The Liturgist

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I was appalled to read this: It is now illegal to pray out loud or make the sign of the cross in public

Essentially, Bournemouth has banned public displays of religion around an abortion clinic from 7 AM to 7 PM, by making it a public order offense, similiar to restrictions on the consumption of alcohol in various public spaces. The dubious objective was to “protect” women heading to the clinic from the proper efforts of Christian pro-life activists to dissuade them, since apparently political correctness is more valuable than eternal life or upholding the traditional moral values of the United Kingdom*.

Thus far, no one has been charged under the act, but I suspect it will happen. And if someone is prosecuted, there is some speculation that the law violates the European
Convention of Human Rights, but obviously I am a minister, not a lawyer, and am not providing legal advice, and furthermore, if I personally lived in the UK I wouldn’t try it, because the prospect of a British gaol, as they spell what we Americans call a jail, and relying on the justices of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

Rather, I think British pro-life Christians should take legal advice on how to lawfully protest this outrage, pro-life clergy should denounce it from the pulpit, for example by adding prayers to the Orthodox Litany of Peace or the Anglican Great Litany or Prayers of the Church, or a collect to Evensong and Morning Prayer, and to their Roman Catholic equivalents (I don’t know the Novus Ordo mass and Liturgy of the Hours well enough to name the equivalent) if allowed by their bishops, whereas independent conservative churches such as the Plymouth Brethren, the Presbyterians of Northern Ireland, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, also known as the Covenanting Church, the Baptists, Adventists and other pro-life churches could perhaps pray extemporaneously, or otherwise in the case of the Covenanters and other conservative presbyterians follow whatever liturgical procedure is permitted in their respective books of order.

From the perspective of freedom to practice religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, Patristics, Church Tradition (Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox) and the Holy Bible the Bournemouth Council has done something I consider to be unethical, unconscionable, morally reprehensible, and an outrage against personal freedom, religious tolerance, and human dignity. Thus I propose that pro-life British Christians should band together, and prudently consider alliances even with other pro-life religions such as Mormonism and Orthodox Judaism, to lawfully protest and seek the repeal of this ill-conceived municipal ordinance.

*In the 19th century led the way in missionary activity, the abolition of slavery, and work against poverty through the efforts of groups such as the Wesleyan-influenced Salvation Army with its beautiful bass bands and uniforms (I could see myself joining if only they offered communion, baptism and other sacraments), and the Ultra High Church Anglicans known as Anglo-Catholics, who provided relief for the poor while being persecuted for daring to wear chasubles in their churches, something later found to not be a violation of the Act of Conformity since, as Rev. Percy Dearmer pointed out, the Ornaments Rubric permitted anything in use during the second year of the reign of King Edward VI, between 1548 and 1549, and that included chasubles.

** The Council of Europe is not to be confused with the European Council or the Council of the European Union, or the European Union itself, despite the fact they share identical flags, for the Council of Europe is a separate entity that manages the implementation of the European Convention on Human Rights, and unlike the EU, all European countries are members except for Belarus, due to capital punishment, and Russia, due to the situation in Ukraine, whereas several European countries including the UK (which famously became the first nation to leave with Brexit), and Switzerland, Norway, Turkey, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra, Albania Bosnia-Herzegovina, Georgia, Kosovo, North Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, San Marino, Moldova, the Ukraine, and the Vatican City State, which have never been members, but some have applied for membership (obviously Switzerland, Liechtenstein, which is by treaty afforded military protection by Switzerland, and the Vatican City State are unlikely to apply for membership for obvious reasons).

Likewise, the European Court of Human Rights is different from the European Court of Justice, the former being the court of final appeal in cases that involve alleged violations of the European Convention on Human Rights, and an organ of the Council of Europe, whereas the European Court of Justice is an organ of the European Union and adjudicates disputes over EU laws and regulations and also certain categories of disputes between EU member states.

