Pope approves blessings for same-sex couples if they don't resemble marriage

zippy2006

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I will admit that the term "blessing a couple" can be ambiguous if interpreted in isolation.
I don't think the term "couple" is ambiguous at all, and that is the problem. The two ways to save the document are to interpret the same-sex couple as living and seeking to live entirely chastely, or else interpreting the blessing as applying to individuals, independent of their relationship to one another. Neither of those interpretations seems plausible.

I think the complicated and confusing document is an attempt to compromise with the German position and avoid schism. That is the motivation, in my opinion.
 
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chevyontheriver

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That's fair. It's only been a few days. You can always try again should you be so-moved. Likewise, I could also be wrong and should study more of the criticisms. In any case, I will not be blessing any gay couples myself anytime soon.


We will see what happens but I think it will be years before all of this drama plays out to a final resolution. Regardless, I have faith that the Church will ultimately get things right.

Merry Christmas
Do also read what archbishop Chaput wrote about it:


 
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IcyChain

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I don't think the term "couple" is ambiguous at all, and that is the problem. The two ways to save the document are to interpret the same-sex couple as living and seeking to live entirely chastely, or else interpreting the blessing as applying to individuals, independent of their relationship to one another. Neither of those interpretations seems plausible.
Well, to clarify, I think that the phrase can be ambiguous in isolation (the same phrase can carry different meanings in different contexts). In the context of the documents, I think that "bless a same-sex couple" simply cannot mean "bless a same-sex relationship".

It may be difficult for us to agree on that because we come to the document with different backgrounds. What you see, I do not see. It can be the same with anything else. Two people read the same verse in the Bible and conclude that it means two entirely different things. Before I became Catholic I would never have imagined that "this is my body" actually means "this is my body". I would have thought the Catholic interpretation was ludicrous.

It would be nice to know what langauge the document was written in and how the nuances of that langauge might impact the discussion. I imagine that Pope Francis will let the pot stir for a bit and see if it comes to a resolution as with the infamous footnote 351. I find that style to be a bit frustrating myself but I am used to it by now. Perhaps there is a good reason for his ways. . .
I think the complicated and confusing document is an attempt to compromise with the German position and avoid schism. That is the motivation, in my opinion.
Fair enough. I would say that part of the reason for the document relates to the German bishop situation certainly.
 
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IcyChain

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A same sex "couple" is no couple at all. Just two (or more) lustful individuals.
Yeah I know right. Why stop at two? Maybe the next inquiry from the German bishops will ask about the possility of blessing same-sex threesomes.

But seriously. I think that gay people should be able to recieve a blessing. I have my own sins. We are all in need of God's grace. Whatever the documents mean I think that we can agree that sinners can be blessed but not the sin.
 
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zippy2006

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Well, to clarify, I think that the phrase can be ambiguous in isolation (the same phrase can carry different meanings in different contexts). In the context of the documents, I think that "bless a same-sex couple" simply cannot mean "bless a same-sex relationship".
In the context of the document "couple" cannot mean "couple," and that is the problem. It is the Humpty Dumpty problem. It is the self-contradictory problem that I pointed out in my very first post. The document relies upon the idea that a couple can be blessed without their union being blessed, despite the fact that the essence of a couple is their union.

Germany thinks same-sex unions should be blessed, the Catholic tradition says they cannot, and now the Vatican has tried to find a compromise position between these two contradictory positions. But there is no middle between contradictories, and that is why contradictions are flowing from such an attempt (ex contradictione quodlibet).

What you see, I do not see.
Then which of the two implausible solutions do you choose? Or is there a third?

When you go up to a couple and say, "Oh, I think you two make a great couple!," are you speaking to them as separate individuals or as a couple? Is it even possible to refer to a couple in this way without referring to their union? (The only possible ambiguity is between the noun and adjective form of 'couple', but there is no question that it is the noun form that is at play in the document and in romantic relationships.)

