Praise to the man.... Is it unorthodox cult worship?

[williamgramsmith]

If by boring you mean intimidating - then yes, yes it is.

I don't HAVE a religion - I don't FOLLOW a religion - I read MY Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to guide me - I don't belong to a denomination - I don't follow any doctrines - I don't belong to a church.

Most people assume that I DO have seminary under my belt but everything I know was not taught to me by ANYONE on this planet...

Can you say the same?

To give you an idea, prior to March 21, 2012 I knew NOTHING about the Bible, NOTHING about God, NOTHING about theology, I knew NOTHING. NO ONE brought be to God - not a Church - not another Christian - NO ONE.

Today I go toe to toe with pastors and hold my ground. Do you really think that was the work of a "man-made" religion.

You read a "christian" website, christian words, thus you think like them.

You're not just reading the Bible. You don't live in a box.

 

[drstevej]

You read a "christian" website, christian words, thus you think like them.

You're not just reading the Bible. You don't live in a box.

I am impressed with her biblical knowledge.

She reads your posts and doesn't think like you. Hmmmmmm.......

 

[williamgramsmith]

Yet you aren't impressed that I read the Bible for myself while being in many and no religions and seeing for myself that they didn't fit the Bible.

She in contrast just reads the Bible and hangs out with certain kinds of Christians reading only their works, and somehow she's "Biblical" in your mind.

In other words, she hangs out with you people, and you for some reason don't wonder why she thinks like you.

 

[drstevej]

She said she does not attend a church. She seems like a very independent thinker. Too bad she didn't feel the "testimony" that you demand.

 

[williamgramsmith]

She post's on "Christian" forums, read their/your words, likely reads their/your articles also.
One doesn't have to attend a church to get it from your words.

I don't "demand" anything.... I'm just stating the facts. She doesn't live in a box.

 

[drstevej]

She post's on "Christian" forums, read their/your words, likely reads their/your articles also.
One doesn't have to attend a church to get it from your words.

You have more than twice the posts she has. I assume you read our posts before you respond.

 

[xXMikHaelXx]

She in contrast just reads the Bible and hangs out with certain kinds of Christians reading only their works, and somehow she's "Biblical" in your mind.

In other words, she hangs out with you people, and you for some reason don't wonder why she thinks like you.

You misunderstand me - I was not a Christian at all - I didn't hang out with Christians - I still don't hang out with Christians.

The way I like to explain it is this - I had a Paul experience.

On March 21, 2012 - I WAS CALLED

"I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."

But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

I went through trial and tribulation and that part was rough but then I started to be taught. When I got through my trials I started up with street ministry. The Bible wasn't even used at first.

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephasb and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

I began to consult other men of faith and the Bible so that I could have verification of that the Gospel I preached was correct.

I came to this site with my own views FIRMLY in place. I would like to note that I'm not always liked on this site - actually I spend a lot of time debating fellow Christians - so they certainly aren't influencing me.

I DID read the BOM to see if there was anything in there that did line up with what I was taught and there wasn't - The teachings I received were straight Bible, even though the Bible hadn't been used at first. If anything the Bible was simply confirmation for me.

I know the Holy Spirit is behind all of this - My family was able to witness my transformation... over the past year I have become a completely different person with more knowledge about the Bible than seems possible. If the BOM is correct - why was nothing I was taught lining up with it.

I DID give it a chance - I can't stress that enough.

 

[xXMikHaelXx]

I guess my biggest question for you is - Why do people have to be ministered to with Mormon material to become a Mormon?

There are instances of people in the Muslim faith being called to Christianity - in places where people don't even have access to ministers or a Bible. Why aren't they called to Mormonism?

 

[drstevej]

I DID give it a chance - I can't stress that enough.

I believe you.

 

[williamgramsmith]

I'm not going to criticize your conversion to the Gospel or to Christ.

I'll just say that everyone has their own judgment. Lot's of people create religions from reading the Bible, but it ends up being their own religion, even if they don't create a religion, it's their own.

