Pope of Rome vs Historic Protestants (2)

[tall73]

If a prophet of God received a letter like this, why would that prophet not provide Scripture evidence to help resolve the conflict?

And now Sister White, what can I do? If I accept the testimony of the Scriptures, if I follow my conscientious convictions, I find myself under your condemnation; and you call me a wolf in sheep's clothing, and warn my brethren and the members of my family against me. But when I turn in my sorrow to the Word of the Lord, that Word reads the same, and I fear to reject God's interpretation and accept yours. Oh that I might accept both. But if I must accept but one, hadn't I better accept the Lord's? If I reject his word and accept yours, can you save me in the judgment?

 

[tall73]

Alright Lysimichas, we have looked at the context. Time to answer.

Do you entertain arguments from the Scripture presented by people if they challenge Adventist pillar doctrines?

 

[Rhamiel]

I agree that what constitutes freedom is hard to determine, but consider the Protestant countries of the world--Norway, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands, South Africa, Iceland etc. Widely considered to be among the most free. Against that, you get Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Croatia, Mexico, and other banana republics usually ruled by generalissimos. Of course you could also throw in Italy. You remember the wonderful justice system that convicted Amanda Knox for murder without any evidence and then said it would tack on more years because she had said that the police had been abusive to her.

I said we should compare like to like
I see you holding up -with the exception of South Africa- countries in the Global North and comparing them to third world countries with a history of colonization.
religion is not the only factor
and Cuba is not a Catholic Country, as the regime in power is not Catholic but rather Communist.
and is Switzerland a Protestant country? I thought the majority of the Swiss were atheist

let us compare like to like
Ireland and Finland for example?


and the Amanda Knox event is rather shallow, we can cherry pick court cases from every country on earth and find a few that are horrible

 

[Erose]

That's quite a whitewash. The Catholic countries are decidedly less free than the Protestant countries. (Needless to say, communist and socialist countries that are hostile to all forms of religion are not going to provide freedom in any case).

Why would this be a whitewash? Rhamiel did not even mention Protestant in his response. Maybe an apology for jumping the gun is appropriate.

 

[Albion]

Why would this be a whitewash? Rhamiel did not even mention Protestant in his response.

I don't suppose it ever entered into your thinking, but a "whitewash" refers to how a particular topic is treated. It does not depend upon a side-by-side comparison.

 

[Lysimachus]

Alright Lysimichas, we have looked at the context. Time to answer.

Do you entertain arguments from the Scripture presented by people if they challenge Adventist pillar doctrines?

Of course I do. But it has been a long time since I have seen anything "new" come on the table. I have evaluated everything, and thus far, I have found all my answers satisfactorily answered.

Yes, you do need to get Bohr's work. But more importantly, Mr. Heidi Heik's works, especially, "The 'Daily' Source Book". He does a careful word study on Daniel 8 and the 2300 days in relation to the IJ. And while Goldstein did recycle some information from the DARCOM, many of the arguments continue to stand, and have yet to be refuted. I've seen all the "negative" websites out there, including 2300days.com (which is truly semantic jugglery), and none of it has impressed me so far.

There are times when our opponents like to "imagine" something that counters Adventism, but it is just the bending twist they are reading into the text, failing to recognize it's spiritual and practical import, thinking that somehow it undermines the chronological prophetic framework of Adventism.

I'm not really here in this forum to debate ex-Adventists. I'm here to engage non-Adventists. We've been down this road before at ClubAdventist.com, and I consider arguing with you a waste of my precious God-given time. It's what Satan wants to slow us down from spreading the Three Angel's Messages, and I believe he is using individuals as yourself to preventing us from fulfilling His plan for us in our lives.

 

[Albion]

I said we should compare like to like
I see you holding up -with the exception of South Africa- countries in the Global North and comparing them to third world countries with a history of colonization.
religion is not the only factor
and Cuba is not a Catholic Country, as the regime in power is not Catholic but rather Communist.
and is Switzerland a Protestant country? I thought the majority of the Swiss were atheist

let us compare like to like
Ireland and Finland for example?


and the Amanda Knox event is rather shallow, we can cherry pick court cases from every country on earth and find a few that are horrible

Religion is not the only factor, but there is a well-accepted belief that the historic religion of these countries had much to do with promoting political, economic, and religious freedom. And the contrast is easily seen. As a result, northern Europe became prosperous and relatively free while the Catholic countries of the Mediterranean lagged in all categories. This is even true of their colonies (since you mention that). Most of the latter countries, in fact, became fascistic dictatorships in the recent past, although they aren't anymore.

