Presbyterianism and the Holy Spirit

[Zelda_Freak]

I have two halves of a question. The first half is about theory(theology) and the second half is about practice.
I attend a Presbyterian church but I do not identify as Presbyterian.

What do Presbyterians believe about the Holy Spirit? Who do they believe it is? What do they think is important about it? How do they think it is (or is not) relevant or important to Christians today?

And for the second half of this question..

Recently, I was in a discussion about the Holy Spirit that was lead by a Presbyterian minister. During the conversation, I said to the leader something along the lines of- "So basically, we don't really understand the Holy Spirit and it's complicated and we don't really understand Who It is so we just kind of don't really bother?" And they basically confirmed that. I've seen this theme other times in the Presbyterian church.

Why don't some Presbyterians seem to talk about the Holy Spirit that much? Why do they sometimes downplay it to make it seem almost even less important than the Creator God and Jesus? Why do they sometimes not "bother" with it? Why is it often not taught about? Why do few seem to understand it?

I am only speaking out of my own experience. I'm not trying to generalize or say all Presbyterians are like this. I'm not accusing Presbyterians. I'm just asking honestly.
Thanks!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

What do Presbyterians believe about the Holy Spirit?

He is the third member of the Trinity. He is God. He convicts the world of sin. He empowers the Christian. He points to Christ and His work. He illumines the minds of believers.

What do they think is important about it?

He (not it) is a person of the Godhead, and see above

How do they think it is (or is not) relevant or important to Christians today?

He is as vital as the Father or Son. You can't have one without the others.

Who do they believe it is?

He is the third member of the Trinity.

Why don't some Presbyterians seem to talk about the Holy Spirit that much?

We do, and in the same proportion that scriptures do. He is the quite member of the Trinity. Very little is written about Him in contrast with the Father & Son; therefore, there literally is less to talk about.

Why do they sometimes downplay it to make it seem almost even less important than the Creator God and Jesus?

The entire Trinity was involved with creation. See Genesis 1 & John 1. Also, see above.

Why do they sometimes not "bother" with it?

What does that mean? We "bother" with Him, each time we pray. We pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, through the Holy Spirit.

Why do few seem to understand it?

Very little is written about Him in contrast with the Father & Son; therefore, He (not it) is more difficult to understand, leaving some mystery.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Growing up in a liberal United Presbyterian Church, I rarely heard any mention of the Holy Spirit or of spiritual things in general. The primary topic of sermons was transforming society to a Christian ideal via liberal political means. We were taught that there were no such things as demons or angels. Thus, the Holy Spirit was generally ignored, although occasional lip service was paid to traditional creeds (specifically the Apostles Creed). I think the general belief concernng the Holy Spirit was one of agnosticism - there might be a Holy Spirit, but we don't have any hard evidence to make a case for or against.

 

[Zelda_Freak]

He is the third member of the Trinity. He is God. He convicts the world of sin. He empowers the Christian. He points to Christ and His work. He illumines the minds of believers.

He (not it) is a person of the Godhead.

He is as vital as the Father or Son. You can't have one without the others.

He is the third member of the Trinity.

The entire Trinity was involved with creation.

This is true. I agree with all this.

We do, and in the same proportion that scriptures do.

What does that mean? We "bother" with Him, each time we pray. We pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, through the Holy Spirit.

This is true I'm my experience too, just not very strongly.

He is the quite member of the Trinity. Very little is written about Him in contrast with the Father & Son; therefore there is literally less to talk about.

Very little is written about Him in contrast with the Father & Son; therefore, He (not it) is more difficult to understand, leaving some mystery.

You're right, there not a lot written about the Holy Spirit. In some of my experience, I have found that sometimes all that is preached is the fact that the Holy Spirit is mysterious, and not much is said about how the Holy Spirit is important in our lives still. I'm not saying that's what all Presbyterians believe or what is preached.

He (not it)

You are right that the Holy Spirit is not an it. I used the word it as to not assume that we can comprehend the gender of the Holy Spirit or of God.

Thank you for your answer

 

[Zelda_Freak]

Growing up in a liberal United Presbyterian Church, I rarely heard any mention of the Holy Spirit or of spiritual things in general. The primary topic of sermons was transforming society to a Christian ideal via liberal political means. We were taught that there were no such things as demons or angels. Thus, the Holy Spirit was generally ignored, although occasional lip service was paid to traditional creeds (specifically the Apostles Creed). I think the general belief concernng the Holy Spirit was one of agnosticism - there might be a Holy Spirit, but we don't have any hard evidence to make a case for or against.

