Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

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Trento

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The following is the view of a Greek Orthodox priest, who is part of the Orthodox Research Institute. I'd share the link but I don't think that's allowed anymore. The whole article is extensive but it simply develops these thoughts more fully. The Father is exploring the text about Jesus, the "keys," Peter's Confession and Peter and the concept of "pope." I found it interesting and perhaps worthy of an ecumenical discussion...





Now let us see what we can learn from the original account of the events in question:

(a) We should first consider that passage from the Gospel according to St. Matthew upon which the Roman Catholics base the primacy of St. Peter. Our Lord was at Caesarea of Philippi (Matt. 16) when He asked His Disciples: “Whom do men say that I am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist; some, Elias and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, but whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art Christ the Son of the Living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for the flesh and blood hath not revealed it into thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:13-18)

It is quite evident from these words of our Lord that He built His Church not upon Peter for then He would have clearly said, “Thou art Peter and upon thee I will build my Church,” but upon the rock of the true Faith which Peter confessed. Christ our Lord clearly said that His Church is built upon the truth which Peter declared that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. Only through considerable distortion of the text can one draw the conclusion of the Roman Catholics, that Christ built the Church upon Peter.

(b) It is also clear from the Scriptures that St. Peter had no authority over the Apostles. In his Epistle to the Galatians, St. Paul states that when he saw Peter was not thinking correctly, he corrected him in the presence of others, “But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.” (Gal. 2:11) Further down St. Paul elaborates by saying, “ . . . when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all) if thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” (Gal. 2:14) On the basis of these words of St. Paul we may justly question, “Is there even a trace of recognition here of Peter’s authority to teach without the possibility of error?”

(c) Concerning the foundation of the Christian Church in Rome there is authoritative testimony that it was not accomplished by St. Peter. It was established by Christians who settled in Rome. Moreover, St. Paul considered it his Church. He mentioned this in his epistle to the Romans, “. . . from Jerusalem and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation ... for which, cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey.” (Rom. 15:19-20, 22-23)

From this passage, therefore, we clearly see that St. Paul had no knowledge that Peter was in Rome or that St. Peter had founded the Church there. On the contrary, he says that he feels obliged to preach the gospel where no other Apostle taught so that he would not build upon the foundation laid by another. Surely this is an explicit testimony that St. Peter was in no way connected with the foundation of the Church of Rome. Actually St. Peter served the Church for many years in Antioch, as verified by St. Jerome, and then went to Rome where he suffered martyrdom with St. Paul.

(d) In conclusion it should be pointed out that the order of precedence given to the Apostolic Sees was determined exclusively by the political importance of various cities. The Bishop of Rome was recognized as first because Rome was capital of the empire, nothing more. Originally, the Bishop of Constantinople was designated as second by the Second Ecumenical Council. Subsequently, when Constantinople became the capital of the Byzantine Empire and was referred to as New Rome, the Fourth Ecumenical Council proclaimed the Bishop of Constantinople equal in rank with the Bishop of Rome.





Comments?



Pax!


- Josiah





.



Opinions - opinions and more opinions -----Let's take a look at what modern Orthodox scholars do concede to the Catholic understanding of papal primacy, authority, and infallibility.

Taken from THE PRIMACY OF PETER : Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church edited by John Meyendorff (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992