Me, when I read the Bible, God led me to see Mormonism in it, and because I was actually in various religions, it was easy to see all the false conclusions, and then when I came upon the LDS Church, it was the only religion that fully fit the Bible. Not just mostly either, but in every way.

Anyway, I'm happy for your change..... I don't doubt it was of God.
Just be aware that not every judgment one makes through their own understanding is the same as being of God. I've seen it too much to know most of the time it's not.

So, I guess we just disagree.... I read the Bible, and outside of the Davidic verses that testify of Christ I see verses praising Prophets, but I guess you don't, and so you judge us LDS, that's fine. I've tried to show from both scripture, history, and logic what the whole truth is, but if you don't want to understand it, that's fine.

Just please don't tell us we worship a man, or a Prophet, simply because we revere him for his restoration work, no differently than how Moses or others are revered especially by their people. We worship God the Father, through his Son, period.

Take care....

 

[xXMikHaelXx]

I'm not going to criticize your conversion to the Gospel or to Christ.

I'll just say that everyone has their own judgment. Lot's of people create religions from reading the Bible, but it ends up being their own religion, even if they don't create a religion, it's their own.

Me, when I read the Bible, God led me to see Mormonism in it, and because I was actually in various religions, it was easy to see all the false conclusions, and then when I came upon the LDS Church, it was the only religion that fully fit the Bible. Not just mostly either, but in every way.

So by reading the Bible you were led to Mormonism without a Mormon or Mormon texts being used? Once again, I think you misunderstand what I have gone through. I knew nothing about Christianity or its theology, I had no idea what it meant to be saved, I wouldn't have been able to tell you much about the Gospel. I was given the Gospel I preach and the Theology I use, without the use of the Bible. It wasn't until I was solid on the beliefs given to me that I picked up a Bible and compared notes. If I had been taught anything from the Mormon Bible I would have certainly accepted it but nothing in the Holy Spirit taught me lined up with Mormonism.

If your god is the correct god wouldn't he have offered me HIS teachings, not the teachings of Christianity. I was a blank canvas - he could have if he wanted to - and I would have accepted it.

Anyway, I'm happy for your change..... I don't doubt it was of God.
Just be aware that not every judgment one makes through their own understanding is the same as being of God. I've seen it too much to know most of the time it's not.

I have very few judgments of my own. God does correct me when I am wrong and guide me to the correct answers - if I'm REALLY wrong there may be a lesson attached in the form of a trial but I am very directed in everything I do. Even the wrong assumptions are part of the things He does through me. So even when I am wrong - I'm wrong because He allows me to be wrong because He wants to use it.

So, I guess we just disagree.... I read the Bible, and outside of the Davidic verses that testify of Christ I see verses praising Prophets, but I guess you don't, and so you judge us LDS, that's fine. I've tried to show from both scripture, history, and logic what the whole truth is, but if you don't want to understand it, that's fine.

You are correct - I do judge you. My function is very much geared to being a "sheep dog". This is part of my design, this is part of my discipleship - I was made to be this way. Mormons twist the scripture of My God to praise theirs or to justify themselves. They skirt close enough to the Bible that they are able to pick off sheep - why would a sheepdog be complaisant about that?

Just please don't tell us we worship a man, or a Prophet, simply because we revere him for his restoration work, no differently than how Moses or others are revered especially by their people. We worship God the Father, through his Son, period.

Take care....

I will call it as I see it and you have offered nothing to make me think otherwise.

I feel for you, I really do but Mormons put me in a difficult position. I would love for you to see what you are doing because I care about you - but then again I have to come off as aggressive because there is a lot to protect.

 

[williamgramsmith]

You don't need to "feel" for me, I don't "feel" for you other than related to your "need" to criticize other believers, because if you knew your Bible like you think you do, you would know Christ himself directly condemns that action in Mark 9, Luke 9, & Matthew 18.

I would highly recommend you study the parts of those chapters that have to do with this point. Christ has very harsh words for it. The Apostles thought they should do what you are doing, because they had the truth, and the authority those "children" did not, but he warned them strongly the consequences of those who offend other believers.

