. Revelation tells us that he and the false prophet will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD. Rome did not come close. MANY in Rome's day suffered under Rome, but never were deceived into worshiping the emperor. Yet, that day is coming. By the way, no false religion has even come close.

Another thing that never happened then, but will surely happen.

2 Thes. 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.

What lie again? That the Beast is the one true creator God and must be worshiped. It is written that the entire world wondered after the Beast.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

With all this proof, I am amazed that people miss it. There were no angels warning people in their own language back then. There are going to be FUTURE days of GT starting late in Rev. 14, after the warning.

Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev, 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 15 shows us the martyrs of the two Beasts BEGINNING to show up in heaven, right after John saw the 7 angels with the seven last plagues.

You must be thinking I'm someone else. I do believe the book of Revelation is about the *future.* I never said the book of Revelation is about the Roman Government except that it is understood by use of the "Beast" that the reference is going back to the 4th Beast in Dan 7, which represents the Roman Kingdom. Antichrist will come out of the Roman Imperial Tradition, namely out of European Civilization. But yes, he has yet to come. He is future.

 

[iamlamad]

You don't speak for Jesus. Let Jesus speak for himself.

I quoted His exact words to me, but you don't believe them. Not because they disagree with the written word, but because they disagree with your perceptions of the written word.

Preconceived theories can certainly hide the truth of scripture. We must be very careful to read scripture without preconceptions.

Jesus' words spoken to me: "Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the three and a half year period of time."

The trampling of the city by Gentiles is the first example of an event starting at the midpoint and continuing to the end of the week. This is absolute proof that the "week" exists on the Mind of Christ and in the written scriptures.

Where you miss it: if there is a midpoint, then there has to be an entire week to be divided.

 

[RandyPNW]

I quoted His exact words to me, but you don't believe them. Not because they disagree with the written word, but because they disagree with your perceptions of the written word.

Preconceived theories can certainly hide the truth of scripture. We must be very careful to read scripture without preconceptions.

Jesus' words spoken to me: "Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the three and a half year period of time."

The trampling of the city by Gentiles is the first example of an event starting at the midpoint and continuing to the end of the week. This is absolute proof that the "week" exists on the Mind of Christ and in the written scriptures.

Where you miss it: if there is a midpoint, then there has to be an entire week to be divided.

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone said, "God told me." If you can't base your argument on, "the Scriptures says," then you're wasting your time with me.

 

[Timtofly]

I would discuss this with you, but you don't take my views seriously. I would recommend you read what I read--Bernard Ramm's "The Christian View of Science and Scripture." It completely changed my view on this.

I would not respond if that were the case.

I am not discussing this with Bernard Ramm.

I have heard most arguments brought on by the higher criticism of the 17th and 18th centuries. Is that not what influenced Darwin, who in turn influenced modern science?

Higher criticism sounds like something that did happen in Genesis:

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said."

 

[RandyPNW]

I would not respond if that were the case.

I am not discussing this with Bernard Ramm.

I have heard most arguments brought on by the higher criticism of the 17th and 18th centuries. Is that not what influenced Darwin, who in turn influenced modern science?

Higher criticism sounds like something that did happen in Genesis:

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said."

Ramm was a believer in Scriptural authority and inspiration. He's dead. You aren't interested in checking your work. You should dispose of your spell-checker too?