Pope of Rome vs Historic Protestants (2)

[tall73]

Jesus said "till heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall pass" from the ten commandment law.

(Emphasis supplied)

That is not what Jesus said. He did not state only the ten commandment law.

Adventists often quote Matthew 5 with only the ten commandments in mind. However, Jesus quotes not just from the 10 commandments, but other sections of the law.

Yes, Jesus references the commandments about murder and adultery. But He also talks about oaths, eye for eye, etc. using the same "you have heard" forumula. Those were not part of the ten.


Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The words apply to the whole law, not just the ten commandments.

Murder


Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.
Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.
Mat 5:26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.


Jesus shows that behind the command against murder, one of the ten, is also the principle of reconciling with your brother and not hating your brother.

Adultery

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Mat 5:31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
Mat 5:32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Another of the 10 is enlarged upon. Lust is adultery of the heart. Even thoughts matter.

But then Jesus turns to some issues from other commands.

Oaths


Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
Mat 5:35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.


This command is from the OT law, but not the ten commandments.

Compare:

Num 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Lev 19:12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.


So when Jesus speaks of the law He does not refer only to the ten.

Eye for Eye

Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
Mat 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
Mat 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
Mat 5:42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Compare:

Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


Again Jesus references parts of the law not in the ten.



Not only that, sometimes the word law means the whole first five books, and when paired with "the prophets" can indicate OT scripture. We also see this in Matt. 5:17


Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


Both the law and prophets are involved. Likely these together are a reference to the whole of the OT scriptures.

Jesus did not come to do away with the whole law.

 

[tall73]

The law that you are referring to was nailed to the cross, can you nail stone to wood? No, but can nail lamb skin can't you?

It was not the ceremonial law nailed to the cross either. It was our certificate of death, our sin that was nailed to the cross. The term handwriting of ordinances has parallels outside the NT as well that indicate a handwritten notice of bond. Hence a number of translations that now recognize this and render it that way. It was a handwritten notice of indebtedness.

It was our sin that was against us. And Jesus, according to 2 Corinthians became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God. He paid our debt. He was nailed to the cross.

Look at the context:

COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.


It was this debt that stood against us, our sins. Jesus paid the debt.

Notice the context. It is all one sentence.

He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

He forgave us our sins...how? By paying the debt, the certificate no longer stood against us. It was paid.

The phrase "having cancelled" follows and explains the phrase "He forgave us all our sins."

Neither the removal of the "moral law" or the "ceremonial law" (both were really the law of Moses) would forgive sins. Removing the debt of sin was what was needed.


Only the sacrifice of Christ for our sins could pay the debt of sin and release us.

Notice the rendering of the following translations:

NASB,


having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us

Amplified:

Having cancelled and blotted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note (bond) with its legal decrees and demands


ESV:

by canceling the record of debt



ASV

having blotted out the bond written in ordinances

HCSB

He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations


NLT

He canceled the record that contained the charges against us

 

[Rhamiel]

How about alcohol and caffeine?

The visions God gave Mrs White is what lead to the temperance movement in America and prohibition. Can your pope make such claims?

All these nerve irritants are wearing away the life-forces, and the restlessness caused by shattered nerves, the impatience, the mental feebleness, become a warring element, antagonizing to spiritual progress. Then should not those who advocate temperance and reform be awake to counteract the evils of these injurious drinks? In some cases it is as difficult to break up the tea-and-coffee habit as it is for the inebriate to discontinue the use of liquor. The money expended for tea and coffee is worse than wasted. They do the user only harm, and that continually. Those who use tea, coffee, opium, and alcohol, may sometimes live to old age, but this fact is no argument in favor of the use of these stimulants. What these persons might have accomplished, but failed to do because of their intemperate habits, the great day of God alone will reveal. {CTBH 34.5}

She said this a hundred years before the Surgeon General Koop tried putting warning labels on Caffeine.

you talk about prohibition like it was a good thing?
people still got alcohol, the only difference was that criminals got rich instead of store owners
and did Koop get warning labels on products with caffeine?
so yet another failure
are you sure you want to connect the your Prophetess with such horrible ideas and failures?

 

[Lysimachus]

Prophecy was not necessarily unusual in the early Advent movement. There were others who were known to prophesy. After the failure of Jesus to come in 1843 then 1844 the movement splintered into various fragments. Some thought they were deceived and went back to their old churches or just became agnostics. Others, those who held to a "shut door", Ellen White included, eventually concluded that the prophecies still pointed to 1844, and they just misunderstood what would happen.