Anyone in the world, when they read the sentence, "The couple was blessed," would interpret it to mean that that which unifies the couple was blessed (namely, their union). The fact that the Vatican wants us to now interpret commonsense, obvious sentences in completely unintuitive and backwards ways is deeply, deeply concerning. This is not a small thing. It almost always goes hand in hand with "arbitrary exercises of power," as Muller pointed out.
 
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IcyChain

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In the context of the document "couple" cannot mean "couple," and that is the problem. It is the Humpty Dumpty problem. It is the self-contradictory problem that I pointed out in my very first post. The document relies upon the idea that a couple can be blessed without their union being blessed, despite the fact that the essence of a couple is their union.

Germany thinks same-sex unions should be blessed, the Catholic tradition says they cannot, and now the Vatican has tried to find a compromise position between these two contradictory positions. But there is no middle between contradictories, and that is why contradictions are flowing from such an attempt (ex contradictione quodlibet).

Then which of the two implausible solutions do you choose? Or is there a third?
I think the way you resolve the problem (which is essentially equating the word "couple" to "friendship" by making the assumption that the "couple" is celibate) is fine. Perhaps that is what the author had in mind but I would need to read the document again with that in view. I did not understand that to be the meaning when I read it, either.

I already explained the option I chose to you. You reject it, which is fine. But I will try to explain it again.

Here, the word "couple" in the document does in fact mean "couple". To bless a same-sex couple simply means to bless two people who are in a same sex relationship. It does not mean to bless the same-sex relationship itself. A priest posted his understanding of this on Facebook. He gave the following example where two couples approach him after Mass and what his response would be:

Married couple: Father, can you bless us? Can you bless our union?
Priest: Yes and Yes.

Same-sex couple: Father, can you bless us? Can you bless our union?
Priest: Yes and no.

It is really that simple. You seem to equate the words "couple" and "coupling" but to do so is error. The words are not equivalent. The word "couple" refers to "two people" that share the attribute of being in a relationship. A "coupling" or a "relationship" refers to the bond that unites the couple. The bond and the couple are not the same thing.

Let me try to give another example. Let's say that there is a chain-gang of Catholic men who have committed serious crimes. They take the chain-gang outside one day to do some manual labor, while still chained. What makes this group of men a chain gang? They are a chain-gang because they have all committed serious crimes and must be bound in chains together while working outside so that none of them may escape. A priest is driving a car down the road while they are outside doing manual labor. Out of charity in his heart the priest decides to bless the chain gang. When the priest blessed the chain gang he blessed the people who committed the crimes and who are now bound together in chains. By blessing the chain gang he did not bless what causes them to be a chain gang (them having committed serious crimes and being bound by chains).

When you go up to a couple and say, "Oh, I think you two make a great couple!," are you speaking to them as separate individuals or as a couple? Is it even possible to refer to a couple in this way without referring to their union? (The only possible ambiguity is between the noun and adjective form of 'couple', but there is no question that it is the noun form that is at play in the document and in romantic relationships.)

Anyone in the world, when they read the sentence, "The couple was blessed," would interpret it to mean that that which unifies the couple was blessed (namely, their union). The fact that the Vatican wants us to now interpret commonsense, obvious sentences in completely unintuitive and backwards ways is deeply, deeply concerning. This is not a small thing. It almost always goes hand in hand with "arbitrary exercises of power," as Muller pointed out.
Lets say I am people watching with a friend while sitting on the sidewalk. A man and a woman are walking together in a romantic way (holding hands and kissing). This couple happens to be wearing matching clown suits. I say to my friend "Hey, look at that couple!" Here, I am referring to the two people as an entity, but what makes them an entity (their relationship) is almost entirely irrelevant. I want my friend to look at the two people. I do not want my friend to look at their relationship. Referring to them as a couple is merely a means of identifying the two people that I want my friend to look at.

I understand your viewpoint but I do not agree with it. I think that it is an entirely incorrect reading of the text. To me, it is like interpreting the phrase "The priest blessed the chain gang" to mean that the priest blessed murder and whatever other crimes they committed. It is untenable to me.