I'm not concerned about you, even though you believe differently in Faith, because I know you're sincerely striving to know and serve God, and thus he blesses you according to YOUR understanding and ability. God doesn't just pore out all truth all at once, and the fact that you are so judgmental already as such a new believer is a SERIOUS flaw..... God doesn't teach those who think they know already.... the cup is already full.

I know this because I left the Church and was anti-mormon and anti-religion.
I know the judgmentalism and hate how it closes the mind and spirit, making people unable to be taught or to learn the actual truth. Take here for example. Several LDS have been here for some time, and others are well experienced. Our enemy's make claims of us, and we correct them, and they make those claims over and over again, and we correct them over and over again, even irrefutable things, and not "interpretive" we correct them, yet they still continue to repeat the same falsehoods of us or some subject related to us. Even the sciences they deny or refuse to look at.

Do you really want to be one of those who bear false witness of others, or do you want to be like Skylark especially who doesn't believe the same as us but always represents us accurately, is honest before her fellow men?

Don't go down the road most others go down, the religion within good ol religion, a false religion within Faithful religion, a religion that doesn't belong to the highest. Anyway, just a recommendation.

 

[xXMikHaelXx]

You don't need to "feel" for me, I don't "feel" for you other than related to your "need" to criticize other believers, because if you knew your Bible like you think you do, you would know Christ himself directly condemns that action in Mark 9, Luke 9, & Matthew 18.

I would highly recommend you study the parts of those chapters that have to do with this point. Christ has very harsh words for it. The Apostles thought they should do what you are doing, because they had the truth, and the authority those "children" did not, but he warned them strongly the consequences of those who offend other believers.

I'm not concerned about you, even though you believe differently in Faith, because I know you're sincerely striving to know and serve God, and thus he blesses you according to YOUR understanding and ability. God doesn't just pore out all truth all at once, and the fact that you are so judgmental already as such a new believer is a SERIOUS flaw..... God doesn't teach those who think they know already.... the cup is already full.

I know this because I left the Church and was anti-mormon and anti-religion.
I know the judgmentalism and hate how it closes the mind and spirit, making people unable to be taught or to learn the actual truth. Take here for example. Several LDS have been here for some time, and others are well experienced. Our enemy's make claims of us, and we correct them, and they make those claims over and over again, and we correct them over and over again, even irrefutable things, and not "interpretive" we correct them, yet they still continue to repeat the same falsehoods of us or some subject related to us. Even the sciences they deny or refuse to look at.

Do you really want to be one of those who bear false witness of others, or do you want to be like Skylark especially who doesn't believe the same as us but always represents us accurately, is honest before her fellow men?

Don't go down the road most others go down, the religion within good ol religion, a false religion within Faithful religion, a religion that doesn't belong to the highest. Anyway, just a recommendation.

I'm not sure what you would like to reference in any of those chapters - care to be more specific with verses? Would that be too much trouble for you?

I'm not bearing false witness, I am bearing true witness.

Once again, I do not follow a religion. I am actively against religion and believe it to be a scarlet beast.

Once again, you fail to see what I am saying. I use the Bible as a sort of reference letter, to assure others that I do indeed know what I am talking about. I am taught something, independent of the Bible and then I am given scriptural references when I go to write an article or debate someone. If you were to ask me for my favorite Bible verse, I wouldn't be able to give you one. I know the Bible because I am taught the content but the Bible is not what teaches me, nor do I study it.

When I write an article or debate, the scripture reference is given to me by the Holy Spirit - you could say that I wouldn't be able to reference anything within the Bible without Him. I am a new believer but I am also very seasoned because it's not usually me that is writing - they aren't my own thoughts or ideas.


I'm not concerned about you, even though you believe differently in Faith, because I know you're sincerely striving to know and serve God, and thus he blesses you according to YOUR understanding and ability. God doesn't just pore out all truth all at once

He doesn't base anything on my knowledge because I had NO knowledge to begin with. Everything I know was GIVEN to me.