This sounds very similar to my experience. It is sad to me that some churches don't pay much attention to one-third of the Trinity.

 

[Albion]

FWIW, different denominations tend to emphasize different qualities of the persons of the Holy Trinity, but this doesn't mean that they hold contrasting beliefs about the persons or don't believe in all of them.

Lutherans, for instance, are said to emphasize Jesus, Presbyterians and Reformed emphasize the sovereignty of the Father, and Pentecostals stress the Holy Spirit. Each of them draws its perspective from the particular issue, the needed reform, that that denomination historically called the Christian world to appreciate.

 

[Hoghead1]

I grew up Presbyterian and am PCUSA, though I am also a member of three other churches as well. Historically, the Holy Spirit has been the least-elaborated member of the Trinity. Early Christians were often called ditheists, rather than tritheists. The early fathers wrote that very little has been said about the Spirit and that many are unsure what to believe about it. The reason the Holy Spirit got such little attention is this: The Holy Spirit refers to God as present in ourselves and our world. Because of the influx of Hellenic metaphysics, the early church had great trouble with the notion that God could be present. Hence, the Arian controversy and the Council of Nicaea. These were almost exclusively preoccupied with how God could be present in Christ. They were having such a struggle with the Second person that they rarely got around to the Third person. If you are interested, I can provide more information here. I did my doctoral dissertation in pneumatology.

Regarding churches teaching doctrine, you made a very good point. Many churches today have fallen into what some call a cowboy theology and faith. Yu don't need to study doctrines, you don't need to study the church fathers, you don't need to bother with higher education, you can be and should be as anti-intellectual as you can. I hate to say it, but that same attitude is very prevalent in this forum. It seems many churches have collapsed into glorified social clubs and welfare agencies. Now, whenever an ethical issue comes up, especially a controversial one, then everyone is all ears. But it has to be something really controversial, the Viet Nam War, gays and lesbians, etc.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

This is true. I agree with all this.


This is true I'm my experience too, just not very strongly.


You're right, there not a lot written about the Holy Spirit. In some of my experience, I have found that sometimes all that is preached is the fact that the Holy Spirit is mysterious, and not much is said about how the Holy Spirit is important in our lives still. I'm not saying that's what all Presbyterians believe or what is preached.



You are right that the Holy Spirit is not an it. I used the word it as to not assume that we can comprehend the gender of the Holy Spirit or of God.

Thank you for your answer

Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as *He*. See the following Scriptures...
John 15:26, 16:8, and 16:13

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I grew up Presbyterian and am PCUSA, though I am also a member of three other churches as well. Historically, the Holy Spirit has been the least-elaborated member of the Trinity. Early Christians were often called ditheists, rather than tritheists. The early fathers wrote that very little has been said about the Spirit and that many are unsure what to believe about it. The reason the Holy Spirit got such little attention is this: The Holy Spirit refers to God as present in ourselves and our world. Because of the influx of Hellenic metaphysics, the early church had great trouble with the notion that God could be present. Hence, the Arian controversy and the Council of Nicaea. These were almost exclusively preoccupied with how God could be present in Christ. They were having such a struggle with the Second person that they rarely got around to the Third person. If you are interested, I can provide more information here. I did my doctoral dissertation in pneumatology.

Regarding churches teaching doctrine, you made a very good point. Many churches today have fallen into what some call a cowboy theology and faith. Yu don't need to study doctrines, you don't need to study the church fathers, you don't need to bother with higher education, you can be and should be as anti-intellectual as you can. I hate to say it, but that same attitude is very prevalent in this forum. It seems many churches have collapsed into glorified social clubs and welfare agencies. Now, whenever an ethical issue comes up, especially a controversial one, then everyone is all ears. But it has to be something really controversial, the Viet Nam War, gays and lesbians, etc.

Oh, I got a sample of your theology though and it does in places contradict Scripture.
God gave it to the children and has hidden it from the wise, says I Corinthians which in a later chapter say, if anyone is wise in this world, he should become a fool so that he may become wise. Scripture is meant to be read by ALL and caters to ALL individually. It is precious, holy and awesome...it answers the questions of modern man as well as it did the ancients.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

FWIW, different denominations tend to emphasize different qualities of the persons of the Holy Trinity, but this doesn't mean that they hold contrasting beliefs about the persons or don't believe in all of them.