In the same manner, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is different from the European Parliament, effectively the lower house of the EU legislature, with the Council of the European Union, also called the Council of Ministers, being akin to an upper house. The European Council in turn is comprised of the heads of government of each EU nation, and sets the overall strategic direction and policy of the EU, whereas the European Commission presides over the executive branch, with the President of the European Commission being the highest ranking EU official, akin to the Secretary General of the United Nations, but with much more power. There is also a European Court of Auditors responsible for auditing the accounts, the books if you will, of the European Union, which in the period prior Brexit had refused to sign off on the books for many years. I don’t know if this is still the case. The Eurocracy, as the vast bureaucracy of the EU is complex, and fascinating for someone like me who has an interest in comparative constitutional law. If you find it confusing, you are not alone, but the EU is popular among large segments of the European population, and unpopular with others. I don’t allow myself a political opinion on it - since returning to my old job as a Presbyter in 2019, I have limited my political opinions to issues that affect the lives and religious liberty of Christians, the Christian moral and ethical program, opposition to genocides and religious persecution, and also issues like transportation systems, aerospace policy, and water and power infrastructure which people tend not to be particularly passionate about.
 
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WintersDust

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I wouldn't take that seriously. Besides being impossible to enforce such a rule, it's clearly a Satire site. Like The Babylon Bee.

You can tell just by this image on that same page.
''LOVING JESUS WITH A SLIGHT AIR OF SUPREMACY SINCE AD 597''.^_^
CofEAirOfSuperiority-208x300.jpg
 
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dqhall

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I wouldn't take that seriously. Besides being impossible to enforce such a rule, it's clearly a Satire site. Like The Babylon Bee.

You can tell just by this image on that same page.
''LOVING JESUS WITH A SLIGHT AIR OF SUPREMACY SINCE AD 597''.^_^
CofEAirOfSuperiority-208x300.jpg
There are numerous articles about a ban on praying near abortion clinics in a British town.

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/...es-when-did-it-become-against-the-law-to-pray

English town forbids making sign of the cross, using holy water near abortion center

https://www.premierchristianity.com...o-place-for-them-in-a-democracy/14122.article

In Matthew 5:6-8 Jesus taught his disciples to pray in secret, in a room with the door shut.
 
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BobRyan

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Rather, I think British pro-life Christians should take legal advice on how to lawfully protest this outrage, pro-life clergy should denounce it from the pulpit, for example by adding prayers to the Orthodox Litany of Peace or the Anglican Great Litany or Prayers of the Church, or a collect to Evensong and Morning Prayer, and to their Roman Catholic equivalents (I don’t know the Novus Ordo mass and Liturgy of the Hours well enough to name the equivalent) if allowed by their bishops, whereas independent conservative churches such as the Plymouth Brethren, the Presbyterians of Northern Ireland, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, also known as the Covenanting Church, the Baptists, Adventists and other pro-life churches could perhaps pray extemporaneously, or otherwise in the case of the Covenanters and other conservative presbyterians follow whatever liturgical procedure is permitted in their respective books of order.

From the perspective of freedom to practice religion, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, Patristics, Church Tradition (Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox) and the Holy Bible the Bournemouth Council has done something I consider to be unethical, unconscionable, morally reprehensible, and an outrage against personal freedom, religious tolerance, and human dignity

Amen - Christians should take the LIFE principle in the Gospel and promote it rather than remain idle while attempts are made to keep God out of the mind of citizens so they can make choices that God does not approve of - without being reminded that God sees and "The hour of His judgment has come" Rev 14:7

AA13HqYb.img


Baby's blood red moon - abortion moon -- a reminder that God sees


Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights,

Luke 21:25 “There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,

Rev 6:12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its unripe figs
 
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DaveISBA

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Essentially, Bournemouth has banned public displays of religion around an abortion clinic from 7 AM to 7 PM, by making it a public order offense, similiar to restrictions on the consumption of alcohol in various public spaces.


We should all be warned! The aggressive persecution of Christians has begun!!!
 
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PloverWing

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Here's a BBC article about the Bournemouth situation: Buffer zone to be set up outside Bournemouth abortion clinic

The phrasing "illegal to pray out loud or make the sign of the cross in public" is misleading. This isn't about gathering in the park for Morning Prayer. It's about the limits of how far Christians are allowed to use our faith practices to intrude into other people's lives. In a free society, we're free to try to persuade people to live by the rules of our faith, but other people are also free to live their lives as they choose, and those two freedoms clash from time to time.

