penal substitution verses Christus Victor

[Si_monfaith]

This has become an argument.
Love and blessings to you.

Didn't you make it an argument? Why blame others?

 

[Si_monfaith]

If that's the case then why do Christians die?

My earlier question: If Jesus didn't take death which was God's wrath meant to be upon us, why did He have to die on the cross?

Answer: 1)Why would people die inspite of Christ taking death upon Himself which was the consequence of God's wrath, if not for their unbelief in it (John 21:22, John11:26)? 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Is death for all?

New question to Butch5: Does christus victor theory (cvt) say God was making a demand because He was unable/unwilling to defeat sin, death & satan without sending Jesus to torture, suffering and death?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Didn't God curse the ground? Where do you see in Scripture that God's wrath needs to be appeased?

Didn't God curse the ground?

Did God curse only the ground? Didn't He curse Adam Eve in Genesis 3:16,17 saying "I WILL greatly multiply thy sorrow...?

Where do you see in Scripture that God's wrath needs to be appeased?

So was God bloodthirsty & making a demand because He was unable/unwilling to defeat sin, death & satan without sending Jesus to torture, suffering and death?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Didn't God curse the ground?

Didn't God curse Adam Eve in Genesis 3:16,17 saying "I WILL multiply thy sorrow...?"

Do you mean to say Christ's death was a payment to satan?

 

[Si_monfaith]

That's the question you have to answer.

You haven't yet, but all will

Don't you have to answer your proposition? If Jesus defeated sin by His death on the cross, why do all humans keep committing sin?

Yes, I am TOTALLY forgiven. I have the assurance because I didn't pay for them. What's your problem? Don't you have to answer this?

Is Gustav Aulen yet alive? Didn't Jesus defeat sin, death & satan the ruler of death, by His death on the cross for Gustav Aulen? So does your proposition carry no meaning?

 

[bling]

So why did God plan redemption even before He created the world as per 1 Peter1:18-20?

He knew what man would do in the and what he would need to do?

 

[Butch5]

Don't you have to answer your proposition? If Jesus defeated sin by His death on the cross, why do all humans keep committing sin?

Yes, I am TOTALLY forgiven. I have the assurance because I didn't pay for them. What's your problem? Don't you have to answer this?

Is Gustav Aulen yet alive? Didn't Jesus defeat sin, death & satan the ruler of death, by His death on the cross for Gustav Aulen? So does your proposition carry no meaning?

Do you understand what it means that He defeated sin? Sin isn't alive as though it could die. So what does it mean?

No, you didn't pay for them yet, you're still alive. The wages of sin is death.

No, he's not alive. However, if he was a believer he will one day be alive again.

 

[Butch5]

My earlier question: If Jesus didn't take death which was God's wrath meant to be upon us, why did He have to die on the cross?

Answer: 1)Why would people die inspite of Christ taking death upon Himself which was the consequence of God's wrath, if not for their unbelief in it (John 21:22, John11:26)? 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Is death for all?

New question to Butch5: Does christus victor theory (cvt) say God was making a demand because He was unable/unwilling to defeat sin, death & satan without sending Jesus to torture, suffering and death?

He died as a ransom. God didn't require a ransom of Himself.

People die because they sin. The question is, if Jesus death was to appease God. Why do Christians die? The wages of sin is death. Both believers and unbelievers die. If believing appeased God's wrath why does the believer die? This is also another one of the problems with Penal Atonement. However, probably the biggest issue is that we don't see it in the Church until the 1500's. It came from the Satisfaction Model which is the predecessor to the Penal model. But, even the Satisfaction Model didn't appear until about a thousand years after Christ.

 

[Butch5]

Didn't God curse Adam Eve in Genesis 3:16,17 saying "I WILL multiply thy sorrow...?"

Do you mean to say Christ's death was a payment to satan?

He said that. Is that wrath? Or, is it the consequence of their actions?

God didn't pay a ransom to Himself.


