Pro-life US Congressman urges mistress to get an abortion

[SPF]

Another source: The Christian Post, 70% of Women Who Get Abortions Identify as Christians, Survey Finds
The survey was conducted by the Southern Baptists, Lifeway Research. Here's the actual survey data.

"The survey, which interviewed 1,038 respondents who've all had abortions, found that 20 percent of the respondents attended church at least once a week at the time of their first pregnancy termination. Six percent said they attended church more than once per week, while about 54 percent said they rarely or never attended a church."

Call my pessimistic, but I personally suspect that probably 75% or more of people in this world that call themselves Christians are probably not actually Christians. I have never once taken any stock in large surveys like this. In fact, when I read the above stats on the survey, I would probably suspect that less than 6% of the people that called themselves Christians were in fact Christians.

But even if it were true that in reality 725 women out of 1,038 who had abortions did indeed have personal relationships with Jesus, then all that would indicate to me is that as Christians we are failing each other.

 

[majj27]

Call my pessimistic, but I personally suspect that probably 75% or more of people in this world that call themselves Christians are probably not actually Christians. I have never once taken any stock in large surveys like this. In fact, when I read the above stats on the survey, I would probably suspect that less than 6% of the people that called themselves Christians were in fact Christians.

If someone says they're a Christian, unless you can manage to find a universal definition that everyone agrees on, you kind of need to take them at their word. The other option is that the term "Christianity" loses meaning, because anyone can claim any other Christian is not one.

Now, people who call themselves Christians can certainly be LOUSY Christians, but that's a different thing.

 

[FenderTL5]

..I personally suspect that probably 75% or more of people in this world that call themselves Christians are probably not actually Christians..

No true Christian gets an abortion and no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

 

[SPF]

If someone says they're a Christian, unless you can manage to find a universal definition that everyone agrees on, you kind of need to take them at their word. The other option is that the term "Christianity" loses meaning, because anyone can claim any other Christian is not one.

Now, people who call themselves Christians can certainly be LOUSY Christians, but that's a different thing.

I hear you, and I agree that it's not my place to judge another person's heart. But I always think back to a time in highschool when I was traveling to a soccer game. One player asked another if he was a Christian. He responded by asking his mom who was driving, "Hey mom, we're Christians, right?" She smiled and said, "Yes honey, you're a Christian"

Do you think he was a Christian? I mean I guess he might have been, but then again, he had to ask his mom if he was or not. He was 17.

I just don't take any stock in mass national surveys. In my opinion there are way too many "cultural Christians" for them to have any significance.

 

[Archivist]

He's right. In Exodus 21, we have a clear indication that life for life is required, even when that life is the unborn child of a pregnant woman.

Exodus 21: King James Version (KJV):

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Now from the Hebrew Lexicon

So that her fruit:

Hebrew: יֶלֶד yeled

he KJV translates Strongs H3206 in the following manner:child (72x), young man (7x), young ones(3x), sons (3x), boy (2x), fruit (1x), variant (1x).
child, son, boy, offspring, youth
1. child, son, boy
2. child, children
3. descendants
4. youth


Yeled is not miscarriage nor still birth, it's a live child. Is there a Hebrew word for miscarriage and stillborn? Yes and it is not Yeled.


Exodus 23: KJV
26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will
fulfil.


The above now in the Hebrew lexicon:
שָׁכֹל shakol
The KJV translates Strongs H7921 in the following manner:bereave (10x),barren (2x), childless(2x), cast young (2x), cast a calf (1x), lost children (1x),rob of children (1x), deprived (1x), misc (5x).
שָׁכֹל shâkôl, shaw-kole'; a primitive root; properly, to miscarry, i.e. suffer abortion; by analogy, to
bereave (literally or figuratively):—bereave (of children), barren, cast calf (fruit, young), be (make) childless, deprive, destroy, × expect, lose children, miscarry, rob of children, spoil.

So we can see shakol is not used in Exodus 21:22ff.

Yaled is alive; shakol is miscarriage.

Exodus 21:22-25 describes a case where a pregnant woman jumps into a fight between her husband and another man and suffers injuries that cause her to miscarry. Injuries to the woman prompt the normal penalties for harming another human being: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. Killing the woman is murder, a capital crime.

The miscarriage is treated differently, however — as property loss, not murder. The assailant must pay a fine to the husband. The law of a life for a life does not apply. The fetus is important, but it’s not human life in the same way the pregnant woman is.

 

[majj27]

I hear you, and I agree that it's not my place to judge another person's heart. But I always think back to a time in highschool when I was traveling to a soccer game. One player asked another if he was a Christian. He responded by asking his mom who was driving, "Hey mom, we're Christians, right?" She smiled and said, "Yes honey, you're a Christian"

Do you think he was a Christian? I mean I guess he might have been, but then again, he had to ask his mom if he was or not. He was 17.

I just don't take any stock in mass national surveys. In my opinion there are way too many "cultural Christians" for them to have any significance.

Some Christians think Catholics aren't Christians. Others think SDA folk aren't Christians. Others argue that people in their own denomination that don't agree with them on predestination aren't really Christians. I'm sure there are folks here on CF that are certain that I'm not a Christian.

When it comes down to it, either people who say they are Christians are Christians, or you only know of one Real Christian (yourself) at most, and the rest are not to be believed, because who knows? About as much as I can say is "Person X sure as heck doesn't act like a Christian. They may be one, but they're really bad at it."

 

[SPF]

Exodus 21:22-25 describes a case where a pregnant woman jumps into a fight between her husband and another man and suffers injuries that cause her to miscarry. Injuries to the woman prompt the normal penalties for harming another human being: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. Killing the woman is murder, a capital crime.

The miscarriage is treated differently, however — as property loss, not murder. The assailant must pay a fine to the husband. The law of a life for a life does not apply. The fetus is important, but it’s not human life in the same way the pregnant woman is.

I of course disagree. The passage is saying that if as a result of the pregnant woman becoming involved she gives birth and her child lives, then the man will still be punished, but not life for life (because there was no loss of life). However, if the as a result of the pregnant woman's involvement, she as a result miscarries, then the penalty is life for life.

So thank you for pointing out that Scripture does indeed treat the unborn as morally valuable.

 

[Archivist]

I of course disagree. The passage is saying that if as a result of the pregnant woman becoming involved she gives birth and her child lives, then the man will still be punished, but not life for life (because there was no loss of life). However, if the as a result of the pregnant woman's involvement, she as a result miscarries, then the penalty is life for life.

Biblical scholars have debated these words. To me the meaning is clear: If a miscarriage produced by a hurt costs the woman her life the man who caused it was to suffer death. If it results in the loss of the fetus then the penalty was to be a fine. Yes, the fetus has a certain worth, but it is not equal to that of the pregnant woman. You may disagree.

So thank you for pointing out that Scripture does indeed treat the unborn as morally valuable.

I never said otherwise. As I said, the fetus has a certain worth, but it is not equal to that of the pregnant woman.

 

[Clint Edwards]

Actually the Bible doesn't address the question of whether abortion is or is not murder.

The Bible does address whether the unborn are persons, people, known by God. If David was known by God before he was born, he obviously was a person then. Kill a person, itś murder

 

[Clint Edwards]

Back in the days pre-Roe, it was common for the nations elites to have easy access to abortion through a plane ticket to another state or country.

Your point being what ?

 

[Archivist]

The Bible does address whether the unborn are persons, people, known by God. If David was known by God before he was born, he obviously was a person then. Kill a person, itś murder

God is beyond time so of course He knows who an unborn person will be. That doesn’t make abortion murder.