 

[Lysimachus]

That is a sad excuse. You can go read MR 760 and see what she said. She blasted him again and again, but never addressed his actual views from the Scriptures, and never corrected his reading of the Scriptures. This was despite the fact that he asked her for Scripture evidence to correct him.

And it is not just that Ballenger was stubborn. You can also read in the beginning of MR 760 that he repented of one of his positions before on the presentation of the Sabbath, in light of what Ellen White stated.

If she couldn't correct him from the Bible then she need not decry him based on their "50 years" of experiences. That was the basis throughout her letters. She stated that the Spirit demonstrated to her in vision in the past, and now the Spirit told her that Ballenger was wrong. Why do all that if she could just explain the Scriptures and correct Ballenger?

Do you really think experience should be the basis of judging truth?

Nah, sorry. I don't think it's a sad excuse at all. I think she did the right thing.

Paul also said that we should rebuke a heretic twice, and leave him alone. He did not say take out 10 years of your life trying to refute him from scripture. When the enemy has taken hold of someone so much, we are to leave them alone, they are joined to their idols. If God showed Ellen White that this is what Ballenger was up to, then it's not sad excuse, but a decision based on inspiration.

Not going to keep arguing this point. It's just your opinion. Just the way you choose to look at the situation. You overanalyze it to death to the point that you imagine that somehow she was wrong, and Ballenger was right.

I'm convinced that had you lived in Biblical times, you would have found plenty of reasons why the prophets mistreated their detractors and did not take the time to "refute" them like they should, and probably would have accused them of being a "copout".

I am not convinced you have any case. But like I said, I'm not going to keep arguing with you in here. I'm here to discuss topics with other people.

 

[Erose]

I agree that what constitutes freedom is hard to determine, but consider the Protestant countries of the world--Norway, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands, South Africa, Iceland etc. Widely considered to be among the most free. Against that, you get Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Croatia, Mexico, and other banana republics usually ruled by generalissimos. Of course you could also throw in Italy. You remember the wonderful justice system that convicted Amanda Knox for murder without any evidence and then said it would tack on more years because she had said that the police had been abusive to her.

I think one can safely say that sadly in this modern Europe that very few countries are still religious. Your list are all secular countries now. Secularism is the new state religion as is evidenced by the mass turning away from religion in Europe and other Western nations as well, including the USA. Here is a pretty sad table in this link: Religion in the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Everywhere one looks we sadly see a plague of apostasy in what was formally strong Christian (Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox) nations. It makes one wonder if we are seeing the Great Apostasy that St. Paul warned us about.

 

[tall73]

Of course I do. But it has been a long time since I have seen anything "new" come on the table. I have evaluated everything, and thus far, I have found all my answers satisfactorily answered.

Then I consider your approach better than Ellen White's who counseled not to consider them. I am glad you disregarded her in this.

Yes, you do need to get Bohr's work. But more importantly, Mr. Heidi Heik's works, especially, "The 'Daily' Source Book". He does a careful word study on Daniel 8 and the 2300 days in relation to the IJ. And while Goldstein did recycle some information from the DARCOM, many of the arguments continue to stand, and have yet to be refuted. I've seen all the "negative" websites out there, including 2300days.com (which is truly semantic jugglery), and none of it has impressed me so far.

There are times when our opponents like to "imagine" something that counters Adventism, but it is just the bending twist they are reading into the text, failing to recognize it's spiritual and practical import, thinking that somehow it undermines the chronological prophetic framework of Adventism.

Have you seen any resources that actually address Hebrews? Because I rarely see that addressed at all.

I'm not really here in this forum to debate ex-Adventists. I'm here to engage non-Adventists. We've been down this road before at ClubAdventist.com, and I consider arguing with you a waste of my precious God-given time. It's what Satan wants to slow us down from spreading the Three Angel's Messages, and I believe he is using individuals as yourself to preventing us from fulfilling His plan for us in our lives.

You can participate in whatever way you want of course However, you may have less success if you do not answer the Scriptural challenges of those who are also addressing your audience.


And you can assess me however you want. However, God will be the judge in the end.

 

[tall73]

Nah, sorry. I don't think it's a sad excuse at all. I think she did the right thing.

