This 30 second gif describes my thoughts on this topic:
Is that all you have to say?
Feedback in the form of "words" would be helpful
I suppose in this case, a "picture" isnt worth a thousand words.
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Over-zealous christians and "legalists"
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Is that all you have to say?
Feedback in the form of "words" would be helpful
I suppose in this case, a "picture" isnt worth a thousand words.
Disgust towards what exactly?
Living holy, or those who claim to be cleansed by the blood, while they continue in vile sins?
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CounselorForChrist
Senior Veteran
Well the arguing and how everyone on this subject tends to be in a war to show they are the better christian (even if they are doing the right thing).
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ezeric
HE loves me too.
- Mar 2, 2010
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You see this ^^^ is what is WRONG, about your message!
This isn't GRACE.
This isn't good news.
The devil does a good enough job reminding me/us of how bad we are.
Stop doing his job! Revelations 12:10
Why don't you instead boast about your weakness? 2nd Corinthians 12:9
Why don't you instead boast about the LORD and what HE has done for you?
2 Corinthians 10:17
Unless HE hasn't?
-eric
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Almost liberal type here.
I stopped carrying my extra burden of man made religious laws designed to make you feel guilty unnecessarily a long time ago.
I stopped carrying my extra burden of man made religious laws designed to make you feel guilty unnecessarily a long time ago.
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Merrily
Woolly Anglican
Hebrews 10 v 10 anyone?
"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
Without inward and invisible Grace any and all outward and visible legalism counts for nothing.
"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
Without inward and invisible Grace any and all outward and visible legalism counts for nothing.
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Chainless
Love comes first.
The problem with self-righteousness is that people think they have something to do with it. They don't. God is the only reason we have the ability to resist sin. I take no credit for my righteousness. Also, the last camp I want to be found in is the one that mimics the pharisees. We know that some of Christ's strongest condemnation went to them. Do I seek holiness? Yes. Do I have anything to do with my success in that area? No. Do I encourage my brothers and sisters to pursue righteousness? Yes. Do I dare judge or condemn anyone? No.
The world knows well enough what Christians are against. I try to show them what we are for. For instance, I know a Christian couple who live together. They can't afford to marry for financial reasons. Most people condemn them. But none have done anything to help them with their situation. I also know a girl living a homosexual lifestyle. Most people will condemn her. But nobody has taken the time to address the reason she chose that lifestyle. It stems from things that happened to her in her childhood. She knows I believe it is sin. Should I write her off and never speak with her? That's not me. I'm sticking by her and doing what I can to help her heal from her past hurts. Tangible things, from helping her get into therapy to being a good example of a man that she can see and hopefully change her view on men.
I'm not going to judge someone and never lift a finger to help them. There's too many Christians sitting in the pews never getting their hands dirty. I don't want to have to explain why I never did anything to help people who need it most. The Christian bubble is comfortable but it's difficult to actually accomplish anything when you never leave it.
The world knows well enough what Christians are against. I try to show them what we are for. For instance, I know a Christian couple who live together. They can't afford to marry for financial reasons. Most people condemn them. But none have done anything to help them with their situation. I also know a girl living a homosexual lifestyle. Most people will condemn her. But nobody has taken the time to address the reason she chose that lifestyle. It stems from things that happened to her in her childhood. She knows I believe it is sin. Should I write her off and never speak with her? That's not me. I'm sticking by her and doing what I can to help her heal from her past hurts. Tangible things, from helping her get into therapy to being a good example of a man that she can see and hopefully change her view on men.
I'm not going to judge someone and never lift a finger to help them. There's too many Christians sitting in the pews never getting their hands dirty. I don't want to have to explain why I never did anything to help people who need it most. The Christian bubble is comfortable but it's difficult to actually accomplish anything when you never leave it.
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it's not meant to be comfortable. If it is your hiding from the world your meant to be a light unto. Christians churches and join a bowling club and things like that and go into the world. Go to parties your invited to etc. church pews should be empty for a time while Christians are in the world being Christ to it. Those church pews will will stay on the ground if nobody sits in them but those homeless won't be fed an lost shown the way to church if Christians only are in church.Chainless said:
Skip church next Sunday feed the poor and spread the word. Jesus might like it better than hearing those same old hymns he gets every week.
