Pentagon Resuses to Yield to Muslims Re: Franklin Graham

crazyfingers

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Today at 08:32 AM Lanakila said this in Post #18

I believe we live in a former Christian Nation in a post modern Christian era.


Of course once the constitution was ratafied it became a non Christian nation.  YOu could proabably argie that the Colonies when they were part of the British Empire were part of a Christian nation but not after the COnstitution was ratified.
 
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crazyfingers

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Today at 08:35 AM Lanakila said this in Post #19

This isn't the forum to discuss the differences between Islam and Christianity crazyfingers.


Well, you did bring it up.

 

 But there are plenty. Jesus being the main difference. Or more correctly, who Jesus is, and what he did. No muslims in general don't believe in freedom, if you doubt it go be a muslim woman in Iran for awhile. There are countless, closed muslim countries. They are closed to Christianity, with the penalty of death, for converting muslims to Christianity. Man that is freedom!! Sarcasm intended.


You could say the same for Christian Europe when Christanity ruled.  You could say the same for the early puritanical collonies in the Americas.

Is it that Christianity changed or is it that Church and State were separated?  I suspect that it's the latter.  And that's what many the "Muslim" countries need: Sepatation of chruch and state, not Christianity.

 
 
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cenimo

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Franklin Geaham is referring to the faction of Islam that has vowed to kill all "infidels", i.e., non-Muslims. If the rest of the Muslims were as sincere about being a peace-loving religion as they tell us they are, they would attempt to clean up their own house. That's not what we've seen happening. "Islam is a religion of peace". "Suicide bombers today..." ad nauseam...
When people, especially any of our own people, (US and Chrisitan) have a problem with Franklin Graham identifying evil as evil, something is defintiely awry somewhere, and it's not on Franklin Graham's side of things.
 
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Starscream

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Yesterday at 07:43 PM blindfaith said this in Post #16

Starscream,

If it was a Muslim holiday and FG was asked to speak, you'd have an argument.


Actually, that's a different argument as far as I'm concerned...

  Good Friday is a Christian "holiday", therefore a Christian was asked to pray.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.


I object to their particual choice in a Christian.  They could have found scores of other Christians to perform the service that doesn't have such a bee in his bonnet over Islam.

My point is that the pentagon is saying something to the Muslim world when they choose someone who hates Islam.

If a Muslim were asked to pray at Good Friday services, it wouldn't go over well at all (to say the least). 


But let's imagine a rabid fundematalist anti-Christian, anti-Jewish Muslim was asked to perform a Pentagon-sponsored Ramadan service ... doesn't that make a difference?  Wouldn't that upset you just a tiny bit?  That's what I'm getting at.

It the same old 'do on to others' rule that I see routinely broken by those who preach it.
 
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Blindfaith

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Did those at the Pentagon listen to a prayer or the message of Christ's resurrection?

If the speaker is the main topic of discussion, then that means Christ's resurrection comes in second. Yuck.

I think that this thing is being blown wayyy out of proportion. And lets be honest ~ I seriously doubt that it would matter who was speaking at the Pentagon. Any Christian would do when it comes to the separation of church & state folks. Don't you think?

As with all preachers, ministers, priests, etc..., everything they teach needs to be held up against the Word of God. If the teaching is sound, great! If a person doesn't particularly like what they're hearing, they don't have to listen. ::shrug::
 
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Gerry

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Today at 12:09 PM crazyfingers said this in Post #20



Please provide the documentation that proclaims that the United States is a Christian nation.  THe fact is Gerry that this is a secular nation with a lot of Christians in it.



Some troops do and some don't.  However you'll note that I waid that I can live with the idea that some troops in the field need chaplains.



Why?  Please demonstrate why people who are in the pentagon and the military and this nation needs a god, your's in particular.

 




You do realize that saying it over and over and over does not make it true.

Since you reject God and mock those who believe in Him by always spelling His Name with a small "g", it is clear you will accept no documentation from even Him, much less me. So what would be my motive to supply you with anything you reject out of hand? On the other hand, I would love to discuss history with you, but again, history is apparently open to interpretation and you have already tipped your hand as to how you interprete it. Therefore the debate is rendered useless, since you never compromise, and I will certainly never compromise on the facts!

Now as far as you living with the troops in the field needing Chaplains, I can't speak for them, but I personally think that is very nice of you.

I will leave your thread now wishing for you a great day and a great life!!!