I know this because I left the Church and was anti-mormon and anti-religion.
I know the judgmentalism and hate how it closes the mind and spirit, making people unable to be taught or to learn the actual truth.

I never belonged to a Church or religion. You keep making assumptions about me to validate yourself and I keep trying to correct you but you refuse to see.

I, on my own, know nothing unless it is taught to me. I do not attend Church, I don't even read religious books, I don't associate with a religion, I don't hang out with Christians - The closest I get to a Christian is on this website. I am directly taught by the Holy Spirit.

I picked up the BOM and read it - I did what Mormons ask - I consulted my teacher to tell me if what I was reading was correct. My teacher certainly blew a few holes in the BOM but He didn't reveal any truth it it. I knew NOTHING about Mormonism before I picked up that book, I had no judgment at all. I assumed they were just another denomination and then I found out that they had "other" books of the Bible. I had read the "other" books in the Catholic Bible, so I figured I would take a look at the BOM too.

So this idea that I had some pre-contrived idea about Mormonism is incorrect.

 

[williamgramsmith]

No, I understand entirely what you are saying. You think I'm simply speaking of church, but I'm not. I'm speaking of judgments, interpretations, including ones own that when they become judgmental of Faith, they shut off their minds, thinking they know it all.

I know this because I've done it, and I've seen plenty of others do it, and worse never get beyond it namely such as those on this forum. I'm simply warning you of a danger. I guess a simple example would be, you read the Book of Mormon, and some teacher you believe poked some holes in it. Don't think that's the end of the story, especially you might discover if you learn from others that those holes are not actually holes, and there is much more to know and understand.

Anyway..... BTW the parts in question start about midway through those chapters concerning "others doing miracles in Christ's name".

Take care.

 

[joneysd]

I'm not going to criticize your conversion to the Gospel or to Christ.

I'll just say that everyone has their own judgment. Lot's of people create religions from reading the Bible, but it ends up being their own religion, even if they don't create a religion, it's their own.

Me, when I read the Bible, God led me to see Mormonism in it, and because I was actually in various religions, it was easy to see all the false conclusions, and then when I came upon the LDS Church, it was the only religion that fully fit the Bible. Not just mostly either, but in every way.

Anyway, I'm happy for your change..... I don't doubt it was of God.
Just be aware that not every judgment one makes through their own understanding is the same as being of God. I've seen it too much to know most of the time it's not.

So, I guess we just disagree.... I read the Bible, and outside of the Davidic verses that testify of Christ I see verses praising Prophets, but I guess you don't, and so you judge us LDS, that's fine. I've tried to show from both scripture, history, and logic what the whole truth is, but if you don't want to understand it, that's fine.

Just please don't tell us we worship a man, or a Prophet, simply because we revere him for his restoration work, no differently than how Moses or others are revered especially by their people. We worship God the Father, through his Son, period.

Take care....

yep joseph smith leaps to mind.

 

[xXMikHaelXx]

I guess a simple example would be, you read the Book of Mormon, and some teacher you believe poked some holes in it.

Teacher - Holy Spirit.

Not a physical teacher - the ultimate teacher. He blew it out of the water when I picked it up.

See, you still do not understand. I do not listen to ANYONE on the this planet. There is no one influencing me except for my God. If my God is so adamantly against you, then so am I. Though, I do still feel for you.

So you say you do miracles and therefore I should leave the Mormons be?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’​

I would like to note that this part is specifically talking about false disciples/prophets.

Even the Anti-Christ will do great wonders and signs.

 

[joneysd]

Teacher - Holy Spirit.

Not a physical teacher - the ultimate teacher. He blew it out of the water when I picked it up.

See, you still do not understand. I do not listen to ANYONE on the this planet. There is no one influencing me except for my God. If my God is so adamantly against you, then so am I. Though, I do still feel for you.

So you say you do miracles and therefore I should leave the Mormons be?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’​

I would like to note that this part is specifically talking about false disciples/prophets.

Even the Anti-Christ will do great wonders and signs.

very well said.