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Ark100
The Lord is my Refuge
The thing with all the back and forth fighting going on on this forum and threads is that some simply have no clue. I read a few posts and I really shake my head cause some things are just so wrong. Leonfrost being one of them, I had to quote him below. I really hope for the people who go to him for advice in the real world's sake, he does not actually preach to people or tell them about what the word of God says. His posts are one of the most misleading posts ever and it could really get innocent souls in trouble.
When people call you 'self-righteous' simply because you preach to them to repent, then you have to know deeply that they are ignorant or they just don't know the word of God. Anyone who condemns you for preaching repentance does not know what Jesus truly says. That is what Jesus came for and that is what He left here for us His followers to do. Preaching the gospel is about repentance, and following Jesus.
Self-righteousness is what the pharisees do, and its simply not believing in Jesus and what He came to do. They only followed the book/their law and nothing else mattered. Anyone who is self righteous is blind, does NOT acknowledge Jesus Christ, and they base their merit before God on what work they do on their own, which cannot and WILL NOT get anyone anywhere.
Anyone who preaches Christ, repentance and entire gospel based on Jesus Christ is NOT self righteous. Ignore people who twist the word of God. You do know that the enemy knows the word of God and can twist it real good. Therefore not everyone who preaches things that sound like sweet-nothings is actually preaching the word of God.
Don't you just love how many people encourage sins because of Grace? Wow, gobsmacking! Someone quoted Jesus and the prostitute he set free. They forgot to quote that after Jesus set her free, he told her NOT to sin anymore.
Jesus loves to save sinners, He is always looking for lost souls. We were all sinners before He saved us, BUT Jesus is not looking for sinners that after they are saved, they still remain in their filth. He saves us to cleanse us, and the Grace we are given by Him is what makes us continue to work out our repentance with reverence and fear of God.
LEGALISTS are also the pharisees-like people. They would rather not eat some meat, they would not help anyone on sabbath and they would rather follow the law than actually look at what example Jesus set. Jesus broke all the legalistic laws by doing everything good on days that it was deemed 'dont do it' just to show the pharisees that He doesn't care about the law as much as He cares about His own people and their salvation.
Therefore, preaching repentance is nothing related to being legalistic. Working out your repentance after being saved is not related to being legalistic. Just because you respect and appreciate what Jesus did on the cross, and then you abstain from sin is NOT being legalistic neither is it self righteousness. Its simply obeying Him and being led by the Holy Spirit.
I would run away from anyone that preaches that its ok to sin all you want after you are saved. As much as we are not saved by works, faith without works is DEAD.
Example...You have faith? Show it then! Do you show your faith in Jesus Christ by sinning? Shame on you then! Dont you know if you show your faith in him by sinning, then you are nailing Him to the cross again!
That is not who Jesus is! He is merciful, kind and loving, and will forgive us if we fall BUT He is not wanting us to revel in our sins or think we can be as the people in the world simply because he has saved us.
Keep preaching the word and dont let anyone silence you.
Your argument makes no sense whatsoever and seeing your posts and previous posts which I remember you making, I really hope you are not preaching to anyone in the real world. cause some innocent or gullible people might be really misled by you. You just simply have no clue do you? I pray The Lord will open your eyes! He loves all afterall.
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CalebTumanako
Guest
Jesus had all the reason in the Universe to be overly righteous and condemn everyone yet he didn't. If the Son of God never condemned anyone but gives us that right? When someone condemns someone for being a homosexual, what does that person do? Because everyone sins whether they are Christian or not, we just believe in Christ who sets us free from sin through his Grace! No person can ever say - Yes, I live a life without sin, did you know if you look at a woman lustfully or a man, that's a sin? See the standard here? I don't get when people mean to live a life without sin... It's impossible! But, Christ has set us free from sin, it cost the Lord His Son, I will believe in Christ because is my God.
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From quotes you gave above: that He might redeem us from every lawless deed
I did not get a clear idea of what you meant by legalist. It can vary from person to person. Some think that if you think you have to keep the Commandments that means you are a legalist. So, per that reasoning worshipping satan, murdering and so on would be just fine. But...as sit says above He came to redeem us from every lawless deed. So there we see that lawless is bad.
Paul is always, incorrectly as research shows, being accused of saying we don't have to follow the Law. But the word Law can mean many things in Greek just as it does in English. He was saying we are not to be bound to the oral laws, the traditions of men, that the Pharisees tacked onto the true Torah, the true Law. He said, "It is not the doers of the Law" (meaning the Torah in that case) "that will be justified, but the doers only."