Irenaeus, Book 5, Chapter 1
Chapter 1. — Christ alone is able to teach divine things, and to redeem us: He, the same, took flesh of the Virgin Mary, not merely in appearance, but actually, by the operation of the Holy Spirit, in order to renovate us. Strictures on the conceits of Valentinus and Ebion.
1. For in no other way could we have learned the things of God, unless our Master, existing as the Word, had become man. For no other being had the power of revealing to us the things of the Father, except His own proper Word. For what other person “knew the mind of the Lord,” or who else “has become His counsellor?” Again, we could have learned in no other way than by seeing our Teacher, and hearing His voice with our own ears, that, having become imitators of His works as well as doers of His words, we may have communion with Him, receiving increase from the perfect One, and from Him who is prior to all creation. We — who were but lately created by the only best and good Being, by Him also who has the gift of immortality, having been formed after His likeness (predestinated, according to the prescience of the Father, that we, who had as yet no existence, might come into being), and made the first-fruits of creation — have received, in the times known beforehand, [the blessings of salvation] according to the ministration of the Word, who is perfect in all things, as the mighty Word, and very man, who, redeeming us by His own blood in a manner consonant to reason, gave Himself as a redemption for those who had been led into captivity. And since the apostasy tyrannized over us unjustly, and, though we were by nature the property of the omnipotent God, alienated us contrary to nature, rendering us its own disciples, the Word of God, powerful in all things, and not defective with regard to His own justice, did righteously turn against that apostasy, and redeem from it His own property, not by violent means, as the [apostasy] had obtained dominion over us at the beginning, when it insatiably snatched away what was not its own, but by means of persuasion, as became a God of counsel, who does not use violent means to obtain what He desires; so that neither should justice be infringed upon, nor the ancient handiwork of God go to destruction. Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God, — all the doctrines of the heretics fall to ruin.


Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Or you could just admit that there is nothing in Scripture that says Christ's death satisfied the wrath of God, nor is there anything that says His death was a payment to God. But, if you did that you'd have to change your doctrine and we surely can't have that.

Paul taught the gospel is the power of God to be a propitiation of the wrath of God revealed from heaven

 

[Butch5]

Paul taught the gospel is the power of God to be a propitiation of the wrath of God revealed from heaven

You know what's interesting about the Greek word Hilasterion? It's translated "mercy seat" in almost all occurrences except where propitiation fit the Reformers theology. Mercy seat fits everywhere it occurs. Mercy isn't appeasing God. it's God withholding what man deserves.

One of the problems in this discussion is that those who argue for Penal Atonement come to the table with the assumption that the Scriptures speak of appeasing God's wrath. But they never establish that from the Scriptures.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

You know what's interesting about the Greek word Hilasterion? It's translated "mercy seat" in almost all occurrences except where propitiation fit the Reformers theology. Mercy seat fits everywhere it occurs. Mercy isn't appeasing God. it's God withholding what man deserves.

One of the problems in this discussion is that those who argue for Penal Atonement come to the table with the assumption that the Scriptures speak of appeasing God's wrath. But they never establish that from the Scriptures.

Romans 1 does. It does not say the love of God is revealed from heaven, it says the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men, woman, jew gentile, all condemned unless the wrath is turned away

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

furthermore, the law of God has been broken ; gal 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

 

[Butch5]

Romans 1 does. It does not say the love of God is revealed from heaven, it says the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men, woman, jew gentile, all condemned unless the wrath is turned away

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

furthermore, the law of God has been broken ; gal 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Romams 1 says the wrath of God is revealed against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Where do you see that this wrath is required to be appeased? As I said, the presumption that God's wrath must be appeased is brought to the argument without having been proved.

This passage is one of three where the translators used propitiation rather than mercy seat. Mercy and propitiation are two different concepts. We know from the OT, and the Law of Moses what role the mercy seat played. Jesus is that mercy seat.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Butch5,

Thanks for the follow up question asking for clarification;

Romams 1 says the wrath of God is revealed against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Where do you see that this wrath is required to be appeased?

It is in the text...let's look;
Paul explains why he is looking to present the gospel of which he is NOT ASHAMED;
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Why is he preaching the Gospel, notice the next verse starts with;
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

As I said, the presumption that God's wrath must be appeased is brought to the argument without having been proved.[/QUOTE]
You said that but the first 3 chapters of Romans establishes that fact along with Isa 53, so you have to go out of your way to miss it.

This passage is one of three where the translators used propitiation rather than mercy seat. Mercy and propitiation are two different concepts. We know from the OT, and the Law of Moses what role the mercy seat played. Jesus is that mercy seat.[/QUOTE]

The blood is poured out on the mercy seat in heaven;
That is the whole point and necessity of PSA.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Si_monfaith]

He knew what man would do in the and what he would need to do?

So you believe in God's predestination & God's exhaustive foreknowledge?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Do you understand what it means that He defeated sin? Sin isn't alive as though it could die. So what does it mean?

No, you didn't pay for them yet, you're still alive. The wages of sin is death.

No, he's not alive. However, if he was a believer he will one day be alive again.

Do you understand what it means that He defeated sin? Sin isn't alive as though it could die. So what does it mean?

So what does "For without the law sin was dead (Romans 7:8)" mean?
And what does "sin sprang to life and I died (Romans 7:9)" mean?
Isn't your proposition "Sin isn't alive as though it could die" totally unbiblical?

No, you didn't pay for them yet, you're still alive. The wages of sin is death.

Bible never says if Jesus paid for my sins, my sins aren't forgiven by God. That is your absurd eisegesis.

Secondly, Aulen died even after Jesus defeated death by His death on the cross. Why? Did Aulen die to pay for his sins in order to earn resurrection from the dead?