When I read the document I did not interpret "blessing of couples" to mean a blessing of that which unifies the couple in the slightest. That reading of the phrase may be completely commonsense to you, but it was completely alien to me. I am speaking in all honesty here even though this may surprise you. The way that you were interpreting the phrase did not occur to me at all in the slightest until you explained your view to me several times. It actually came as a surprise to me when I finally understood how you interpreted the phrase.

As I wrote, perhaps that is because we come to the document with a different background or a different way of reading text

For what is worth, as matter of prudence the document does not strike me as a great idea. It is not something that I would recommend or permit myself were I pope. But ultimately that is not up to me.
 
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IcyChain

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Do also read what archbishop Chaput wrote about it:


As a general matter I would say that Pope Francis's communication style and way of resolving conflicts could be improved. But he has had a lot on his plate.

I remember once when I was doing physical therapy after an injury I was pretty frustrated at all of the various things that my therapist was making me do. I did not understand at all how it was going to help me get better. I was so frustrated that we actually had a few verbal fights. But after an extended period of time I was able to recover. Near the end of our time together she said to me "You see, there is a method to my madness." Perhaps we have a "bad pope" as you wrote. Perhaps we are just in the middle of a process that has yet to fully play its way out. I think the same can be said for Vatican 2 as well. In 50 or 100 years perhaps time will tell.
 
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chevyontheriver

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As a general matter I would say that Pope Francis's communication style and way of resolving conflicts could be improved.
That is so understated.
 
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IcyChain

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That is so understated.
Here is an interesting quote from St. Catherine:

Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.

 
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Michie

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zippy2006

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I think the way you resolve the problem (which is essentially equating the word "couple" to "friendship" by making the assumption that the "couple" is celibate) is fine. Perhaps that is what the author had in mind but I would need to read the document again with that in view. I did not understand that to be the meaning when I read it, either.
Okay, fair enough.

The word "couple" refers to "two people" that share the attribute of being in a relationship. A "coupling" or a "relationship" refers to the bond that unites the couple. The bond and the couple are not the same thing.
A couple and the couple's union are notionally distinct, but every time you talk about the couple you are also talking about their union. This is why the priest's approach makes no sense. It is not possible to bless a couple without blessing their union. That "attribute of being in a relationship" is not separable from the couple. Once you separate it, the couple itself dissolves and becomes non-existent. Once the attribute goes away, the two are no longer a couple.

Out of charity in his heart the priest decides to bless the chain gang. When the priest blessed the chain gang he blessed the people who committed the crimes and who are now bound together in chains. By blessing the chain gang he did not bless what causes them to be a chain gang (them having committed serious crimes and being bound by chains).
There is no union in this case. Having commonalities does not mean that they possess a romantic or intentional union. A union vis-a-vis romantic coupling is a mutually intentional relation. The prisoners do not have this. Similarly, if a priest drives by a bus stop and silently blesses the two people waiting for the bus, he has not blessed a couple. Instead he has blessed two individuals simultaneously. If he knows the bus is running late and he blesses them for the sake of patience, then he has blessed two people in a similar situation, not a couple.

In all of these cases what is occurring is logical equivocation on the word "couple," and the fact that priests and bishops are being reduced to this sort of erroneous logic is one of the bad fruits of Fiducia Supplicans.

Lets say I am people watching with a friend while sitting on the sidewalk. A man and a woman are walking together in a romantic way (holding hands and kissing). This couple happens to be wearing matching clown suits. I say to my friend "Hey, look at that couple!" Here, I am referring to the two people as an entity, but what makes them an entity (their relationship) is almost entirely irrelevant. I want my friend to look at the two people. I do not want my friend to look at their relationship. Referring to them as a couple is merely a means of identifying the two people that I want my friend to look at.
Then you spoke imprecisely. If you saw two people walking who had no indication of being romantically involved, you would not have called them a couple. In that case you may have said, "Hey, look at those two."