Happy Debating! :wave:
 
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cenimo

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Odd thing is, how many of those on this thread critical of Franklin Graham, if the situation were reversed and a Mulsim was going to speak, would be shouting, "Free speech, the speaker must be allowed free speech!"

Ye shall know them by their fruits
 
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crazyfingers

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Today at 05:21 PM Gerry said this in Post #26


Since you reject God and mock those who believe in Him by always spelling His Name with a small "g",


Actually, I don't use a small g to mock anyone.  I use a small g simply to make it clear that I do not believe in him/her/it.

 it is clear you will accept no documentation from even Him, much less me.

So what would be my motive to supply you with anything you reject out of hand? On the other hand, I would love to discuss history with you, but again, history is apparently open to interpretation and you have already tipped your hand as to how you interprete it. Therefore the debate is rendered useless, since you never compromise, and I will certainly never compromise on the facts!

In other words, you can not provide documentation to show that the United States is a Christian Nation.  Not a surprise given that there is none and it isn't. The US is a secilar nation with a lot of christians in it.

 
 
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mala

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Yesterday at 02:09 AM ScreaminEagle64 said this in Post #29

The United States was founded by men with strong Christian beliefs as reflected in their writings. So it was founded as a Christian nation and it still is one. The only problem is that many have chosen to forsake God and His commandments.


i just love it when people use things like that to prove a point.  it's like they're purposely digging a hole for themselves to crawl up and die in and ignoring that time marches on.

whether or not the us was founded to be a christian nation is irrelevant.  the colonies were founded to be tax holes for king and queens of europe but there were a few revolutions a while back pertianing to that topic.
 
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cenimo

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In other words, you can not provide documentation to show that the United States is a Christian Nation. Not a surprise given that there is none and it isn't. The US is a secilar nation with a lot of christians in it.

http://www.sandh.com/keyes/cnation.htm

Many of the writings of early justices, presidents, and founding fathers have been preserved. Rather than spout opinions about what they believed, let's just take a look at what they said.

First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay, wrote:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (1816)

Justice David Brewer said this:

"This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation ... We find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth ... These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. (1892)

As recently as 1952 Justice William O. Douglas wrote:

"We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."

Even liberal Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, wrote in 1954:

"I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses ... Whether we look to the first Charter of Virginia ... or to the Charter of New England ... or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay ... or to the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut ... the same objective is present ... a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people ... I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country."

Supreme Court justices were certainly not the only political figures who wrote such things either. George Washington wrote a prayer addressed to "O most glorious God, in Jesus Christ" and ended it like this:

"... Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy word ... Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life. Bless, O Lord, all the people of this land."

Washington also said:

"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

John Adams wrote:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with passions unbridled by morality and religion."

"Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand."

Thomas Jefferson, the man "blamed" for the wall of separation between church and state said:

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?"

"No power over the freedom of religion [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution."

James Madison:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

John Quincy Adams:

"The greatest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

"No book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied, and so profoundly meditated upon as the Bible."

"Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the Foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"

Abraham Lincoln:

"Unless the great God who assisted [President Washington], shall be with me and aid me, I must fail. But if the same omniscient mind, and Almighty arm, that directed and protected him, shall guide and support me, I shall not fail ... Let us pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now."

Grover Cleveland:

"All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidelity to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship."

Teddy Roosevelt:

"In this actual world, a churchless community, a community where men have abandoned and scoffed at, or ignored their religious needs, is a community on the rapid down-grade."

Woodrow Wilson:

"America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture."

Calvin Coolidge, speaking of the founding fathers:

"They were intent upon establishing a Christian commonwealth in accordance with the principle of self-government. They were an inspired body of men. It has been said that God sifted the nations that He might send choice grain into the wilderness ... Who can fail to see it in the hand of Destiny? Who can doubt that it has been guided by a Divine Providence?"

John F. Kennedy:

"The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God."

Gerald Ford, quoted a speech made by Dwight Eisenhower in 1955:

"Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first--the most basic--expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of America saw it, and thus with God's help, it will continue to be."

Secularists have tried to revise and rewrite history. Public schooled kids have not been taught about the Christian heritage of our country for two generations. Textbooks have left out references to God, the Bible, and Christianity.

Norm Winick, editor of the "Zephyr" newspaper recently added his name to the list of those who doubt that America was ever Christian in the aforementioned article he ran (ironically) on July 4th entitled "The Founders: A Distinction Between Morality and Religion."