 

[Si_monfaith]

He died as a ransom. God didn't require a ransom of Himself.

People die because they sin. The question is, if Jesus death was to appease God. Why do Christians die? The wages of sin is death. Both believers and unbelievers die. If believing appeased God's wrath why does the believer die? This is also another one of the problems with Penal Atonement. However, probably the biggest issue is that we don't see it in the Church until the 1500's. It came from the Satisfaction Model which is the predecessor to the Penal model. But, even the Satisfaction Model didn't appear until about a thousand years after Christ.

 

[Si_monfaith]

He died as a ransom. God didn't require a ransom of Himself.

People die because they sin. The question is, if Jesus death was to appease God. Why do Christians die? The wages of sin is death. Both believers and unbelievers die. If believing appeased God's wrath why does the believer die? This is also another one of the problems with Penal Atonement. However, probably the biggest issue is that we don't see it in the Church until the 1500's. It came from the Satisfaction Model which is the predecessor to the Penal model. But, even the Satisfaction Model didn't appear until about a thousand years after Christ.

He died as a ransom.

To whom was the ransom paid? Why didn't God defeat sin/death/satan without a ransom? Was He unwilling or unable or bloodthirsty?

People die because they sin

If Christians die because of sin, were the forgivenesses which Jesus offered in His ministry before He died on the cross was meaningless? Will those who were forgiven also die? So why He forgave them?

The question is, if Jesus death was to appease God. Why do Christians die?

Christians die because christus victor theory is destroying faith in the truth that Jesus has taken death, which is the consequence of God's wrath, upon Himself!!

Thus claiming Jesus defeated sin/death/satan while simultaneously denying death as the consequence of God's wrath is nonsense.

 

[Si_monfaith]

He said that. Is that wrath? Or, is it the consequence of their actions?

God didn't pay a ransom to Himself.


Irenaeus, Book 5, Chapter 1
Chapter 1. — Christ alone is able to teach divine things, and to redeem us: He, the same, took flesh of the Virgin Mary, not merely in appearance, but actually, by the operation of the Holy Spirit, in order to renovate us. Strictures on the conceits of Valentinus and Ebion.
1. For in no other way could we have learned the things of God, unless our Master, existing as the Word, had become man. For no other being had the power of revealing to us the things of the Father, except His own proper Word. For what other person “knew the mind of the Lord,” or who else “has become His counsellor?” Again, we could have learned in no other way than by seeing our Teacher, and hearing His voice with our own ears, that, having become imitators of His works as well as doers of His words, we may have communion with Him, receiving increase from the perfect One, and from Him who is prior to all creation. We — who were but lately created by the only best and good Being, by Him also who has the gift of immortality, having been formed after His likeness (predestinated, according to the prescience of the Father, that we, who had as yet no existence, might come into being), and made the first-fruits of creation — have received, in the times known beforehand, [the blessings of salvation] according to the ministration of the Word, who is perfect in all things, as the mighty Word, and very man, who, redeeming us by His own blood in a manner consonant to reason, gave Himself as a redemption for those who had been led into captivity. And since the apostasy tyrannized over us unjustly, and, though we were by nature the property of the omnipotent God, alienated us contrary to nature, rendering us its own disciples, the Word of God, powerful in all things, and not defective with regard to His own justice, did righteously turn against that apostasy, and redeem from it His own property, not by violent means, as the [apostasy] had obtained dominion over us at the beginning, when it insatiably snatched away what was not its own, but by means of persuasion, as became a God of counsel, who does not use violent means to obtain what He desires; so that neither should justice be infringed upon, nor the ancient handiwork of God go to destruction. Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God, — all the doctrines of the heretics fall to ruin.


Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

God didn't pay a ransom to Himself.

Why are you persistently elusive to answer as to whom the ransom was paid to? If God doesn't require the ransom, to whom was it paid?

He said that. Is that wrath? Or, is it the consequence of their actions?

The statement "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow" which was a consequence of their action doesn't need the wrathful heart of God to pronounce the deadly curses? Does the statement made "in the realm of time" come from God's heart like from a senseless robotic machine?

What does God's wrath in John 3:36 and many other verses mean? Are they also not involving the angry heart of God?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Butch5,

Thanks for the follow up question asking for clarification;



It is in the text...let's look;
Paul explains why he is looking to present the gospel of which he is NOT ASHAMED;
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Why is he preaching the Gospel, notice the next verse starts with;
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I'm not fighting for any particular atonement theory since there are at least 7 and each one holds some truth.

However, Romans 1:15-20 is not support for Jesus being used to calm God's wrath.

It states that God's wrath has been REVEALED against all ungodliness and all unrighteousness of men...BECAUSE God has made Himself manifest to man from the beginning of time and so man has no excuse.

It does NOT say that Jesus appeased this wrath.