Lutherans, for instance, are said to emphasize Jesus, Presbyterians and Reformed emphasize the sovereignty of the Father, and Pentecostals stress the Holy Spirit. Each of them draws its perspective from the particular issue, the needed reform, that that denomination historically called the Christian world to appreciate.

Lutherans believe one receives the Holy Spirit upon baptism as demonstrated in the book of Acts and as proclaimed by John the Baptist...do Presbyterians believe so as well??

 

[Albion]

Lutherans believe one receives the Holy Spirit upon baptism as demonstrated in the book of Acts and as proclaimed by John the Baptist...do Presbyterians believe so as well??

I believe that they do.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Lutherans believe one receives the Holy Spirit upon baptism as demonstrated in the book of Acts and as proclaimed by John the Baptist...do Presbyterians believe so as well??

No sir. We do not.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

No sir. We do not.

what do they believe the work of the Holy Spirit is in the lives of a Christian?...open question to all Presbyterians.

 

[Albion]

No sir. We do not.

From www.presbyterianmission.org

"5. The coming of God as Holy Spirit into our lives is always and simultaneously both individual and corporate. There is no such thing as a lone Christian, living in his or her own relation with God in splendid isolation.

The Holy Spirit always comes to us and works within us through and with the Scriptures, the sacraments,.."

 

[throughfiierytrial]

From www.presbyterianmission.org

"5. The coming of God as Holy Spirit into our lives is always and simultaneously both individual and corporate. There is no such thing as a lone Christian, living in his or her own relation with God in splendid isolation.

The Holy Spirit always comes to us and works within us through and with the Scriptures, the sacraments,.."

Thank you...and baptism is a sacrament in the view of the Presbyterian Church...correct?

 

[ml5363]

No sir. We do not.

This explains ur responses to my posts the other day...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

From www.presbyterianmission.org

"5. The coming of God as Holy Spirit into our lives is always and simultaneously both individual and corporate. There is no such thing as a lone Christian, living in his or her own relation with God in splendid isolation.

The Holy Spirit always comes to us and works within us through and with the Scriptures, the sacraments,.."

Wrong Presbyterians.

 

[Albion]

Well, this was the question: "do Presbyterians believe so as well??"

We've established that the answer is "yes," although you've pointed out that some Presbyterians do not.

I can really say, but perhaps "throughfireytrial" would be interested in knowing which Presbyterian bodies accept the statement given and which do not.

 

[Dave-W]

What do Presbyterians believe about the Holy Spirit? Who do they believe it is? What do they think is important about it? How do they think it is (or is not) relevant or important to Christians today?

I will give you a link to some friends of mine. They have been teaching about the Holy Spirit in Presbyterian churches since the 1960s. they are called Presbyterian Reform Ministries International.

http://PRMI.org

They have a series of congregational educational seminars and workshops called Ignite and Dunamis. They have also published a number of books, some based on their Dunamis series.
I highly recommend "Receiving the Power," "The Collapse of the Brass Heaven," and "Let Jesus Heal Your Hidden Wounds."

http://prmi.org/resources

Note: there is a chapter in Receiving the Power (which is also covered in detail in their Dunamis seminar) on the 2-fold ministry of the Holy Spirit: Spirit Within and Spirit Upon. They are very distinct all thru scripture; both testaments.

 

[Zelda_Freak]

I will give you a link to some friends of mine. They have been teaching about the Holy Spirit in Presbyterian churches since the 1960s. they are called Presbyterian Reform Ministries International.

http://PRMI.org

They have a series of congregational educational seminars and workshops called Ignite and Dunamis. They have also published a number of books, some based on their Dunamis series.
I highly recommend "Receiving the Power," "The Collapse of the Brass Heaven," and "Let Jesus Heal Your Hidden Wounds."

http://prmi.org/resources

Note: there is a chapter in Receiving the Power (which is also covered in detail in their Dunamis seminar) on the 2-fold ministry of the Holy Spirit: Spirit Within and Spirit Upon. They are very distinct all thru scripture; both testaments.

Thanks! I'll check that out.