Paul also said that we should rebuke a heretic twice, and leave him alone. He did not say take out 10 years of your life trying to refute him from scripture. When the enemy has taken hold of someone so much, we are to leave them alone, they are joined to their idols. If God showed Ellen White that this is what Ballenger was up to, then it's not sad excuse, but a decision based on inspiration.

Ah wait now. So then you are saying that Ellen White was right to not entertain biblical arguments but to go by her experience.

That doesn't seem in line with your earlier thought that Ballenger was not properly addressed.

Nor does it fit with your idea that you do entertain biblical arguments and assess them.

Are saying they should not have addressed the biblical arguments of Ballenger?

Not going to keep arguing this point. It's just your opinion. Just the way you choose to look at the situation. You overanalyze it to death to the point that you imagine that somehow she was wrong, and Ballenger was right.

I'm convinced that had you lived in Biblical times, you would have found plenty of reasons why the prophets mistreated their detractors and did not take the time to "refute" them like they should, and probably would have accused them of being a "copout".

I am not convinced you have any case. But like I said, I'm not going to keep arguing with you in here. I'm here to discuss topics with other people.

You need not address anything you don't want to. However, you just argued two different things. They should have refuted Ballenger better, and they should not have.

They can't both be the correct course.

 

[tall73]

Indeed, and Andreason was right. Adventists did not take out enough time to address Ballenger's concerns at that time, neither did they really do a good job early on in refuting Ford.

VS.

Nah, sorry. I don't think it's a sad excuse at all. I think she did the right thing.

Paul also said that we should rebuke a heretic twice, and leave him alone. He did not say take out 10 years of your life trying to refute him from scripture. When the enemy has taken hold of someone so much, we are to leave them alone, they are joined to their idols. If God showed Ellen White that this is what Ballenger was up to, then it's not sad excuse, but a decision based on inspiration.

Which is your true position?

 

[tall73]

Most Adventists wind up contradicting themselves on this question, because in actual practice they are not sure which they hold to be the higher inspiration.

The Scriptures should decide of course......but if Ellen White says it is so then.....


It is the inherent problem with saying you hold to TWO sources of truth, and one is higher than the other.

 

[Erose]

I'm just curious and I know this is off topic, but this thread has been off topic for a while now, so I will ask the question. Why is Ellen White viewed to be a prophetess or whatever she is called? What did she do to garner such a following?

 

[Albion]

Most Adventists wind up contradicting themselves on this question, because in actual practice they are not sure which they hold to be the higher inspiration.

The Scriptures should decide of course......but if Ellen White says it is so then.....


It is the inherent problem with saying you hold to TWO sources of truth, and one is higher than the other.

...and, for people who are interested in such things, it is the issue which determines whether the SDA should be classified as a cult or not.

 

[tall73]

I'm just curious and I know this is off topic, but this thread has been off topic for a while now, so I will ask the question. Why is Ellen White viewed to be a prophetess or whatever she is called? What did she do to garner such a following?

There are probably a number of possible answers on that. Of course some would depend on whether the person putting forth their view thinks she really was inspired.

Prophecy was not necessarily unusual in the early Advent movement. There were others who were known to prophesy. After the failure of Jesus to come in 1843 then 1844 the movement splintered into various fragments. Some thought they were deceived and went back to their old churches or just became agnostics. Others, those who held to a "shut door", Ellen White included, eventually concluded that the prophecies still pointed to 1844, and they just misunderstood what would happen.

At first they thought that God had shut the door of salvation on the world in 1844, and only those who accepted Miller's message were saved.

People debate how long this view lasted. Ellen White herself admits to holding that view a short time. Some say her writings indicate longer, but that is another topic.

As more began to cling to the idea that God was still behind the Millerite movement Ellen White had visions that upheld their beliefs as correct.

She also was the husband of James White who was probably the central leader in the early Adventist church. And she was friends who Joseph Bates who first introduced the Whites to the Sabbath (which they at first rejected).

Bates was also the first to create the end times scheme that put the Sabbath at the center. He was one of the few who had been very important in the Millerite movement so he was a tie to all those groups of Millerites, all of whom were trying to figure out what happened after the failed prophecies of 1843 then 1844.

In addition to these relationships James showed himself to be adept at publishing. They got their views out there, recapping Millerite arguments of the past to show they were on to something and just got a few things wrong, and pushing their new views of what really happened in 1844.