But again, this is all rather irrelevant once we recognize that, in grouping same-sex couples with those who are in irregular (extramarital) relationships, the document is clearly thinking of a couple conceived as romantic, and as sinning in sexual matters.

When I read the document I did not interpret "blessing of couples" to mean a blessing of that which unifies the couple in the slightest.
Consider the very fact that you described the clown-couple as romantically involved before referring to them as a "couple." The friend you were speaking to would have been directed to the couple, and he would have assumed that you were assuming their romantic involvement. If you really disagreed with me, then you would have given the case of, say, a mother holding her son's hand as they crossed the street, and called them "a couple." But you didn't do this because it would obviously be deeply incongruous. We never describe a mother and her son that way.

And again, the document is obviously not referring to two people who are not romantically involved.

For what is worth, as matter of prudence the document does not strike me as a great idea. It is not something that I would recommend or permit myself were I pope.
Okay, but why?! If there is nothing incongruous about the language, or problematic about the logic, then why in the world would you not recommend or permit such a thing on your own authority?
 
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zippy2006

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I actually get the chain gang example. I wonder if those who read that example and still try to discredit that example are trying to be obtuse for the heck of it now.
Two simple questions should dismiss this example:
  1. Is blessing a chain gang like blessing a married couple?
  2. Is a same-sex couple in a civil union more like a married couple, or more like a chain gang?

Or else:
  1. Is blessing a chain gang like blessing an opposite-sex couple that is dating?
  2. Is a same-sex couple that is dating more like an opposite-sex couple that is dating, or more like a chain gang?

Being a criminal does not exclude one from being blessed, for we distinguish between the sinner and the sin. Again, "There is a difference between a couple and an individual" (link). The relevant parallel is not a chain gang, but rather a crime ring. A priest could no more bless a crime ring than he could bless a same-sex couple, for in both cases the union which is inseparable from the related persons is sinful. Cardinal Muller already spoke of blessing the mafia, which would be another relevant parallel. At the very least the persons need to be related to one another in an intentional manner. There is nothing intentional about the relations between members of a chain gang. Indeed, the members of a chain gang are operating in an unintentional and involuntary manner, for they are being coerced into the chain gang.

Or if we want to be philosophically precise, the union that unites a chain gang is coercive-work-as-punishment-for-crime, whereas the union that unites a crime ring is freely-chosen-cooperation-in-order-to-commit-crime. The latter is sinful; the former is not. The union of a chain gang therefore presents no impediment to a blessing.
 
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IcyChain

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Okay, fair enough.


A couple and the couple's union are notionally distinct, but every time you talk about the couple you are also talking about their union. This is why the priest's approach makes no sense. It is not possible to bless a couple without blessing their union. That "attribute of being in a relationship" is not separable from the couple. Once you separate it, the couple itself dissolves and becomes non-existent. Once the attribute goes away, the two are no longer a couple.


There is no union in this case. Having commonalities does not mean that they possess a romantic or intentional union. A union vis-a-vis romantic coupling is a mutually intentional relation. The prisoners do not have this. Similarly, if a priest drives by a bus stop and silently blesses the two people waiting for the bus, he has not blessed a couple. Instead he has blessed two individuals simultaneously. If he knows the bus is running late and he blesses them for the sake of patience, then he has blessed two people in a similar situation, not a couple.

In all of these cases what is occurring is logical equivocation on the word "couple," and the fact that priests and bishops are being reduced to this sort of erroneous logic is one of the bad fruits of Fiducia Supplicans.


Then you spoke imprecisely. If you saw two people walking who had no indication of being romantically involved, you would not have called them a couple. In that case you may have said, "Hey, look at those two."

But again, this is all rather irrelevant once we recognize that the document, in grouping same-sex couples with those who are in irregular (extramarital) relationships, the document is clearly thinking of a couple conceived as romantic, and as sinning in sexual matters.