1) There is no systematic doctrine of Church government in the Orthodox Church and therefore it is not enough to refute Universal Primacy
"As we study the problem of primacy in general, and especially the primacy of Rome, we must not be ruled by polemical motives: the problem is to be solved to satisfy ourselves and Orthodox theology. The solution of the problem is urgent, since Orthodox theology has not yet built up any systematic doctrine on Church government. And although we have a doctrine concerning Ecumenical Councils as organs of government in the Church, we shall see presently that our doctrine is not enough to refute the Catholic doctrine of primacy." (Afanassieff, page 92)
========================================================================
(2) The earliest Fathers recognized the primacy of Rome (or what might be called "priority") and Orthodox scholars generally concede this
on ST. CLEMENT OF ROME (c. 96 AD)
"Let us turn to the facts. We know that the Church of Rome took over the position of 'church-with-priority' at the end of the first century. That was about the time at which her star ascended into the firmament of history in its brightest splendor...Even as early as the Epistle to the Romans, Rome seems to have stood out among all the churches as very important. Paul bears witness that the faith of the Romans was proclaimed throughout the whole world (Rom 1:8)....we have a document which gives us our earliest reliable evidence that the Church of Rome stood in an exceptional position of authority in this period. This is the epistle of Clement of Rome...We know that Clement was 'president' of the Roman Church...." (page 124)
"The epistle is couched in very measured terms, in the form of an exhortation; but at the same time it clearly shows that the Church of Rome was aware of the decisive weight, in the Church of Corinth's eyes, that must attach to its witness about the events in Corinth. So the Church of Rome, at the end of the first century, exhibits a marked sense of its own priority, in point of witness about events in other churches. Note also that the Roman Church did not feel obliged to make a case, however argued, to justify its authoritative pronouncements on what we should now call the internal concerns of other churches. There is nothing said about the grounds of this priority....Apparently Rome had no doubt that its priority would be accepted without argument." (page 125-126)
on ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (c. 110 AD)
"We find the first direct evidence about the priority of the Roman Church in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch. Speaking of the Church of Rome, Ignatius uses the phrase 'which presides' in two passages.... The Roman Church 'presides' in love, that is, in the concord based on love between all the local churches. The term 'which presides' [Greek given] needs no discussion; used in the masculine it means the bishop, for he, as head of the local church, sits in the 'first place' at the eucharistic assembly, that is, in the central seat. He is truly the president of his church...[Ignatius] pictured the local churches grouped, as it were, in a eucharistic assembly, with every church in its special place, and the church of Rome in the chair, sitting in the 'first place.' So, says Ignatius, the Church of Rome indeed has the priority in the whole company of churches united by concord....In his period no other church laid claim to the role, which belonged to the Church of Rome." (page 126-127)
on ST. IRENAEUS (c. 180 AD)
"We shall find other evidence about the Roman position in Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons. His -Adversus Heareses- contains a famous passage, which has provoked a great many arguments. This is unquestionably the most important document of all with regard to the position of the Roman Chuch....Irenaeus calls on Apostolic Tradition to correct the mistaken heretics. This Tradition, he says, is guarded in every local church by the succession of bishops. It was not in his power to find proof of this in each local church, so he confines himself to one set of bishops only, and enumerates the bishops of Rome, a church in which Apostolic Tradition and the Faith proclaimed to mankind have been guarded up to his own times....Irenaeus believed he could confine himself to enumerating the succession in a single church, viz. the Roman Church, although he might have enumerated the successive bishops in every local church, as he says himself. He gives his own explanation for choosing the Church of Rome: he saw it as
'the very great and the very ancient church, known to all, which the two most glorious apostles Peter and Paul founded and constituted.'
"...Irenaeus insists that anyone looking for the truth can find it in the Tradition of the Apostles, which every local church has preserved. So we must suppose he thought that the Apostolic Tradition and the Faith proclaimed to mankind were preserved in the Roman Church more fully than in others, or, at least, in a more manifest way. Later, Irenaeus points to this Church -- Rome -- as the one to which all other churches must -convenire-....I think a likelier sense of -convenire- here is 'address oneself to,' 'turn to,' 'have recourse to.' The sense of the remark would then be: every local church should have recourse to the Church of Rome....This passage in Irenaeus [from Against Heresies 3:4:1] illuminates the meaning of his remarks about the Church of Rome: if there are disputes in a local church, that church should have recourse to the Roman Church, for there is contained the Tradition which is preserved by all the churches."
"Rome's vocation [in the "pre-Nicene period"] consisted in playing the part of arbiter, settling contentious issues by witnessing to the truth or falsity of whatever doctrine was put before them. Rome was truly the center where all converged if they wanted their doctrine to be accepted by the conscience of the Church. They could not count upon success except on one condition -- that the Church of Rome had received their doctrine -- and refusal from Rome predetermined the attitude the other churches would adopt. There are numerous cases of this recourse to Rome...." (page 128f, 133)
on ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 250 AD)
"...according to his doctrine there should have really been one single bishop at the head of the Universal Church....According to Cyprian, every bishop occupies Peter's throne (the Bishop of Rome among others) but the See of Peter is Peter's throne -par excellence-. The Bishop of Rome is the direct heir of Peter, whereas the others are heirs only indirectly, and sometimes only by the mediation of Rome. Hence Cyprian's insistence that the Church of Rome is the root and matrix of the Catholic Church [Ecclesiae catholicae matricem et radicem]. The subject is treated in so many of Cyprian's passages that there is no doubt: to him, the See of Rome was -ecclesia principalis unde unitas sacerdotalis exorta est- [the Principal Church from which the unity of the priesthood/episcopacy has its rise]." (page 98-99)
========================================================================
(3) There is no doubt that an objective study of the evidence yields the conclusion that the Catholic Church believed in Universal Primacy, had an Ecumenical center of unity and agreement in Rome, and the unanimous testimony of the Fathers and Councils demonstrates this -- and to deny this is based purely on "anti-Roman prejudice"
"Finally we come to the highest and ultimate form of primacy: universal primacy. An age-long anti-Roman prejudice has led some Orthodox canonists simply to deny the existence of such primacy in the past or the need for it in the present. But an objective study of the canonical tradition cannot fail to establish beyond any doubt that, along with local 'centers of agreement' or primacies, the Church has also known a universal primacy....
"It is impossible to deny that, even before the appearance of local primacies, the Church from the first days of her existence possessed an ecumenical center of unity and agreement. In the apostolic and the Judaeo-Christian period, it was the Church of Jerusalem, and later the Church of Rome -- 'presiding in agape,' according to St. Ignatius of Antioch. This formula and the definition of the universal primacy contained in it have been aptly analyzed by Fr. Afanassieff and we need not repeat his argument here. Neither can we quote here all the testimonies of the Fathers and the Councils unanimously acknowledging Rome as the senior church and the center of ecumenical agreement.
"It is only for the sake of biased polemics that one can ignore these testimonies, their consensus and significance. It has happened, however, that if Roman historians and theologians have always interpreted this evidence in juridical terms, thus falsifying its real meaning, their Orthodox opponents have systematically belittled the evidence itself. Orthodox theology is still awaiting a truly Orthodox evaluation of universal primacy in the first millennium of church history -- an evaluation free from polemical or apologetic exaggerations." (Schmemann, page 163-164)
 