Parallels that come to mind are: I am free to protest the American military, but I am not free to enter a military base and protest on their property. I am free to say loudly that people ought not own guns or use them for self-defense, but I am not free to trespass on the property of a gun store when I am protesting or to harass people who are entering the gun store. I am free to say that God was incarnate in Jesus Christ, but I am not free to march into a synagogue during worship and start reading the Nicene Creed at them.

In a society that is both free and orderly, there have to be limits on how much I can use my freedom to intrude on your freedom.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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What I think is an interesting thought experiment, would be if a Christian town or area sought to set up the same. Only instead of protecting abortion (the left's most sacred sacrament), it protects Christianity from blasphemy. Let's say within a certain radius no blasphemy is permitted. The same sorts of people who would scream that they should be free from Christian intrusion into their lives would not make the argument that Christians should be free from blasphemy in their lives.
 
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The Liturgist

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The phrasing "illegal to pray out loud or make the sign of the cross in public" is misleading. This isn't about gathering in the park for Morning Prayer. It's about the limits of how far Christians are allowed to use our faith practices to intrude into other people's lives.

Sorry, but that’s just not true, even if it was the intent of the council.

Parallels that come to mind are: I am free to protest the American military, but I am not free to enter a military base and protest on their property.

That’s a strawman because you can freely protest outside the limits of the base.

I am free to say loudly that people ought not own guns or use them for self-defense, but I am not free to trespass on the property of a gun store when I am protesting or to harass people who are entering the gun store.

Again, a strawman because while you cannot harass people, you can loudly pray that God would cause the gun store to close, and also offer flyers to those entering store, which this legislation prohibits.

I am free to say that God was incarnate in Jesus Christ, but I am not free to march into a synagogue during worship and start reading the Nicene Creed at them.

Another strawman, since this legislation bans displays of Christian worship in the public space outside the abortion. Also I would note entering a synagogue and disrupting Jews who are davening would be anti-Semitic and a good way to attract well-deserved scrutiny by the Anti-Definition League. Indeed I take exception to the idea that protesting abortion outside a clinic, which many Jews oppose, is equivalent to to entering into a synagogue and disrupting prayers. It basically comes across as suggesting that pro-life activists are motivated by hate, like Nazis.

I don’t see how you can draw any of the apologies you drew, since no one is advocating trespassing inside the private property of the abortion clinic, committing harassment, assault or other crimes against persons entering it, or obstructing entry to it.

Furthermore the government of the UK really ought to follow the example of the US and begin to phase out abortion. This legislation represents a huge step backwards for Britain after the Supreme Court voted to rescind its earlier failure of judicial activism.
 
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The Liturgist

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I wouldn't take that seriously. Besides being impossible to enforce such a rule, it's clearly a Satire site. Like The Babylon Bee.

You can tell just by this image on that same page.
''LOVING JESUS WITH A SLIGHT AIR OF SUPREMACY SINCE AD 597''.^_^
CofEAirOfSuperiority-208x300.jpg

Unfortunately, the article is correct, and was reported on by the BBC, but I prefer a news source less hostile to traditional Christianity, despite the amusing joke about the Church of England (which is actually much older; the British church had survived the Barbarian invasion but was scattered and disorganized; what St. Augustine of Canterbury, not to be confused with St. Augustine of Hippo, did, was reorganize it and set about converting the Angles who had conquered Britain from an area in modern day Schleswig Holstein called Anglia. Later, the Jutes and then the Danes, comprising all three major tribes of modern day Denmark (likewise, Sweden had the Danes of Scania, the Svea, the Geats and the Lapplanders, who are also in Norway along with the Norsk and Finland along with the Finns, who are related to the Karelians and Estonians).
 
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The Liturgist

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I wouldn't take that seriously. Besides being impossible to enforce such a rule, it's clearly a Satire site. Like The Babylon Bee.