The very fact that were so many unusually prophetic manifestations during this time period, only serves to reinforce the genuineness of Ellen White's prophetic ministry, not undermine it.

The fact that there were so many false prophets--JW's Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, Mormon's Joseph Smith, the Fox Sisters, and Evolution right at the same time around the end of 1844, goes to show that Satan was a "little nervous"---thus, one is left to ask the question: Is the fact that there were so many false prophets and false manifestations that transpired in the 1840s an evidence in itself that just maybe...that just maybe...there was a TRUE prophet in the "pile" to obscure the truth and cloud it?

Absolutely.

The very fact that there were so many false prophets and prophecies rising up at the end of the 2300 year prophecy proves that Satan was trying to hide the truth by counterfeit prophets and prophecies. So when so many events occur around relatively the same time, it is for the searcher of truth to inquire---where is the true one in the midst? Where is the truth in the midst of all this confusion and error? Yup, it's hiding.

And it is going to be one of them. Which one wins?

God's prophet obviously would be the one living up according to the law and the testimony.

She received over 2000 dreams and visions, more than any other prophet in history. Would God allow Satan's prophet to oust Him, and completely beat every prophet on the planet in the number of visions and writings?

It is most unlikely. If Ellen White was a prophet of Satan, God sure shot Himself in the foot to allow Satan to raise one up that wrote over 100,000 pages that circulated the globe, and where she received over 2000 dreams and visions. So if she was the "false one", which of the other prophetic manifestations from the numerous others around that same time period is true? Pick one, and decide, for there can be nothing further from the truth that Satan was truly trying to obscure the truth.

Satan is notorious for rising up false counterfeits just when there is some heavy-duty truths that he detects will expose his deceptions.

I encourage all here to not let tall73 confound you. Do your own research. He is an ex-SDA pastor, just like there are numerous "ex" pastors of almost every denomination out there, and all of them have their "reasons" for why the church or group they left is "false" or a "cult". Would you go to these men to find out the truth about what the Church they left believed? Or would you do honest research by investigating information from the horses mouth?

My encouragement is to pick up some of Ellen White's books, such as Steps to Christ, The Desire of Ages, The Great Controversy, Thoughts on the Mount of Blessing, etc., and read what she has to say for yourself.

 

[Lysimachus]

Tall73, the certificate of debt includes the ceremonial law, for the entire ceremonial system was the "container" holding those sins, IOUs so to speak on behalf of ancient Israel. So to nail the ceremonial law to the cross is to cancel out the sins, for the ceremonial law and the record of sin were "intrinsically tied to one another".

Since Christ was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), it was though it had already been done on behalf of the Israelites before the death of Christ on the cross. But once He died on the cross, the legal transaction took place, even though the benefits were available before. Long before the legal action takes place, it's already as though it was done. This same principle operates for 1844 by the way....for the sinner who was repentant, on record, the sins were forgiven and wiped away and cleaned up on behalf of the sinner, but the legal transaction of the actual cleansing of the sanctuary would not take place until 1844, just like Christ's death was not until A.D. 31, but it was though His death on the cross had already taken place in relation to the sinner (Isaiah 44:22), and is mentioned as transpiring in the past, even though it would not be until another 700 years in the future when Christ would literally die on the cross.

It was in 1844 that the literal heavenly celestial celebratory procession took place to commemorate the commencement of the Antitypical Day of Atonement", but this literal legal act was as though it had already happened for believers who repented long before 1844.

It is by this rule that answers most of your objections in Hebrews.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

It was not the ceremonial law nailed to the cross either. It was our certificate of death, our sin that was nailed to the cross. The term handwriting of ordinances has parallels outside the NT as well that indicate a handwritten notice of bond. Hence a number of translations that now recognize this and render it that way. It was a handwritten notice of indebtedness.

It was our sin that was against us. And Jesus, according to 2 Corinthians became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God. He paid our debt. He was nailed to the cross.

Look at the context:

COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.


It was this debt that stood against us, our sins. Jesus paid the debt.

Notice the context. It is all one sentence.

He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

He forgave us our sins...how? By paying the debt, the certificate no longer stood against us. It was paid.

The phrase "having cancelled" follows and explains the phrase "He forgave us all our sins."

Neither the removal of the "moral law" or the "ceremonial law" (both were really the law of Moses) would forgive sins. Removing the debt of sin was what was needed.


