Prayers TO the dead

[har_habayit]

Hi everyone. I was reading some akathists on a local Orthodox church's website, and there are so many powerful prayers. I think Orthodoxy is completely overwhelming for a Protestant. I don't think I could touch 0.0001% of anything Orthodoxy has to offer in this lifetime. However, I have a specific question regarding a prayer practice of the Orthodox.

I noticed in the akathists devoted to specific persons that we pray TO the departed saint. Sometimes things are even said like, "save us." I have long felt that praying for the dead, whether believers or unbelievers, is completely acceptable. It doesn't hurt, and in some mystical way, God maybe answers those prayers.

In Orthodoxy though, I find that there are very often prayers TO the saints, not FOR the dead. I understand veneration and even prayer to the Virgin Mary. I think she was the most elevated human who ever lived apart from Christ. I guess that defeats my whole objection. Perhaps I just get a little alarmed when I see akathists where we are praying to specific departed saints and asking them to "save us" and also saying, "we praise you." I just don't understand because for me this comes very close to idolatry and/or a violation of the first commandment.

Can someone help me to understand how it is I can say to a departed saint, "I praise you" and not feel in my spirit that I am doing something wrong?

 

[ArmyMatt]

prayer just means to make a petition (like in Shakespeare) in English. so it’s not idolatry since no offering or sacrifice is made to the saint.

we’d also say that since they are alive in Christ, they are praying for us before His throne so to ask them to do anything for us is like when you ask friends and family to do something for you. and of course, however the saint responds is only by God’s will and for His purpose.

and lastly, St Paul says he has become all things to all men that he might save some. so the word “save” isn’t the issue as much as the context.

 

[All4Christ]

Hi everyone. I was reading some akathists on a local Orthodox church's website, and there are so many powerful prayers. I think Orthodoxy is completely overwhelming for a Protestant. I don't think I could touch 0.0001% of anything Orthodoxy has to offer in this lifetime. However, I have a specific question regarding a prayer practice of the Orthodox.

I noticed in the akathists devoted to specific persons that we pray TO the departed saint. Sometimes things are even said like, "save us." I have long felt that praying for the dead, whether believers or unbelievers, is completely acceptable. It doesn't hurt, and in some mystical way, God maybe answers those prayers.

In Orthodoxy though, I find that there are very often prayers TO the saints, not FOR the dead. I understand veneration and even prayer to the Virgin Mary. I think she was the most elevated human who ever lived apart from Christ. I guess that defeats my whole objection. Perhaps I just get a little alarmed when I see akathists where we are praying to specific departed saints and asking them to "save us" and also saying, "we praise you." I just don't understand because for me this comes very close to idolatry and/or a violation of the first commandment.

Can someone help me to understand how it is I can say to a departed saint, "I praise you" and not feel in my spirit that I am doing something wrong?

I echo what @ArmyMatt said, but I also would add…

The first time I petitioned the saints, I.e. “prayed”, especially to the Theotokos (Mary), I prayed to God first - please guide me, and if this is not right, please let me know so that I can follow your Word and forgive me if I shouldn’t do this. I felt peace, rightness, and a sense of all being the way it should be.

There still are things I don’t fully understand 15 years after chrismation, but I trust that Scripture, the Church, the Saints and Church Fathers are guided by God. I pray for understanding and guidance, which typically brings me peace about it.

It also helped me to realize that nothing is through the power of the Saints. Everything is done by the Grace and Power of God. The Saints are alive in Christ, and those in Heaven constantly lift up prayers for us - but everything is through the Power of God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There still are things I don’t fully understand 15 years after chrismation, but I trust that Scripture, the Church, the Saints and Church Fathers are guided by God. I pray for understanding and guidance, which typically brings me peace about it.

this

 

[Chesterton]

prayer just means to make a petition (like in Shakespeare) in English. so it’s not idolatry since no offering or sacrifice is made to the saint.

You don't even have to go back to Shakespeare. In my state at least, it's still used that way in law today. The last paragraph of a legal pleading will be titled PRAYER; where you summarize what you're asking the court to do.

I think Orthodoxy is completely overwhelming for a Protestant. I don't think I could touch 0.0001% of anything Orthodoxy has to offer in this lifetime.

As a former Protestant I agree. Orthodoxy Christianity is rich, and deep, and wide. It's like an ocean and after all these years I feel as if I've only just stuck my big toe in. It's wonderful.

 

[har_habayit]

You don't even have to go back to Shakespeare. In my state at least, it's still used that way in law today. The last paragraph of a legal pleading will be titled PRAYER; where you summarize what you're asking the court to do.

As a former Protestant I agree. Orthodoxy Christianity is rich, and deep, and wide. It's like an ocean and after all these years I feel as if I've only just stuck my big toe in. It's wonderful.

You know sir, I went to Liturgy this morning, and witnessed a beautiful baptism, chrismation, and first Eucharist for a young catechumen. I am just so, so happy to be there. Afterwards I walked up and thanked the priest. I don't even know if thanking him is odd. I don't really care. I just want to express my gratitude to him for such a beautiful "service", even though I know it's not his doing.

