Pastors asking for money

[Spiritlight]

What concerns me is in the hour and a half you go to church regular emphasis on money is taking up time in the service. I go to church I guess to hear about the lord and forget about finances. money depresses me it is a boring subject to me I only talk about it when I have to.

This is more just my personal preference I guess.

 

[CGL1023]

Hi I am writing here out of concern as i have been a member of a new church for about 8 months. our Pastor in it seems almost every service mentions giving money to the church and really emphasizes it. It come up far too frequently for my liking and concerns me a little. Sometimes it is for giving to people overseas in poor circumstances and I like that the church is in a position to give from the congregations resources to help less fortunate people to improve their standard of living and I like and support this.

Is it common for you guys in church to be prompted often in church services to extend your giving to the church. Maybe I am too cautious but am getting a little suspicious.

We are instructed to bring all the tithes into the storehouse that there may be food ...(Mal 3:10). The storehouse referred to is God's storehouse. This is not just any Church body. It is a Church body that is doing God's work. It is a body that casts out devils, speaks with other tongues, takes up serpents, not hurt by ingesting anything deadly, laying hands on the sick that they recover (Mark 16:15-18). This reflects gifts of the Spirit in operation. This is the body to sow the tithe into.

 

[SteveNZ]

Fascinating.

In the small churches I have been in we all pray and meet together, and sort out,
1- What do we feel we are to do for the Lord
2- What needs are around.
3- What costs do we have as a body.

Then see what we can afford and each consider what he/she/they can give. This takes a bit of prayer and even moaning at God at times. AND is is not only finance it is time and skills. Then the group has something like a finacial/social skill budget in place.

Knowing full well that things can change and God is the boss not us.

BUT a major part of this is to be responsible for any pastor/minister who is part of the team. We are expected to support them. Sometimes there will be a part time minister who can help support himself.

If anyone in the fellowship (pastor or whoever) has financial hassles we get together and help if we can.

I can see that this model can only work in a smaller church. In large churches the same thing is in place but generally with a committee of wise folk, listening to God (we hope), who organise things.

PROBLEM - What happens if a ministry goes a bit daft and say has a huge mortgage or debt, that it cannot fund. I have seen this! It was folk simply taking on an unwise 'prosperity doctrine' and advising the Lord he had better tow the line.
SOLUTION - You cry out 'HELP' as loud as you can to God. And you share, to all the church, '..this is what we have done, sorry..'.

* Prosperity Doctrine - I think the basic understanding is sound but often not our human prideful interpretation of that.

Hmmmmm ...... But I have heard some ministers, freaked out over debt, give unwise sermons (especially out of Malachi) and use such to force funds from others. I honestly find this no different to a company boss saying to staff .... work harder with less pay or get the sack. Even us Christians make mistakes. Some managers of large institutions simply can make 'large mistakes'.

Whatever the Lord calls you to do he shall fund.
What we, as frail humans, at times think is suitable for the Lord to fund - he may not. But he is still gracious.

 

[Spiritlight]

I thought about this later and maybe the answer is dream big, bite off more than you can chew, and chew with haste.

 

[parsley]

I think in some cases churches can get over extended financially forcing the pastor to over emphasize giving.

That's what it sounds like to me.
Some pastors are highly into faith and responding to what they feel God has asked them to do, without balancing that with sensible financial management. The church might have built the building "on faith" using one-time allocated donations for the downpayment, without any planning for ongoing payments. Many people will give extra for a cause, but they don't want to be hyped up to do the same thing repeatedly.

There is a rule of thumb that most pastors consider, which is only 10% of your congregation on average will tithe faithfully. The 10% that is collected is your churches hard budget. Anything given by the other 90% is not usually consistent, so you cant depend on it.

Sad and true. Some well-off people will give a token ten bucks -- more like admission than an offering.

What you can do though, if you're uneasy -- ask one of the elders if they can print out the budget for you. Non-profits are recommended to offer full disclosure to their members. If the elders refuse, then you can tell them you are concerned they have something to hide. If they give you a simplistic breakdown, like three divisions in a graph, then they are treating you like a child and should be challenged to disclose more. Gather a few more members and ask for a meeting with the board.

I'm guessing your concern is more about feeling weary of hearing it over and over when you're there for spiritual enrichment... and to that, I would just say that each person involved in church will have different concerns, and some need to be expressed more than others.

 

[Minister_C]

This has been a great discussion so far. What concerns me is the spirit of giving among believers. We have certainly seen quite a few pimps in the pulpit over the last 20 years. I am sure these incidents are enough to stifle any move to give. It amazes me how much FAITH we have in our God, and how little faith we have in His oversight. He has challenged you in Luke 6:38. Our blessing is tied to our giving. You wont receive your full blessing without giving. Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

I was speaking to a carnal minded man the other day. I was sharing with him my vision of where we needed to raise money, to support the ministry. Immediately his pimp radar comes on, and he gives me a sarcastic grin. He then began to explain to me how he was barely getting by and although he had a good job, he could only find 5 dolloars or so to give on a regular basis. I explained to him that when he finds it in his heart to be a cheerful giver, he will always have more than 10% to contribute.