Consider the very fact that you described the clown-couple as romantically involved before referring to them as a "couple." The friend you were speaking to would have been directed to the couple, and he would have assumed that you were assuming their romantic involvement. If you really disagreed with me, then you would have given the case of, say, a mother holding her son's hand as they crossed the street, and called them "a couple." But you didn't do this because it would obviously be deeply incongruous. We never describe a mother and her son that way.

And again, the document is obviously not referring to two people who are not romantically involved.


Okay, but why?! If there is nothing incongruous about the language, or problematic about the logic, then why in the world would you not recommend or permit such a thing on your own authority?

Two simple questions should dismiss this example:
  1. Is blessing a chain gang like blessing a married couple?
  2. Is a same-sex couple in a civil union more like a married couple, or more like a chain gang?

Or else:
  1. Is blessing a chain gang like blessing an opposite-sex couple that is dating?
  2. Is a same-sex couple that is dating more like an opposite-sex couple that is dating, or more like a chain gang?

Being a criminal does not exclude one from being blessed, for we distinguish between the sinner and the sin. Again, "There is a difference between a couple and an individual" (link). The relevant parallel is not a chain gang, but rather a crime ring. A priest could no more bless a crime ring than he could bless a same-sex couple, for in both cases the union which is inseparable from the related persons is sinful. Cardinal Muller already spoke of blessing the mafia, which would be another relevant parallel. At the very least the persons need to be related to one another in an intentional manner. There is nothing intentional about the relations between members of a chain gang. Indeed, the members of a chain gang are operating in an unintentional and involuntary manner, for they are being coerced into the chain gang.
Maybe I will respond to this later but for the moment I do not feel like continuing this back-and-forth. Have a nice day.
 
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Michie

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Bishops of Kazakstan

'To bless couples in an irregular situation and same-sex couples is a serious abuse of the most Holy Name of God, since this name is invoked upon an objectively sinful union of adultery or of homosexual activity.'

Bishops of Ukraine

'We see the danger in ambiguous wording that causes divergent interpretations among the faithful. What we missed in the document is that the Gospel calls sinners to conversion, and without a call to leave the sinful life of homosexual couples, the blessing may look like an approval. '

Bishops of Zambia

'In order to avoid any pastoral confusion and ambiguity as well as not to break the law of our country which forbids same sex unions and activities, and while listenig to our cultural heritage which does not accept same sex relationships, the Conference guides that the Declaration from the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith of December 18th 2023 concerning the blessing of same-sex couples be taken as for further reflection and not for implementation in Zambia.'

Bishops of Malawi


Continued below.
 
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Wolseley

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Bishops of Kazakstan

'To bless couples in an irregular situation and same-sex couples is a serious abuse of the most Holy Name of God, since this name is invoked upon an objectively sinful union of adultery or of homosexual activity.'

Bishops of Ukraine

'We see the danger in ambiguous wording that causes divergent interpretations among the faithful. What we missed in the document is that the Gospel calls sinners to conversion, and without a call to leave the sinful life of homosexual couples, the blessing may look like an approval. '

Bishops of Zambia

'In order to avoid any pastoral confusion and ambiguity as well as not to break the law of our country which forbids same sex unions and activities, and while listenig to our cultural heritage which does not accept same sex relationships, the Conference guides that the Declaration from the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith of December 18th 2023 concerning the blessing of same-sex couples be taken as for further reflection and not for implementation in Zambia.'

Bishops of Malawi


Continued below.


Now you know why St. John Paul II said he believed the future of the Catholic Church would come from Africa. ;)
 
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Michie

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Now you know why St. John Paul II said he believed the future of the Catholic Church would come from Africa. ;)
Yes I remember that.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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Now you know why St. John Paul II said he believed the future of the Catholic Church would come from Africa. ;)
No, they're clearly all Protestants, bro.
 
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Chrystal-J

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The Pope is leading people astray with his double speak.

17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naïve. Romans 16:17-18
 
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