When I was briefly with him, he said, "so, when are you going to do the same thing"? The same thing as the catechumen. I've never had an Orthodox priest say that to me. Usually they exercise a lot of caution and even discourage me from making a hasty decision. Maybe this Father believes I am "ready", or at least that I am excited to be at liturgy.

My answer to his question about when I will be baptized, chrismated, and partake of my first Eucharist was, "a long time." I am sure he probably respected this answer, because I am not in a hurry. I think I have so, so much to learn about this beautiful Church, and because it's so deep, I could justify going to liturgy and learning for the next 40 years and refusing to actually join the church formally. The truth is, I will probably never feel ready, worthy, or like I am not being presumptuous or irreverent for joining such a beautiful group of people and such a beautiful faith.

I say that to say that even though I told him, "a long time", the truth is that I would like to start the process of joining right away, but my response reflected, unbeknownst to me, that I am aware that this deep end pool will take decades to navigate.

 

[Lukaris]

You know sir, I went to Liturgy this morning, and witnessed a beautiful baptism, chrismation, and first Eucharist for a young catechumen. I am just so, so happy to be there. Afterwards I walked up and thanked the priest. I don't even know if thanking him is odd. I don't really care. I just want to express my gratitude to him for such a beautiful "service", even though I know it's not his doing.

When I was briefly with him, he said, "so, when are you going to do the same thing"? The same thing as the catechumen. I've never had an Orthodox priest say that to me. Usually they exercise a lot of caution and even discourage me from making a hasty decision. Maybe this Father believes I am "ready", or at least that I am excited to be at liturgy.

My answer to his question about when I will be baptized, chrismated, and partake of my first Eucharist was, "a long time." I am sure he probably respected this answer, because I am not in a hurry. I think I have so, so much to learn about this beautiful Church, and because it's so deep, I could justify going to liturgy and learning for the next 40 years and refusing to actually join the church formally. The truth is, I will probably never feel ready, worthy, or like I am not being presumptuous or irreverent for joining such a beautiful group of people and such a beautiful faith.

I say that to say that even though I told him, "a long time", the truth is that I would like to start the process of joining right away, but my response reflected, unbeknownst to me, that I am aware that this deep end pool will take decades to navigate.

I believe the priest is encouraging you but not trying to rush you either. The thing is I would say the complexity factor to Orthodoxy is often what has transpired through history when conditions caused tension in understanding the faith implicitly versus explicitly.

A modern example of what I mean could develop with the gender issue. I mean the Bible is clear in Genesis and the Gospel that we are created male & female and that has been basically implicitly understood ( taken for granted really ) by people in general throughout history. Now we may need to affirm this as an article of faith with wisdom and compassion.

While there is much to learn there is much that is basic & ultimately what is most important. Much of our living daily faith is keeping the Lord’s commandments, living these with alms giving, prayer, & fasting ( Matthew 6:1-18). Fasting is of course where a major example of where faith journey is involved and should begin, I believe, more so after chrismation. It is better to be understood and then engaged. Even at that though, a major portion of it is observation of a basically vegan diet on Wednesday & Friday, & abstaining after midnight to before Sunday liturgy. Individual health concerns are always to be taken into consideration of course. Obviously this is a talk with your priest matter.

We have the Nicene Creed to know which is our essential faith. A decent prayer book is really advised to have since info on sacraments, fasting & feast days will be provided also. There are pocket prayer books available.

While their is complexity of detail within the Divine Liturgy of course. There is a basic framework in which our one parish priest told us which is the Liturgy of the word ( hymns & scriptures) usually culminating midway with the homily. The next part is basically leading up to the Eucharist after the homily ( the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, penitential prayer etc. within this).

Honestly, I believe an inquirer or catechumen can have much of what is basically needed from their Bible and a good prayer book. I believe reading the ancient church manual, The Didache, is also very helpful; some scholars say it is from before 100 AD & is only about 10 printed pages ( & easily found online).

Didache

This is just my 2 cents and I believe knowing the essential basics like this help to understand where our external aspects of worship fall into place & experience (when to stand, veneration of icons etc. )

I know when I first observed the Liturgy, a strong sense of Solomon leading the assembly ( 1 Kings 8:1-65 etc.) occurred to me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You don't even have to go back to Shakespeare. In my state at least, it's still used that way in law today. The last paragraph of a legal pleading will be titled PRAYER; where you summarize what you're asking the court to do.

that’s interesting

 

[ArmyMatt]

The truth is, I will probably never feel ready, worthy, or like I am not being presumptuous or irreverent for joining such a beautiful group of people and such a beautiful faith.

I have been Orthodox since 2006 and I still don’t.

 

[Chesterton]

You know sir, I went to Liturgy this morning, and witnessed a beautiful baptism, chrismation, and first Eucharist for a young catechumen. I am just so, so happy to be there. Afterwards I walked up and thanked the priest. I don't even know if thanking him is odd. I don't really care. I just want to express my gratitude to him for such a beautiful "service", even though I know it's not his doing.