Only the sacrifice of Christ for our sins could pay the debt of sin and release us.

Notice the rendering of the following translations:

NASB,


having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us

Amplified:

Having cancelled and blotted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note (bond) with its legal decrees and demands


ESV:

by canceling the record of debt



ASV

having blotted out the bond written in ordinances

HCSB

He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations


NLT

He canceled the record that contained the charges against us

I see what you are saying, but the point you made actually illustrates my point more precisely.

The Ten Commandments had the judgment connected to it.

If you broke ANY of the Ten Commandments you subject to being Killed (eye for an eye). This is the judgment. Jesus was nailed to the cross so we do not have to die after the judgment. He fulfilled the ordinance of the judgment by dying for us, because we committed sin and the judgment is against us.

Not one of ceremonial laws had the command of death. Jesus did not die because we do not keep the Passover or the Atonement, He died to fulfill the symbolic meaning of the Atonement, His death IS the atonement for our sins against God.

Keeping the ceremonial law was the 'typology' of the process of redemption.

By coming to the cross you are part of the ceremonial law in antitype fashion.

The sins of our lives are covered in the blood of the Lamb, this is the antitype of the ceremony.

The ceremony was fulfilled in the death of Jesus, but that does not end the commands of God to stop sinning does it?

We are supposed to go through the antitypical Atonement to overcome sinning which is breaking the commandments. The Commandments will NEVER be done away with because they are the manifestation of the Character of God.

The fact that Jesus died on the cross proves the indelibility of the Ten Commandments, for if they could be done away with, then Jesus did not have to die.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

With that in mind now read this :

"For the Son of man is Lord of the sabbath day"

He created us then rested with us and this is His delight for us. Before there ever was a Jew the Sabbath was the day to meet with God. There is no other way to commune with God. He came to celebrate His creation of Adam in the Garden on the Seventh Day. It is the day HE CHOSE to commune with us.

By breaking this commandment, men set themselves against God and continue to sin against Him in rebellion. What would be the outcome of this rebellion? Death to the sinner. We must repent and receive the Holy Spirit.

If you truly love Him, these words will touch your heart. I think you do love Him and I am motivated to tell you this. Peace.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Satan loves it when men justify keeping Sunday as their day of rest. This is how he deludes men and leads them to hell while claiming the name of Jesus. This is the epitome of Anti-Christ.

Jesus, the Christ gave us the Sabbath to be recreated into His image. So the Sabbath is the redemption of God established before sin ever came into the world. It is the eternal of love of God made manifest before we were even created.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

In the time before Jesus, by breaking the ceremonial laws you would be 'put out of the camp' of the saints. This signifies the rejection of the process of redemption. If you do not come to the cross, you do not get redeemed, so you are resurrected outside of the camp of the saints, the New Jerusalem, in the second resurrection. Then you pay for your own sins, for every time you broke the Ten Commandments would increase your suffering in hell. If we do not accept the Atonement of the blood of Christ, then our sins will not be placed on the head of the Scapegoat (Satan) in the end of Atonement.

Does this make sense?

 

[jamesonofthunder]

The ceremonial law and the temple were typological representations of the process of redemption. Everything Moses and the prophets were shown represents the story of redemption. The temple sets the stage to meet with God through the High Priest and sacrifice, Jesus our redeemer.

So what good does the system of worship have that is not mentioned in scripture except as a warning against such false heavenly images? When the High Priest held the golden censer in the temple, it signified Jesus offering our prayers in heaven, and this is happening literally now in heaven, so what good does the false system of the Pope or Priest have holding a censor that now has no earthly meaning?

These images were done away with when the fulfillment came. It is the highest form of blasphemy to claim the pope offers our prayers to Mary then God. I hope someone is listening here. That is how our church knows the Papacy is anti-Christ. They do things God has fulfilled, and they do it in a way that is not mentioned by God's Holy word.

Do you remember this story?

15 And Moses was very angry and said to the Lord, “Do not respect their offering. I have not taken one donkey from them, and I have not harmed one of them.”

16 And Moses said to Korah, “Be present, you and all your company, before the Lord, you and they, and Aaron, tomorrow. 17 And let every one of you take his censer and put incense on it, and every one of you bring before the Lord his censer, 250 censers; you also, and Aaron, each his censer.” 18 So every man took his censer and put fire in them and laid incense on them and stood at the entrance of the tent of meeting with Moses and Aaron. 19 Then Korah assembled all the congregation against them at the entrance of the tent of meeting. And the glory of the Lord appeared to all the congregation.