CaliforniaJosiah

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modern Orthodox scholars do concede to the Catholic understanding of papal primacy, authority, and infallibility.


Read this from the Orthodox Father...

In conclusion it should be pointed out that the order of precedence given to the Apostolic Sees was determined exclusively by the political importance of various cities. The Bishop of Rome was recognized as first because Rome was capital of the empire, nothing more. Originally, the Bishop of Constantinople was designated as second by the Second Ecumenical Council. Subsequently, when Constantinople became the capital of the Byzantine Empire and was referred to as New Rome, the Fourth Ecumenical Council proclaimed the Bishop of Constantinople equal in rank with the Bishop of Rome.

.



And, no, the EO does not agree with the 1870 Catholic Denomination DOGMA of the Infalliblity of the Roman Pontiff.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.
 
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Yarddog

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The following is the view of a Greek Orthodox priest, who is part of the Orthodox Research Institute. I'd share the link but I don't think that's allowed anymore. The whole article is extensive but it simply develops these thoughts more fully. The Father is exploring the text about Jesus, the "keys," Peter's Confession and Peter and the concept of "pope." I found it interesting and perhaps worthy of an ecumenical discussion...

Hello Josiah,

I don't know what this may spark but I was blessed by God to understand the "Keys".

A few years ago, I was involved in a discussion with a woman about consulting spirits of the dead. I began to pray about this and the Holy Spirit came upon me and I began to pray in the Spirit. All sorts of wonderous praise for the Father was pouring forth. This went on for a period of time when suddenly God said, "The key is the cross or the cross is the key", I'm not sure now which way it went but the meaning is the same. God also gave me the knowledge that this revlation apllied to Matthew 16.

The revelation hit me like a sledge hammer and shook me out of my prayer. I wasn't sure exactly how this applied to what Matthew had said so I began to pray to find a greater clarity. I received nothing. As the day went on I continued to pray searching for the answer but still nothing came.

Later, I decided to start a thread on a Christian forum and ask for help. As I began to type out my request the Spirit began to let me know that that wasn't what God wanted of me. After more prayer I decided to look through the scriptures to try and see exactly what was said about "keys."

I began to see that keys were about access, opening or closing. Suddenly God gave me a vision. I saw a cross in a field. A large hand then reached down and picked up the cross by its base. It then lifted the cross up and turned it onto its side and inserted it into the lock of a huge door, turn it and unlocked the door. The door then opened.

I then understood. Jesus is the door and the cross is our key to open the door. The keys of Matthew were the cross.

Then something else came to my mind. If Jesus had given the keys to the Apostles in Matthew 16 and 18, why did Judas receive them? But when I reread the scripture something popped out at me.
Matthew 16: 19 I [will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus didn't give the keys to Peter in Matt. 16:19 he said I will give you the keys. Why? Because he hadn't gone to the cross yet. The Apostles and all the believers received the cross after Jesus' death just as Jesus gives the cross to those that truely have faith.

In the cross, we have the key that opens the door into heaven.



Judas didn't receive anything because he dies before the cross.