Dr. Dobson states that one "objective of the revisionists is to convince the American people that Christians, specifically those with conservative inclinations, are in violation of the Constitution whenever they advocate their views beyond the front doors of their sanctuaries. Liberal activists would have us believe our founding fathers were terrified at the prospect of Christians participating in the political process. This led them, we're told, to protect the government from religious meddling. But no such provision appears in the Constitution or any of the foundational documents. The principle of separation of church and state is found only in one of Jefferson's letters,(1) and referred, not to the exclusion of religious people from government, but to the protection of religion from governmental interference. Now Jefferson's personal comment in that private letter, which was never endorsed or ratified by Congress or the electorate, has been twisted in its meaning and given the weight of constitutional law."

Dobson continues: "The second objective of the revisionists is to convince the American people that Christians, specifically those with conservative inclinations, are in violation of the Constitution whenever they advocate their views beyond the front doors of their sanctuaries. Liberal activists would have us believe our founding fathers were terrified at the prospect of Christians participating in the political process. This led them, we're told, to protect the government from religious meddling. But no such provision appears in the Constitution or any of the foundational documents. The principle of separation of church and state is found only in one of Jefferson's letters,(1) and referred, not to the exclusion of religious people from government, but to the protection of religion from governmental interference. Now Jefferson's personal comment in that private letter, which was never endorsed or ratified by Congress or the electorate, has been twisted in its meaning and given the weight of constitutional law."

Dobson goes on to say "Speaking of Christian-bashing, the third strategy of the secularists is to embarrass, insult, shout down and mischaracterize conservative Christians, hoping to intimidate them into silence. The names 'radical right,' 'far right,' 'extreme right' and 'Christian right' are part of the effort to marginalize and demoralize those with traditional views. (When is the last time you heard homosexual activists or abortionists referred to as the 'Radical Left?')"

"A classic example of this strategy occurred after the tragic bombing in Oklahoma City in 1995. Unbelievably, the media and some politicians immediately blamed the blast on people of faith -- especially those who fight for the unborn child. Michael Lind, writing in The Washington Post, made that forced connection between the bombers and pro-lifers. He wrote, 'The story of Oklahoma City and the militias should not make us forget that the main form of political terrorism in the United States is perpetuated by right wing opponents of abortion.'" (2)

The Supreme Court ruling in the case of McDaniel vs. Patyark back in 1978 should make clear that Christians still have the same rights as everyone else whether we are or were a Christian nation or not:

"The Establishment Clause does not license government to treat religion, and those who teach or practice it, simply by virtue of their status as such, as subversive of American ideals and therefore subject to unique disabilities ... In short, government may not as a goal promote "safe-thinking" with respect to religion and fence out from political participation those, such as ministers, whom it regards as over-involved in religion. Religionists no less than members of any other group enjoy the full measure of protection afforded speech, association, and political activity generally. The Establishment Clause, properly understood, is a shield against any attempt by government to inhibit religion ... it may not be used as a sword to justify repression of religion or its adherents from any aspect of public life."

Dr. Dobson says, "It couldn't have been said much more clearly. Nothing short of tyranny can take away our right to be heard, to campaign for what we believe, to participate in the political process, and to oppose that which we see as wrong or immoral. We will not be intimidated or censored. I urge you to continue working for the values to which you are committed, whether popular or not. Don't let anyone, Christian or pagan, deny you your right to voice your opinions."

President Woodrow Wilson said it best: "America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture." I feel like I am in pretty good company to believe that America was Christian. The debate could rage as to whether we still are or not, but it seems perfectly clear to me that we were Christian in the beginning and remained so until the 1950's.
 
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crazyfingers

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So you quote a web page from Alan Keys? Have you even read it?

I think that you need to actually read what was written.  It quotes Jefferson saying

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?"

"No power over the freedom of religion [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution."


How does that support the idea that the is a Christian nation? It doesn't. Especially when Jefferson was a Deist.  :D

And, by the way, you know that this quote is a fabrication? 

James Madison:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government...[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."


Madison NEVER SAID IT.. That quote is a LIE.  :D

Sorry cenimo. It fails.  And that was only what I spotted in 2 minutes looking at it.  :D :D

 

 


 

 
 
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cenimo

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Yup, I read it.I see . first you want documentation then you challenge it. You going to make me put up the Supreme Court judge's decision from 1859 now? or was it 1889? Whatever.