20 And the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, 21 “Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.” 22 And they fell on their faces and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?” 23 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 24 “Say to the congregation, Get away from the dwelling of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.”

25 Then Moses rose and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 And he spoke to the congregation, saying, “Depart, please, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest you be swept away with all their sins.” 27 So they got away from the dwelling of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. And Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the door of their tents, together with their wives, their sons, and their little ones. 28 And Moses said, “Hereby you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord. 29 If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.”
31 And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. 32 And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 And all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up!” 35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men offering the incense.

They were holding their own censers contending with the men that God had chosen to offer incense to Him.

They were killed by God swallowing them up in the ground. If God did not command it, then men should not be doing it in His name.

 

[Albion]

The ceremonial law and the temple were typological representations of the process of redemption. Everything Moses and the prophets were shown represents the story of redemption. The temple sets the stage to meet with God through the High Priest and sacrifice, Jesus our redeemer.

So what good does the system of worship have that is not mentioned in scripture except as a warning against such false heavenly images? When the High Priest held the golden censer in the temple, it signified Jesus offering our prayers in heaven, and this is happening literally now in heaven, so what good does the false system of the Pope or Priest have holding a censor that now has no earthly meaning?

Joining in with our prayers. We are supposed to pray, you know, even if Jesus is in heaven now.

 

[GladiatorforGod]

Joining in with our prayers. We are supposed to pray, you know, even if Jesus is in heaven now.

But, we are not to substitute a man made priesthood in place of Jesus, as we can go directly to the throne of grace before Jesus Our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Joining in with our prayers. We are supposed to pray, you know, even if Jesus is in heaven now.

But when a man is holding a censer without God commanding men to do so, that is representing something that has been fulfilled , is against God's will.

It is the identification of a false religion.

Do we still offer a lamb and keep Passover? The temple in the city of Jerusalem was commanded to be built by God for a reason. Does the pope have the right to build a counterfeit temple and restart the offerings of incense without God saying to do so? Does he hold the secret ingredients that were forbidden for anyone to duplicate?

Here is another point. Did jesus say we are to go to a man and confess our sins?

Are we supposed to go to a priest and tell them everything, then he goes to the bishop and he goes to the pope to absolve our sins?

Where is this recorded in scripture? Am I presenting a "Straw man" by arguing this point?

Shouldn't we be told by God to rebuild a temple in Rome if that was His will?

If you look at this objectively, why would God allow Rome to destroy Jerusalem and the temple He told the Jews to build, then allow them to build a counterfeit temple in Rome and establish doctrines and religious images that found no place in scripture?

This is a huge red flag to me. How about you?

 

[Albion]

But, we are not to substitute a man made priesthood in place of Jesus, as we can go directly to the throne of grace before Jesus Our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

That's a completely different issue. Why use incense was the question ("...holding a censor that now has no earthly meaning?").

And BTW, the New Testament does indeed show us that clergy are part of Christ's church--elders, presbyters, deacons, bishops.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

But, we are not to substitute a man made priesthood in place of Jesus, as we can go directly to the throne of grace before Jesus Our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Amen brother. I am proud to call you my brother.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

That's a completely different issue. Why use incense was the question ("...holding a censor that now has no earthly meaning?").

And BTW, the New Testament does indeed show us that clergy are part of Christ's church--elders, presbyters, deacons, bishops.

Only if they follow His guidance.

Were the Jews the true children of God when they crucified Jesus? They were called deacons and elders, but they also fulfilled the prophecy of those who pierced Him. Were they really in the church?

 

[Albion]

Only if they follow His guidance.

No, there's no provision for setting all the clergy aside if we don't like how they're doing.

Were the Jews the true children of God when they crucified Jesus? They were called deacons and elders, but they also fulfilled the prophecy of those who pierced Him. Were they really in the church?

No. They had no deacons or presbyters and were not in the church.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

No, there's no provision for setting all the clergy aside if we don't like how they're doing.

Then why did Jesus call them a brood of vipers, whitewashed tombstones or "those who killed the prophets"?

 

[jamesonofthunder]

And by the way, the word Presbyter is shepherd.

This means a pastor, and Peter was not talking about a title of the Catholic church.

If you want to see a true shepherd, do not imagine a man covered in costly garments made of Scarlet with precious stones.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

1 Peter 5:5 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

What an example.