God Bless,
Yarddog
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Trento modern Orthodox scholars do concede to the Catholic understanding of papal primacy, authority, and infallibility.
Read this from the Orthodox Father...

In conclusion it should be pointed out that the order of precedence given to the Apostolic Sees was determined exclusively by the political importance of various cities. The Bishop of Rome was recognized as first because Rome was capital of the empire, nothing more. Originally, the Bishop of Constantinople was designated as second by the Second Ecumenical Council. Subsequently, when Constantinople became the capital of the Byzantine Empire and was referred to as New Rome, the Fourth Ecumenical Council proclaimed the Bishop of Constantinople equal in rank with the Bishop of Rome.

And, no, the EO does not agree with the 1870 Catholic Denomination DOGMA of the Infalliblity of the Roman Pontiff.

Thank you.
Pax
- Josiah
.
I believe that is the Orthodox view Josiah. :wave:
 
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Standing Up

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It is interesting to read people's opinions, especially when they coincide with Scripture.

The OP asserts that the rock in 'upon this rock I will build My church' is Peter's confession of faith. Most Protestants believe this as well. So how nice to see Peter himself confirm this.

1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

...

1 Peter 2:4-6 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For {this} is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER {stone,} AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

There's the confession of faith and assertion we too are living stones begin built up. As well, Paul in other scipture confirms this, saying we are built upon the foundation of OT prophets and NT apostles with Christ as the cornerstone. Eph 2:20.
 
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Rhamiel

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In conclusion it should be pointed out that the order of precedence given to the Apostolic Sees was determined exclusively by the political importance of various cities. The Bishop of Rome was recognized as first because Rome was capital of the empire, nothing more. Originally, the Bishop of Constantinople was designated as second by the Second Ecumenical Council. Subsequently, when Constantinople became the capital of the Byzantine Empire and was referred to as New Rome, the Fourth Ecumenical Council proclaimed the Bishop of Constantinople equal in rank with the Bishop of Rome.
oh cool, so now the Bishop of New York is the most important Bishop? lol
the EO seem to be overly fixated on the Political
they claim that at the council of Florance that the Emperor was the one who pushed for the reconciliation, all I have to say is, so? I mean there was a room full of Bishops, why would they listen to the Emperor?
Even today, listen to the praise for Vladimir Putin from many of the Russian Orthodox, it is unsettling
 
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Mikeb85

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From the Canons of the Council of Chalcedon (considered Ecumenical by both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church):

Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (ἴσα πρεσβεῖα) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.

From the Canons of a Council considered ecumenical by both our churches, it says that Rome was given Primacy because of her political situation, and that Constantinople was Rome's equal.
 
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Mikeb85

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oh cool, so now the Bishop of New York is the most important Bishop? lol
the EO seem to be overly fixated on the Political
they claim that at the council of Florance that the Emperor was the one who pushed for the reconciliation, all I have to say is, so? I mean there was a room full of Bishops, why would they listen to the Emperor?
Even today, listen to the praise for Vladimir Putin from many of the Russian Orthodox, it is unsettling

Actually, generally speaking, the Patriarch of Moscow is seen as the most important Orthodox Bishop, since the Russian church is by far the largest Church. The most important bishop is the one with the most responsibility, not one who seeks to replace kings and seeks power... St. John Chrysostom: "The desire to rule is the mother of all heresies."

As for Vladimir Putin, he's done great things for his country, and is a very popular leader among all Russians...
 
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boswd

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Actually, generally speaking, the Patriarch of Moscow is seen as the most important Orthodox Bishop, since the Russian church is by far the largest Church. The most important bishop is the one with the most responsibility, not one who seeks to replace kings and seeks power... St. John Chrysostom: "The desire to rule is the mother of all heresies."

As for Vladimir Putin, he's done great things for his country, and is a very popular leader among all Russians...

Oh wow that's interesting, I would have thought the Greek Orthodox would be the largest but I guess that makes sense due to the size of Russia and Russian immagrants throughout the world.

I grew up in a small town in upstate NY and there is a Russian Orthodox in a town of Herkimer, NY which I always thought was odd spot for it especially in an area where Luthern, Methodist and Catholic are by far the dominant Christian faiths. Beatiful Church by the way.

church.jpg
 
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Trento

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From the Canons of the Council of Chalcedon (considered Ecumenical by both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church):



From the Canons of a Council considered ecumenical by both our churches, it says that Rome was given Primacy because of her political situation, and that Constantinople was Rome's equal.


