Proof "Queen of Heaven" IS actually Pagan. And Mary was NOT sinless.

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Christ is called the King. Mary is called the Queen Mother. She is called the Queen of Heaven because of the heavenly imagery used in John's vision in Rev 12.

You are talking in circles. As you have apparently stated there are two deities in heaven - Jesus Christ (the King) and Mary (the Queen). In this scenario there is no room for any other deities such as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit because they play no role in the monarchial scenario you have envisioned.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

It seems like the entire notion of Mary being 'Queen of Heaven' is no more then a conjuration of Christianity being adulterated through Hellenized society. The Greco-Roman cultures have goddesses all throughout their past religions, who symbolize things such as fertility or purity.
As far as the Bible goes in regard to these cultural beliefs is that 'milk and honey' are known to be foods of the gods according to ancient Greek religion. So, it would make sense that they would these things and suppose a sort of synchronization to some of their ideologies be in order, with Mary being one.

 

[Bible Page]

I want to make clear that this is NOT an intended malicious attack on Catholics. This is simply an exposure of myth and misconceptions.

Riiiiight.

 

[Open Heart]

You are talking in circles. As you have apparently stated there are two deities in heaven - Jesus Christ (the King) and Mary (the Queen). In this scenario there is no room for any other deities such as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit because they play no role in the monarchial scenario you have envisioned.

Oh of course not! Where have I EVER said that Mary was a God. You have concluded that, and wrongly so. It is utterly unwarranted.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Oh of course not! Where have I EVER said that Mary was a God. You have concluded that, and wrongly so. It is utterly unwarranted.

Okay . . . Here is what you and Patricious have asserted.

1. Jesus is the King of heaven.
2. Mary, being his mother, is the Queen of heaven (i.e. co-ruler with the King).

That leaves no place for God, the Father, or God, the Holy Spirit in the Royal Household, does it?

 

[Open Heart]

That leaves no place for God, the Father, or God, the Holy Spirit in the Royal Household, does it?

Sure it does. No metaphor is perfect. Jesus (God the son) is King. But God the Father is also King. How can this be so? Because King is a metaphor, it is how we perceive God. King is actually an earthly term.

God doesn't actually sit up in heaven with a beard and a scepter and a crown on his head. But he has ultimate authority over the universe and over us, which is LIKE a King, and so we call him a King.

In the same way, Mary is the first and best Christian. If it were not for her "YES" to God, Jesus would not have been born and salvation would not have entered the world. Her role is SO important, that she is LIKE a queen, and so John envisioned her as a queen. Plus she is the mother of Christ the King, which makes her LIKE the Queen Mother, and so we speak of her as the Queen Mother.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sure it does. No metaphor is perfect. Jesus (God the son) is King. But God the Father is also King. How can this be so? Because King is a metaphor, it is how we perceive God. King is actually an earthly term.

God doesn't actually sit up in heaven with a beard and a scepter and a crown on his head. But he has ultimate authority over the universe and over us, which is LIKE a King, and so we call him a King.

In the same way, Mary is the first and best Christian. If it were not for her "YES" to God, Jesus would not have been born and salvation would not have entered the world. Her role is SO important, that she is LIKE a queen, and so John envisioned her as a queen. Plus she is the mother of Christ the King, which makes her LIKE the Queen Mother, and so we speak of her as the Queen Mother.

I agree that metaphors have their limits. In this case, the metaphor, itself, is erroneous and is based upon a myth that, at best, is vaguely supported by one or two OT verses.

In any case, it is highly doubtful that Mary was the first Christian. In fact, I think your church would assert that its pope, Peter, was the first Christian.

 

[Open Heart]

In any case, it is highly doubtful that Mary was the first Christian. In fact, I think your church would assert that its pope, Peter, was the first Christian.

Mary believed in Jesus as her savior from the time of the annunciation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Mary believed in Jesus as her savior from the time of the annunciation.

Here is the biblical account of the annunciation from Luke 2. I have highlighted Mary's words in red,

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. 30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. 36 And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

I do not see any indication that Mary believed that Jesus Christ was her Savior, do you?

 

[Open Heart]

I do not see any indication that Mary believed that Jesus Christ was her Savior, do you?

and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.

Mary accepted these words of the Angel Gabriel, which described Jesus as the Christ. Thus, she was the first Christian.

 

[PapaZoom]

Mary is called the Queen of Heaven because Jesus is the King and in Israel the mother of the King was the Queen. The Bible doesn't call Mary the Mother of God but we know that Jesus is God and Mary is his mother so this title fits her and the same logic can be applied to the title of Queen of Heaven. The Bible says that Mary will give birth to a son and he will be given the throne of David and his reign will be forever. So the Kingdom will have a Davidic structure which means that Mary, who is the Mother of the King will be the Queen. It has nothing to do with authority. When Solomon was King his mother sat on a throne to his right, but she was not the King so she could only make requests and in the end only Solomon had the authority to exercise power.

Mary is the mother of Jesus in his humanity. Not his Godhood. Mary can't be the mother of God because God preexisted Mary (like eternally). Jesus was fully God and fully man. Mary was the mother of Jesus the man. Not Jesus the God.

 

[PapaZoom]

The idea that Mary is Queen of heaven is based on the vision of her clothed in the sun, standing upon the moon, and having a crown of 12 stars.

It is s stretch to suggest that this verse refers to mary the mother of Jesus.

 

[Open Heart]

Mary is the mother of Jesus in his humanity. Not his Godhood. Mary can't be the mother of God because God preexisted Mary (like eternally). Jesus was fully God and fully man. Mary was the mother of Jesus the man. Not Jesus the God.

Yes, Jesus had two natures, both man and God. But a woman doesn't give birth to natures. She gives birth to a person. That person of Jesus had both natures. He who was both God and man traveled through her birth canal. She didn't create God, so she didn't need to have pre-existed him. She gave birth to him, thus she is the Mother of God.

 

[Open Heart]

It is s stretch to suggest that this verse refers to mary the mother of Jesus.

It is not a stretch at all. The woman is she who gives birth to the Savior. Who is that? Mary. Christians have though for 2000 years that this verse referred to Mary. Do you think that would be the case if it were a "stretch"?

 

[PapaZoom]

Yes, Jesus had two natures, both man and God. But a woman doesn't give birth to natures. She gives birth to a person. That person of Jesus had both natures. He who was both God and man traveled through her birth canal. She didn't create God, so she didn't need to have pre-existed him. She gave birth to him, thus she is the Mother of God.

She did not give birth to God. That is nonsense. Man made up nonsense.

 

[PapaZoom]

It is not a stretch at all. The woman is she who gives birth to the Savior. Who is that? Mary. Christians have though for 2000 years that this verse referred to Mary. Do you think that would be the case if it were a "stretch"?

Some say it represents the Church while others say Israel. I most definitely does not mean Mary.

 

[football5680]

Mary is the mother of Jesus in his humanity. Not his Godhood. Mary can't be the mother of God because God preexisted Mary (like eternally). Jesus was fully God and fully man. Mary was the mother of Jesus the man. Not Jesus the God.

This sounds like Nestorianism which is heresy.

 

[Open Heart]

She did not give birth to God. That is nonsense. Man made up nonsense.

This is not an argument. You did not address my reasoning.

 

[Open Heart]

Some say it represents the Church while others say Israel. I most definitely does not mean Mary.

Again, the most obvious Mother of the Savior is Mary. This is attested to by the fact that most Christians for 2000 years have believed this.

 

[prodromos]

She did not give birth to God. That is nonsense. Man made up nonsense.

If she didn't give birth to God, then Jesus is not God. Is that what you believe?