When I was briefly with him, he said, "so, when are you going to do the same thing"? The same thing as the catechumen. I've never had an Orthodox priest say that to me. Usually they exercise a lot of caution and even discourage me from making a hasty decision. Maybe this Father believes I am "ready", or at least that I am excited to be at liturgy.

My answer to his question about when I will be baptized, chrismated, and partake of my first Eucharist was, "a long time." I am sure he probably respected this answer, because I am not in a hurry. I think I have so, so much to learn about this beautiful Church, and because it's so deep, I could justify going to liturgy and learning for the next 40 years and refusing to actually join the church formally. The truth is, I will probably never feel ready, worthy, or like I am not being presumptuous or irreverent for joining such a beautiful group of people and such a beautiful faith.

I say that to say that even though I told him, "a long time", the truth is that I would like to start the process of joining right away, but my response reflected, unbeknownst to me, that I am aware that this deep end pool will take decades to navigate.

Well I was an inquirer a little over two years before I joined. A friend of mine and his wife took five years. Forty years might be a bit much though...our Lord is returning someday y'know.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well I was an inquirer a little over two years before I joined. A friend of mine and his wife took five years. Forty years might be a bit much though...our Lord is returning someday y'know.

indeed, plus you never stop learning. while there is nothing new, God does eternally take us deeper into His mystery.

 

[har_habayit]

Is prayer (petition) to the saints required to become an Orthodox Christian? If I do not want to do it, should I leave the process of becoming a catechumen?

I want to ask my priest but our parish is still looking for a full-time priest. The priest we currently have drives from two hours away to preside at liturgy, so it's not feasible to meet with him.

What are the doctrines that are considered absolutely essential to become an Orthodox Christian?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is prayer (petition) to the saints required to become an Orthodox Christian? If I do not want to do it, should I leave the process of becoming a catechumen?

well, it’s pretty inescapable in our services, so if you are Orthodox you will do it. but I have to ask, if you believe they are praying for you, why not ask them to pray for you? if the prayer of a righteous man availeth much, who is more righteous than the saints?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What are the doctrines that are considered absolutely essential to become an Orthodox Christian?

we don’t think that way. Orthodoxy is a way of life, and you either struggle to live it or you don’t.

 

[har_habayit]

Thanks for your replies ArmyMatt. I was raised to believe that we petition the Father directly through the Son. "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." I just don't see a lot of evidence from the Bible that people were petitioning saints, but I'm not going to go down that route, simply because I don't believe in sola scriptura. The Bible belongs in the context of the early church who canonized it, knew it, and practiced it.

However, St. Paul does say in his first letter to Timothy: "there is one God and there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

 

[ArmyMatt]

I was raised to believe that we petition the Father directly through the Son. "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

sure, but to only do that would mean we shouldn’t ask each other for prayers either.

However, St. Paul does say in his first letter to Timothy: "there is one God and there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

agreed, but prayer is intercession, not Christ’s mediation. that’s something else.

 

[har_habayit]

sure, but to only do that would mean we shouldn’t ask each other for prayers either.


agreed, but prayer is intercession, not Christ’s mediation. that’s something else.

I agree with these points.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I agree with these points.

so, just me trying to figure out your POV, do you have an issue with praying for people when they as or asking others to pray for you? because that’s what we ask the saints.

 

[har_habayit]

so, just me trying to figure out your POV, do you have an issue with praying for people when they as or asking others to pray for you? because that’s what we ask the saints.

I don't have an issue with praying for others when they ask me. In fact, I feel it is cruel to not to. When someone asks me to pray for them, I make a concerted effort to pray for them in my own time, and not just to say or to agree to pray for them when they ask me to but not actually doing it.

I have never had a problem asking others to pray for me, either, though I suspect I am more reluctant to share prayer requests than many others, maybe because I believe they won't actually pray for me or because of my pride.

I also understand the logic that if these people are already praying for me, it's good to petition them, since they are in fact closer to the throne room of God. I actually get that. I believe it's ok to simply petition the Father through the name of Jesus, but I get the logical discrepancy with that because if I really believe that God is enough, I don't need to ask for anyone else's prayers, especially those on earth who are not yet glorified and in the presence of the Lord like the departed martyrs and saints.

In fact, the book of revelation indicates that the saints and martyrs do pray to God, even in heaven, regarding people on earth, and God answers their prayers.

I would have an issue with writing that says something like, "we praise you" or "save us" to a saint, like in an akathist, where I saw some borderline idolatrous sort of phrases in there, but I admit I need to look a little more closely before accusing anyone of blasphemy.

This is where I am reading the akathists. The ones at the bottom addressed to God the Father seem the most appropriate. It's just something I'm trying to work out and I really appreciate you helping me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would have an issue with writing that says something like, "we praise you" or "save us" to a saint, like in an akathist, where I saw some borderline idolatrous sort of phrases in there, but I admit I need to look a little more closely before accusing anyone of blasphemy.

but St Paul says he saves folks. idolatry is when you make a sacrificial offering to a creature as opposed to the Creator. none of those statements are idolatrous.