Passionless God’s wrath

[ArmyMatt]

Okay. Yes. Now remember you are speaking to someone who has been in a Western mindset and has been taught a Western (i.e. Angry God) agenda for over 50 years. My point in the blog piece was to try to show that this mindset is not condign with the abundant and incredible love of our heavenly Father for us. If anything, it is a rebuke to those who teach God as angry and waiting to whup up on sinners. He is waiting always to gather up His garments and run to us in love.

yeah, but this is the Orthodox forum, and none of us define God's wrath in that way.

 

[Lukaris]

In light of what the Lord preaches in John 5:24-30, I fail to see how we can determine universalism. Surely, I believe, God will judge Christians & non Christians as worthy or unworthy of His kingdom.

 

[Light of the East]

modern scholarship forgets that all subsequent councils affirm that universalism is a heresy, because they affirm the 5th. if this was just an imperial overreach, the SAINTS of subsequent synods would not have agreed.

modern scholarship tends to forget that earlier Fathers also condemned universalism.

Father, I just posted an extract from the 6th Ecumenical Council in which NOTHING was said regarding Apokatastasis. NOTHING.

Now with all due respect again, I am busy over here doing my homework on this issue, therefore, I think that it is incumbent upon you to produce a quote similar to the one which I have posted in which a clear and definitive condemnation of Apokatastasis is mentioned in a conciliar canon. Now that's fair, isn't it?

Oh, and as for earlier Fathers of the Church condemning Apokatastasis, there are two issues:

1. Do we have their quotes in the original Greek? If not, and we have Latin translations, then those translations are going to be subject to the errors of the Latin Church in misunderstanding Greek, as did Augustine.

2. Yes, there were actually six schools of theology which existed until Justinian closed them down. Four of them taught Apokatastasis, one taught Annihilation, and one taught eternal damnation, so indeed there would be Fathers of the Church who did oppose reconciliation of all things in Christ. However, knowing this and knowing that there was never any council called in the first five hundred years of the Church to clarify eschatology, I would say that this strongly suggests that it was acceptable to the Church to hold to any one of these three positions. It wasn't until Augustine's pessimistic anthropology and his other anthropological and theological errors that Apokatastasis began to be seriously attacked as the Western Church (aka the Roman Empire) became highly enamoured of what he wrote and made it dogma - without a council to discuss his new ideas!!!!

 

[ArmyMatt]

and, for the umpteenth and hopefully final time, apokatastasis is not the issue. read St Maximos the confessor. it was how apokatastasis can be defined that's the issue.

 

[Light of the East]

Okay. I'm done for the night.

Going to go watch some baseball.

BTW - Congratulations to the Louisiana Little League team, new champions of the Little League World Series!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father, I just posted an extract from the 6th Ecumenical Council in which NOTHING was said regarding Apokatastasis. NOTHING.

Now with all due respect again, I am busy over here doing my homework on this issue, therefore, I think that it is incumbent upon you to produce a quote similar to the one which I have posted in which a clear and definitive condemnation of Apokatastasis is mentioned in a conciliar canon. Now that's fair, isn't it?

Oh, and as for earlier Fathers of the Church condemning Apokatastasis, there are two issues:

1. Do we have their quotes in the original Greek? If not, and we have Latin translations, then those translations are going to be subject to the errors of the Latin Church in misunderstanding Greek, as did Augustine.

2. Yes, there were actually six schools of theology which existed until Justinian closed them down. Four of them taught Apokatastasis, one taught Annihilation, and one taught eternal damnation, so indeed there would be Fathers of the Church who did oppose reconciliation of all things in Christ. However, knowing this and knowing that there was never any council called in the first five hundred years of the Church to clarify eschatology, I would say that this strongly suggests that it was acceptable to the Church to hold to any one of these three positions. It wasn't until Augustine's pessimistic anthropology and his other anthropological and theological errors that Apokatastasis began to be seriously attacked as the Western Church (aka the Roman Empire) became highly enamoured of what he wrote and made it dogma - without a council to discuss his new ideas!!!!

yeah, it actually did affirm the condemnation when it affirmed the 5th Council. for a council to be Ecumenical, as your highlighted portion says, you accept what it teaches. that portion you highlighted doesn't mention that the 5th Council affirms St Cyril's mia physis formula or the theopaschite formula either, but you can't deny them.

1. yes we do, I had to read them for seminary.

2. that's not what happened. stop laying this all on St Augustine. from our earlier discussions on this same topic, that's not true.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Okay. I'm done for the night.

Going to go watch some baseball.

BTW - Congratulations to the Louisiana Little League team, new champions of the Little League World Series!

I am sorry, but this is like the 4th or 5th time that we have had this very conversation.