Again, just to reiterate, the News Article I linked to was not a satire.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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BobRyan

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Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights,

Luke 21:25 “There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting from fear and the expectation of the things that are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

from: WATCH | Rare Election Eclipse: The blood moon lunar eclipse occurs Tuesday

"Election Day on Tuesday will be one for the record books. According to data scientist Tony Rice, this is the first total lunar eclipse to occur on election day as we know it, something that won't happen again until 2394. Everyone from coast to coast across the U.S. will have the opportunity to see a total lunar eclipse that occurs in the early morning hours on Tuesday, Nov. 8."​

My, my, my, what an astrology/new age observation. Interesting.

Not sure what you are thinking -- but if you are coming to a forum like "Christian Forums" and assuming that everyone here considers the Bible to be false... you may need to review your logic ... a bit. At Christian Forums that kind of wild assumption is not 'a given' among the readers in general.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Not sure what you are thinking -- but if you are coming to a forum like "Christian Forums" and assuming that everyone here considers the Bible to be false... you may need to review your logic ... a bit. At Christian Forums that kind of wild assumption is not 'a given' among the readers in general.

I’m just saying that it’s mighty new age/pagan of you to be looking at the moon, interpreting the meaning/appearance of it, what it means spiritually, and referring to it by a name (blood moon) given to lunar eclipses for the first time in 1817 in a book on astrology, birth charts, and divination.

I don’t have a problem with it, mind you… I did my own spiritual work during the eclipse since it was a wild one. I just find it quite progressive and witchy of you.
 
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BobRyan

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Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights,

Luke 21:25 “There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting from fear and the expectation of the things that are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

from: WATCH | Rare Election Eclipse: The blood moon lunar eclipse occurs Tuesday
"Election Day on Tuesday will be one for the record books. According to data scientist Tony Rice, this is the first total lunar eclipse to occur on election day as we know it, something that won't happen again until 2394. Everyone from coast to coast across the U.S. will have the opportunity to see a total lunar eclipse that occurs in the early morning hours on Tuesday, Nov. 8."​

I’m just saying that it’s mighty new age/pagan of you to be looking at the moon,

So the Bible says the moon is also for signs in Gen 1:14 - and your argument is that it would be "pagan" to read the Bible and accept what is says? Seriously?

I just find it quite progressive and witchy of you.

Is it your view that the Bible is "pagan and witchy"??
 
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Tropical Wilds

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So the Bible says the moon is also for signs in Gen 1:7 - and your argument is that it would be "pagan" to read the Bible and accept what is says? Seriously?

Pagan to read and accept the Bible? Not necessarily.

Pagan to read the Bible, practice astrology as a result of your interpretation, assign meaning and spiritual significance to a lunar event? Very much so.

You were literally doing the same thing as countless Wiccans, pagans, witches, lunar-influenced religions, and new age persons during the eclipse. Looking at an astronomical event and making it an astrological one in order to deepen your understanding of your faith and God. I don’t care, it doesn’t bother me, but I found it interesting.

Is it your view that the Bible is "pagan and witchy"??

You really want me to answer that?

And FWIW, Genesis 1:7 does not say the moon is for signs.
 
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chevyontheriver

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What I think is an interesting thought experiment, would be if a Christian town or area sought to set up the same. Only instead of protecting abortion (the left's most sacred sacrament), it protects Christianity from blasphemy. Let's say within a certain radius no blasphemy is permitted. The same sorts of people who would scream that they should be free from Christian intrusion into their lives would not make the argument that Christians should be free from blasphemy in their lives.
There are several cities and towns that are declaring themselves sanctuary cities, and are banning abortion within their corporate limits. This does not conflict with any sort of speech but does shut down the commerce of abortion.
 
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Think...

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What I think is an interesting thought experiment, would be if a Christian town or area sought to set up the same. Only instead of protecting abortion (the left's most sacred sacrament), it protects Christianity from blasphemy. Let's say within a certain radius no blasphemy is permitted. The same sorts of people who would scream that they should be free from Christian intrusion into their lives would not make the argument that Christians should be free from blasphemy in their lives.
And Bible verses and passages would be posted everywhere and spoken aloud on speakers all throughout that area so that anyone and everyone with the slightest demonic influence wouldn't be able to stand even walking through there and God's Light would shine upon that area like a heavenly star in a sea of blackness.

Hallelujah!
 
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