Canon 28, Chalcedon was struck from the Council documents. Bishop Anatolius of Constantinople writes to Pope Leo, apologizing and explaining how the canon came to be, saying ...
As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness. -- Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132 (on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon).
So, the matter was settled; and, for the next 6 centuries, Eastern churches speak of only 27 canons of Chalcedon -- the 28th Canon being rendered null and void ." This is supported by the Greek historians, such as Theodore the Lector (writing in 551 AD), John Skolastikas (writing in 550 AD), Dionysius Exegius (also around 550 AD); and by Roman Popes like Pope St. Gelasius (c. 495) and Pope Symmachus (c. 500) -- all of whom speak of only 27 Canons of Chalcedon.
 
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Mikeb85

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Lets face it everyone turns a blind eye to those in power as long as they push the agenda you want........

Such as our Western leaders who, under the false pretense of protecting a people from genocide, attacked a sovereign nation and created an extremist Islamic state in Europe (Kosovo). Or whom supported the illegal revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia, or who continue to support Turkey and refuse to recognize the genocide against Armenians, and the continued suppression of the Church... Who funnelled illegal arms to Islamists in Afghanistan (before 9/11 anyway), Chechnya, and is in bed with the Saudis, Kuwaitis, etc... Controlled Blunders Will Create the Islamic Empire And of course, Western leaders supported the criminal oligarchs who devasted the Russian economy after it's market reforms in the 1990's, and continues to attempt to undermine Russia, even arming rogue states. John Laughland: The Chechens' American friends | World news | The Guardian

In fact, as we speak, Georgia is being re-armed by the US, and planning round 2 with Russia. RIA Novosti - Russia - Medvedev says NATO exercises in Georgia 'open provocation' - 2 Turning a blind eye indeed...
 
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Mikeb85

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Canon 28, Chalcedon was struck from the Council documents. Bishop Anatolius of Constantinople writes to Pope Leo, apologizing and explaining how the canon came to be, saying ...
As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness. -- Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132 (on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon).
So, the matter was settled; and, for the next 6 centuries, Eastern churches speak of only 27 canons of Chalcedon -- the 28th Canon being rendered null and void ." This is supported by the Greek historians, such as Theodore the Lector (writing in 551 AD), John Skolastikas (writing in 550 AD), Dionysius Exegius (also around 550 AD); and by Roman Popes like Pope St. Gelasius (c. 495) and Pope Symmachus (c. 500) -- all of whom speak of only 27 Canons of Chalcedon.

NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Rhamiel

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Such as our Western leaders who, under the false pretense of protecting a people from genocide, attacked a sovereign nation and created an extremist Islamic state in Europe (Kosovo). Or whom supported the illegal revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia, or who continue to support Turkey and refuse to recognize the genocide against Armenians, and the continued suppression of the Church... Who funnelled illegal arms to Islamists in Afghanistan (before 9/11 anyway), Chechnya, and is in bed with the Saudis, Kuwaitis, etc... Controlled Blunders Will Create the Islamic Empire And of course, Western leaders supported the criminal oligarchs who devasted the Russian economy after it's market reforms in the 1990's, and continues to attempt to undermine Russia, even arming rogue states. John Laughland: The Chechens' American friends | World news | The Guardian

In fact, as we speak, Georgia is being re-armed by the US, and planning round 2 with Russia. RIA Novosti - Russia - Medvedev says NATO exercises in Georgia 'open provocation' - 2 Turning a blind eye indeed...
russia is trying to rebuild the Soviet Empire, the war with Georgia was used to take over oil and gas pipe lines, the "illegal" revolutions in the Ukraine and Georgia was so that they could get out from under the thumb of Russia, we are getting off topic though, I am sorry for encouraging getting off topic,
I think it is funny that a response to the horrors of russia is to point out the horrors of western nations, no one is acting like western nations are good, though I think some of your charges are trumped up
 
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Mikeb85

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russia is trying to rebuild the Soviet Empire, the war with Georgia was used to take over oil and gas pipe lines, the "illegal" revolutions in the Ukraine and Georgia was so that they could get out from under the thumb of Russia, we are getting off topic though, I am sorry for encouraging getting off topic,

Yes, that's why the current Ukrainian President, supported by the West, happens to be probably the least popular leader of any world power, has been stripped of most of his power by parliament, and according to a recent poll in the Ukraine, is the worst Ukrainian President of all-time. RIA Novosti - World - Ukrainians rate Yushchenko country's worst president - poll

And yes, Georgia is planning another war with Russia. Whether you believe me or not, it will happen... RIA Novosti - Russia - Medvedev says NATO exercises in Georgia 'open provocation' - 2
 
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