In Acts 21 we see that he has been falsely accused, still true today, of not following the Law of Moses, but that he went out of his way to take a Mosaic vow to show that he did follow the Law of Moses. (See the KJV as some newer versions leave out the word Moses.) In Acts 15 he even told nonJewish, new converts, to keep the blood laws of Moses when he told them to refrain from blood and meat of strangled animals. Why? Blood was forbidden in the "Old" Testament and strangled animals still had the blood inside, unlike those whose throats were cut per Mosaic Law.
What is real legalism? Adding to the Word and following man made traditions instead of the Word.
Praying you will be free from all man made traditions and this society is filled with them.
I did not get a clear idea of what you meant by legalist. It can vary from person to person. Some think that if you think you have to keep the Commandments that means you are a legalist. So, per that reasoning worshipping satan, murdering and so on would be just fine. But...as sit says above He came to redeem us from every lawless deed. So there we see that lawless is bad.
Paul is always, incorrectly as research shows, being accused of saying we don't have to follow the Law. But the word Law can mean many things in Greek just as it does in English. He was saying we are not to be bound to the oral laws, the traditions of men, that the Pharisees tacked onto the true Torah, the true Law. He said, "It is not the doers of the Law" (meaning the Torah in that case) "that will be justified, but the doers only."
In Acts 21 we see that he has been falsely accused, still true today, of not following the Law of Moses, but that he went out of his way to take a Mosaic vow to show that he did follow the Law of Moses. (See the KJV as some newer versions leave out the word Moses.) In Acts 15 he even told nonJewish, new converts, to keep the blood laws of Moses when he told them to refrain from blood and meat of strangled animals. Why? Blood was forbidden in the "Old" Testament and strangled animals still had the blood inside, unlike those whose throats were cut per Mosaic Law.
What is real legalism? Adding to the Word and following man made traditions instead of the Word.
Praying you will be free from all man made traditions and this society is filled with them.
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Yes, I understand the standard. It's foolish to say, "I'm without sin" if I were looking with lust at women. I know that standard, and it is not so difficult to achieve.
You say Christ sets us free from sin.
In my mind I understand being set free from sin, to mean "being led out of sin, by Christ, into a life of holiness, void of sin".
Free from sin = not sinning anymore.
May I ask, how are you free from sin?
Either you are a sinner, who wants to sin, and does so without struggle.
Or, you are "struggling" with temptations, yet you give in, and sin.
The later would be a type of somewhat undesirable slavery, in which one can say he sins, but he feels bad about it and does have some level of self loathing and depression.
In either of these cases, how can you proclaim in joy, "hallalujah free at last"?
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered Him, We are Abrahams descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, You will be made free ? Jesus answered them, Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. (John 8:31-36 NKJV)
Anyone who sins, is a slave of sin.
The premise, all must sin, or all do sin, is not accurate. Man can be freed from sin. Man can be guided out of a sinful life, by Christ.
Again, I understand, to lust in one's heart, is a sin, and this too must be abstained from.
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Yes, and as long as I choose to abide in the spirit, I will live sinlessly.
However, even if I were to fall away, and go to hell, my pasts words, would still be true. Man can live holy, and be freed from sin.
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amenkid777
Guest
what do these Scriptures mean then (?):
James 3:1-2 - My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. (2) For we all stumble in many things.
and this:
Matthew 6:11-12 - (11) Give us this day our daily bread, (12) and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
not that it is ever okay to sin. ever!!! but James sounds like it is saying that we all are going to sin. and, the Matthew Scripture sounds like, Jesus tells us Himself, we need to ask for forgiveness every day.
what about people who have been abused and are hurting, and during the abuse used the sin to deal with what they were going through, so it's really difficult to get free from it, but they are actively seeking deliverance, and are trying their hardest to get free from that sin, and all you have to say is you are going to hell..
James 3:1-2 - My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. (2) For we all stumble in many things.
and this:
Matthew 6:11-12 - (11) Give us this day our daily bread, (12) and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
not that it is ever okay to sin. ever!!! but James sounds like it is saying that we all are going to sin. and, the Matthew Scripture sounds like, Jesus tells us Himself, we need to ask for forgiveness every day.
what about people who have been abused and are hurting, and during the abuse used the sin to deal with what they were going through, so it's really difficult to get free from it, but they are actively seeking deliverance, and are trying their hardest to get free from that sin, and all you have to say is you are going to hell..