Since the former Millerites were dispersed geographically it was through publications that they dialogued primarily, but they would also get together at times and have meetings to discuss things.

Publications were what kept these various post-Miller groups together. And Ellen White's visions could be published along with other thoughts.

 

[tall73]

...and, for people who are interested in such things, it is the issue which determines whether the SDA should be classified as a cult or not.

I suppose the major factor.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree that what constitutes freedom is hard to determine, but consider the Protestant countries of the world--Norway, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands, South Africa, Iceland etc. Widely considered to be among the most free. Against that, you get Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Croatia, Mexico, and other banana republics usually ruled by generalissimos. Of course you could also throw in Italy. You remember the wonderful justice system that convicted Amanda Knox for murder without any evidence and then said it would tack on more years because she had said that the police had been abusive to her.

Quite an interesting selection you made.

We could equally have listed Austria, Italy, South Germany, and France as Catholic countries/regions.

And South Africa, Zimbabwe, Northern Germany, and Iceland as Protestant countries/regions.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

All of the arguing aside.

As Bible believing Christians we all should be holding to the standard of righteousness that Christ Jesus presented to His disciples. Jesus changed their lives and they were conformed to His righteousness by beholding His beauty. he showed them how to keep His word by a living example. Then they did miracles in His name.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

By beholding His love, righteousness and justice we become changed. Then and only then will any of us have the right to claim superior knowledge of the truth as presented in the word of God.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

So a true believer can be speaking complete and unadulterated truth but someone who is resting on the traditions of men and not the doctrines of God will never hear the truth. The Jews who had the words of God memorized stoned Stephen for speaking in the Spirit of truth. This is a biblical constant. The Spirit guides and Satan persecuted the ones led by God.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

We as Seventh Day Adventists have been shown the future through the Spirit of Truth. It is plainly laid out for all to see, and it has been and will be fulfilled. Everyone with an open heart will see the fulfillment and repent and be baptised as Jesus showed us.

We hold the same beliefs as the disciples held after Jesus was resurrected, they were cleansed in the fulfillment of biblical truth. That is why we are called the remnant. We keep the commandments of God and have the Spirit of Prophecy which are the identifying trademarks of the true end time church, does anyone else claim this distinction? If you can find a church which fills all the given biblical prerequisites better than our denomination as according to the written word of God, the 66 books of inspiration, join that church.

But I do not hear arguments here saying "we comply with God's commands here and here more than you do" I hear the argument "you guys are flawed here and here by saying we need to conform to the word of God". That is a futile argument.

We are not the example, and we do not claim we are. None of us Adventists believe we retain and walk in the perfection of Christ yet. When we are baptized if truly led to repentance we believe we stand before God in the perfection of the merits of Jesus, but there is coming a day when the true believers will have the Mystery of Godliness perfected in them and then the end will come. This time has not yet been fulfilled. We are in the time of the shaking, the time of cleansing is here, but soon a small group of people called the 144,000 will be empowered with the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the disciple received on pentecost. Does any other church teach this biblical message?

It's in scripture so why don't you teach it in your churches? Because your leaders have said none of that matters.

You also do not follow Jesus into the most Holy Place in heaven as we are told to do in scripture. In fact you do not teach the heavenly temple at all. None of that matters to you, yet you claim it is a sign we are deluded? This is a heavenly message and you ridicule us for it.

And then to top it off the Catholic teaching that the papal palace in Rome is where your sins are transmitted through confession, is a counterfeit temple and this teaching fulfills this prophecy.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is not the rebuilding of the earthly temple in Jerusalem, it is the counterfeit temple in Rome.

The man of sin claims the ten Commandments are done away with, and because sin is the transgression of the law this man teaches the law is done away with and this identifies him as the "man of sin". Now this stings to hear but anyone who is not attempting to keep the commandments of God and who justifies this teaching, are not lead by the Spirit of God.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How can anyone argue against the word of God and still claim they are led by God? Does this make any sense?

We teach the same things Jesus did, and this makes the Seventh Day Adventist church the remnant church. Not that everyone in the SDA church are led by the Spirit of truth, because there are many who are led astray and claim our faith. And it is not that those who came before us were perfected in truth either. Out of our church will be the ones who will lead the world from darkness, this will come from the Faith God has delivered to us, and Ellen White was a messenger of this truth.

 

[MoreCoffee]

All of the arguing aside.

If only you'd follow through