America was founded on God, guns, and guts. Let's keep all three.
 
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D. Scarlatti

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cenimo "said"
First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay, wrote:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (1816)


"… no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 3

I'll take the text of the Constitution over John Jay's unsourced musings, thank you very much.

cenimo "said"
Justice David Brewer said this:

"This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation ... We find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth ... These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. (1892)


Ah, good old Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892).

The above excerpt has nothing to do with the Court's holding. In fact, it's barely dicta, and Brewer's fatuous declaration has been referred to as an "aberration" by none other than Antonin Scalia:

"And I will further concede that our constitutional tradition, from the Declaration of Independence and the first inaugural address of Washington, quoted earlier, down to the present day, has, with a few aberrations, see Church of Holy Trinity v. United States [citations omitted] ruled out of order government-sponsored endorsement of religion …" Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 641 (1992).

Another interesting reference to Holy Trinity appears in Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984), in which William Brennan wrote:

"By insisting that such a distinctively sectarian message is merely an unobjectionable part of our 'religious heritage,' [citation omitted] the Court takes a long step backwards to the days when Justice Brewer could arrogantly declare for the Court that 'this is a Christian nation.'" Id. at 717.

cenimo "said"
As recently as 1952 Justice William O. Douglas wrote:

"We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being."


This is from Zorach v. Clausen, 343 U.S. 306 (1952). Douglas also wrote:

"We guarantee the freedom to worship as one chooses. We make room for as wide a variety of beliefs and creeds as the spiritual needs of man deem necessary. We sponsor an attitude on the part of government that shows no partiality to any one group and that lets each flourish according to the zeal of its adherents and the appeal of its dogma." Id. at 318.

Christian nation? Not exactly. Anyway, Zorach v. Clausen was overruled, and is no longer controlling precedent.

cenimo "said"
Even liberal Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, wrote in 1954:

"… I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country"


Good for Earl Warren. None of this language appears in a Supreme Court opinion, by the way.

Several of your presidential quotations are dubious, even according to David Barton:

Wallbuilders: Unconfirmed Quotations

And nobody cares what James Dobson has to say about Constitutional law.
 
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D. Scarlatti

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eldermike said
I must not have voted on this one, I care.

Why? He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Speaking of Dobson, in the above excerpt, he asks:

"When is the last time you heard homosexual activists or abortionists referred to as the 'Radical Left?'"

"I hope you can see the correlation between the debate over the Ten Commandments to the ongoing controversy over gay rights. Both of these issues have come to the forefront not because the majority of the American public is in favor of granting special rights to homosexuals or abolishing the Ten Commandments, but because a small group of activists among the radical left is so adept at imposing their misguided agenda on the entire nation."
- James Dobson, typically parading his obsession with gays, February 2000.
 
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Yesterday at 06:17 PM cenimo said this in Post #33

America was founded on God, guns, and guts. Let's keep all three.

Wow. I find this to be a particularly disturbing slogan. Yuk.

 

But, anyway - my 2c on the topic:

Yes, Good Friday is a Christian holiday. And every Friday is the Muslim Sabbath. You are currently at war with Islam. You have a shocking track record, politically/diplomatically, with Islam. (And no, it's not ENTIRELY their fault - the U.S has much to answer for out there in the world, too). Franklin Graham hates Islam. Don't you think that during this particularly tense political time, it would be much more diplomatic to have a service (if one really MUST be held in your house of POLITICS) given by a preacher who is less antagonistic to Islam on what is also THEIR holy day?

 




 
 
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eldermike

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My last word on Dobson, I didn't meant to take this thread on a rabbit trail: Sorry.

I have never warmed up to geometric references, concerning opinions. The "right and left" are terms attempting to redefine right and wrong. If something is right, it's right, if it's wrong, it's wrong. A value system is required to make proper judgments concerning right and wrong. Any system that gives comfort to those that straddle the fence is not for me.
If a person believes that His position is right and stays in that position based upon a set of values, I am ok with that person. However, the value system must stand a test of simple reason.

Let me give an example: killing is wrong, But abortion is ok? This is not a value at all.
Another example: Marriage is a sacred institution of God but living together is ok. Here again, no value can be found.

I base my judgment of Dr Dobson on his consistent stand on values. And btw, anyone who does this will be loved and hated.
 
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