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gideon123
Humble Servant of God
over-zealous "anything" is creating a big problem in the world today.
people are becoming more stressed, more broken, more polarized, and in some cases more zealous. but all these things can destroy the balance in our lives. we cannot have real peace without a real God-given balance. as others have pointed out ... it comes from remaining humble and realizing God's great guidance for the world.
blessings,
Gideon
people are becoming more stressed, more broken, more polarized, and in some cases more zealous. but all these things can destroy the balance in our lives. we cannot have real peace without a real God-given balance. as others have pointed out ... it comes from remaining humble and realizing God's great guidance for the world.
blessings,
Gideon
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I don't deny the reality of stumbling, for even I have stumbled in the past.
We need to understand what "stumbling" is. Stumbling is not, going to a computer and viewing ungodly things, that's deliberate willful sin.
Let's look the context of the scripture at hand:
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Indeed, we put bits in horses mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles! (James 3:1-5 NKJV)
What James speaks of regarding stumbling is in regards to "the tongue". There is such a thing as letting oneself become angered and yell and curse, and such is stumbling. However, it should not be assumed that stumbling will not put us in danger of hellfire. It will.
You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca! shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, You fool! shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matthew 5:21, 22 NKJV)
If James says, that people do stumble, we should not assume that he means, "we all stumble and remain in no danger at all".
I will also point out, the greek and hebrew "all" do not mean 100% in all cases.
Even in our own language, a brother looks inside a poptart box, and says, "aww man, bro, you ate all the poptarts". Does that mean his brother ate all the poptarts in the past, present, and future of poptarts all over the world? No, it just means he ate the ones in the box.
Notice, James says that if anyone doesn't stumble, he is a perfect man able to also bridle the whole body, meaning complete control of himself, and certainly James is saying it is possible to do so.
As for asking forgiveness, and your quote of that prayer, it is daily bread that is asked for, not daily forgiveness of sins committed on a daily basis. I dont believe that the "model" prayer was meant to be taken as a literal "repetitive" thing we speak, but rather a model is which our prayers ought to be prayed, in a certain manner.
And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. (Matthew 6:7-9 NKJV)
Allow me to ask, do you believe if you did not pray for God's will to be done, it would not be done? Or if you did not ask for daily you would not eat? Dont even the unbelievers eat?
The Father knows the things we need before we ask him.
That must be taken into account. Our prayers dont make God aware as if he were not aware, prayer is to establish our mind in a spiritual foothold, not so that God can learn what we need, but that we may ask in faith, believing in God, who already knows what we need.
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 6:14, 15 NKJV)
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Not only forgive us, but rather, as we forgive. For blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. For this reason, in a state of unmercifulness, and unforgiveness, God's forgiveness is withheld. He however, will forgive us again, if we retain a state of mercifulness. Do not think God cant take away his forgiveness from you.
Simply read the parable of the unforgiving servant. He was forgiven, but his forgiveness was taken back, because he did not show mercy to his fellow servant, and there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.
James had written an epistle, a letter to a specific people, addressing specific issues. You have to understand it in the context of that, as well as in the context of holiness. James does say, they all stumbled, in word, generally speaking, but he does not say, "we all get drunk daily, we all commit adultery daily, we all molest people daily", nor is daily implied when using the word "stumble".
We ask for forgiveness, as we forgive those who trespass against us, not because of indulging in fleshly ventures, but because we must have mercifulness if we are to obtain His mercy.
You must have a really shallow view of everything I've written if you say all I have to say is, "you're going to hell".
That has not been all I have said and that's clearly evident by my previous writings.
As for people who have been abused and are hurting, who have used sin as a coping device. Don't make excuses, but seek God, and obey him. There is no temptation that cannot be resisted, and if one were really trying their hardest, they would cease sinning. A man who "tries" and gives up, and indulges in the lusts of the world, may as well be one of the many who will try, but will not enter.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matthew 7:13, 14 NKJV)
About stumbling:
He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. (I John 2:9, 10 NKJV)
The question is, do you love? Or are you in darkness?
If you have love, abiding in the light, there is no cause of stumbling.
If you are in darkness, depart from evil.
It's a matter of choice, to follow the Lord, or to sin. To be delivered from sin, to be set free, does not mean sitting around, and one day a spark goes off in you. No, rather, you must choose to "take up your cross" and follow Christ. That is freedom.
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amenkid777
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Well thanks for your response it was very nice of you to type all of that out. Sorry if I seemed rude before. I definitely don't want to undo any kind of work God has for you to do here.
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