 

[parsley]

It's tricky when the plea for money comes from one of the direct recipients. Some churches ask elders or members to deliver the sermons in stewardship, and some pastors refuse to look at the donation records so they don't treat members based on their giving.

There is a serious lack of tithing in churches, but there are also some messages on stewardship that embarrass and intimidate the poor and elderly. The original tithe was designed to help feed the poor, not to drive them to give more.

Tithing is a method God designed that helps keep some fairness in social levels, and ensures a place of worship will be available. If we resist out of fear of lining silk pockets, then we contribute to a society with wide expanses between rich and poor.

We create our own realities -- we can be part of a very wise plan to make sure the needy do not end up begging and robbing, and that makes sure church buildings do not decay and sit empty. It takes money to operate any organization.

Picture how people brag about recycling, buying local, reusing fabric shopping bags... to build a better community and future. The tithe is not much different.

 

[parsley]

As if I haven't said enough already...

I find that when tithing, half-invisible benefits come: the devourer is rebuked, and moth and rust don't consume. That's a hard thing to measure, but when it starts happening again, I know it! I don't get windfall amazing breakthroughs for tithing bc I've been doing it my whole life (and am not rolling in jewels and gold coins)... but I do clearly sense benefits and God's protection related to faithfulness. And things I wish to buy pop up incredibly cheap. Very often.

 

[SteveNZ]

We are instructed to bring all the tithes into the storehouse that there may be food ...(Mal 3:10). The storehouse referred to is God's storehouse. This is not just any Church body. It is a Church body that is doing God's work. It is a body that casts out devils, speaks with other tongues, takes up serpents, not hurt by ingesting anything deadly, laying hands on the sick that they recover (Mark 16:15-18). This reflects gifts of the Spirit in operation. This is the body to sow the tithe into.

Hi, I find that understanding of a tithe and what it is intended for difficult.

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. ...........
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house .........

The tithe was a specific gift, from specific people for a specific purpose. I do not think it is correct to try to translate that into contemporary times. Churches simply do not set up a temple, levitical preists, burned offering stand, animal sacrifice stands etc. Niether do they follow the sacrifices, redeeming offerings on these. NIETHER do they require any tithe, from the specific rural source, to serve such a set up.

BUT .... The idea of goodwill offerings is another matter. For those as gentile Christians (I cannot talk for Messianic Christians) we accept the understanding that of all our possessions belong to God. We choose to follow him and ......

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When we love in the way Jesus sets out we,
- Consider what it means to give to serve his kingdom.
- Consider the needs around us that we can help with.
- Consider the truth that giving to the poor is the same as giving to God, so much so that it has spiritual blessing as part of this.
- Consider the basic needs of a functioning Christian social community (church) and support this.
- Learn the truth of the scripture...

Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

I honestly find the truth of giving and offerings (as in the OT idea) is a totally different understanding of tithing.
* Having said that there is sufficient mention of a tithe or 10% of spoils (for example Abraham and Melchizedec) as being considered appropriate to give to the Lord. And that we should think on this.

Question 1 - When the Lord has blessed us (individually or corporately) should we consider the giving of 10% as a respectful '..thank you Lord, so much..'?

Question 2 - Is it also good for folk in our Western culture (*is that most of us on the forum) to, where possible, budget into our lifestyle the ability to give/offer income and time for the Lords service?

Question 3 - If yes to either of the above then how is a good way to practicaly action this in each particular circumstance?

Answer - Simply pray and ask our Lord what he would like us to do.

 

[parsley]

Question 2 - Is it also good for folk in our Western culture (*is that most of us on the forum) to, where possible, budget into our lifestyle the ability to give/offer income and time for the Lords service?

I used to do that (measured), and it seemed to keep my life in balance. It was a personal choice and idea... when I started to panic about time and grasp for it back, the lack of time just got worse.

 

[SteveNZ]

What concerns me is in the hour and a half you go to church regular emphasis on money is taking up time in the service. I go to church I guess to hear about the lord and forget about finances. money depresses me it is a boring subject to me I only talk about it when I have to.

This is more just my personal preference I guess.

Hi Spiritlight, I agree.

I have been to a church like that. In this case it was simply the pastor continually trying to get funds because they had financial hassles. Who knows? The managing elders may have asked him to always do that.

Without being funny the chap was also a salesman by background. He possibly just thought that the Lord needed a hand. He just needed to be loved 'as is' by folk and mature up a bit in the Lord.

Would commenting make a difference? I would politely ask why it was and how for you it removed time to learn and worship the Lord.

You will know from the response where the heart is. And then you may need to pray and seek whether the church is correct for you.

A church in this country was in the headlines in the last year or two. Partially because folk were hurting. Simply because to quote one '..we are always being screwed for money..'. But they loved the fellowship of one with another and families were healed. So folk felt the social stress of '..either pay up or miss out on this fellowship/love..'. A HORRIBLE SITUATION.