Outward manifestation of HS presence

[12volt_man]

The pharisees would've liked you.

I see. So, I'm a pharisee because I have this outrageous believe that Christians should follow the Bible. Hmm...

And just to prove what a pharisee I am, you're going to take scripture out of context to try to make an argument.

Mark 3:1-6
1 Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone." 4 Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

No one is arguing that Jesus doesn't have authority over the Sabbath.

Jesus healed people on the sabbath! *GASP* That goes against our teaching and our law!

Actually, that's not our law.

Something that is "unbilblical" is quite different than something not found in the Bible. I've been drving along and the Holy Spirit will tell me, don't take this road, turn here. That's not in the Bible. Does that make it unbiblical? If the power of God so saturates someone that they fall over, does that make it unbiblical? Unbiblical implies that we're doing something AGAINST the Bible. I must've missed the scripture that said, thou shalt not fall when the power of the Holy Spirit is on you.

If this is something that is Biblically tenable, then why do we not see it taught in fact or in principle in the Bible?

If the Bible tells us that one of the fruits of the spirit is self control, then why does this movement teach that people lose control when touched by the Holy Spirit?

 

[probinson]

I see. So, I'm a pharisee because I have this outrageous believe that Christians should follow the Bible. Hmm..

Not following 12volt_man's opinions != not following the Bible.

And just to prove what a pharisee I am, you're going to take scripture out of context to try to make an argument.
No one is arguing that Jesus doesn't have authority over the Sabbath.

Really? The pharisees sure did. So much so that they went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Actually, that's not our law.

No, but it was the accepted teaching at that time. Jesus went against their law and what they had been taught. That's the point.

If the Bible tells us that one of the fruits of the spirit is self control, then why does this movement teach that people lose control when touched by the Holy Spirit?

You don't lose control when you're touched by the Holy Spirit. Such power surges through your body that you can not stand. I know many people fake this because they think it's what they're supposed to do, but not all do.

It's a very real experience when it happens. It's happened to me only twice in my life. The first time is when God called me into the youth ministry. I fell under the power of God as he imparted into me a burning desire to see youth saved. The second time was when I was going through some difficult financial times when we were buying our house. I went down under the power as I surrendered the whole of that care to Him. The next day, we got a call from the mortgage broker that everything was fine and we were ready to close.

You're asking me to show you where it's documented in the Bible. I'm asking you to show me where it is spoken against. Does it hurt you when people "fall out"? Then why worry about it? God is more than capable of dealing with people about stuff like this without our help.

 

[12volt_man]

Not following 12volt_man's opinions != not following the Bible.

I was really hoping that you'd be a little more grown up than that.

As you very well know, I haven't said one word about my opinion and I certainly have never said that not following my opinion is equal to not following the Bible.

Is false witness, such as the stories you're telling about me, one of the fruits we can expect to see when we're slain in the spirit?

Really? The pharisees sure did. So much so that they went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Then take it up with the Pharisees, not me.

You don't lose control when you're touched by the Holy Spirit. Such power surges through your body that you can not stand. I know many people fake this because they think it's what they're supposed to do, but not all do.

I see. So then, why do people not have the ability to control their own bodies? Why do they lose consciousness?

It's a very real experience when it happens.

I have no doubt that it's real. The question is, is it of God?

The second time was when I was going through some difficult financial times when we were buying our house. I went down under the power as I surrendered the whole of that care to Him. The next day, we got a call from the mortgage broker that everything was fine and we were ready to close.

I see. What is the correlation between the two events?

You're asking me to show you where it's documented in the Bible.

Yes, I am.

I'm asking you to show me where it is spoken against.

In other words, it's not.

Does it hurt you when people "fall out"?

When the people whom God has called me to shepherd start to fall for unbiblical doctrines, then, yes, it does hurt me.

Then why worry about it? God is more than capable of dealing with people about stuff like this without our help.

So then, why does He call us to speak out against Unbiblical practices?

 

[probinson]

I was really hoping that you'd be a little more grown up than that.

Truth is truth. Our opinion is our opinion. Truth does not necessarily equal our opinion.

Then take it up with the Pharisees, not me.

The pharisees were adamant about protecting tradition, not caring that Jesus had just healed a man. You are adamant about making your point, not caring that this brother in Christ has shared an awesome testimony about how his walk with God has grown stronger.

I see. So then, why do people not have the ability to control their own bodies? Why do they lose consciousness?

I didn't lose consciousness when I fell out under the Spirit. I was well aware of what was going on around me. I chose to rest in God's presence and His power. I surrendered my will to His.

I have no doubt that it's real. The question is, is it of God?

Sometimes, it's from our flesh, trying to look spiritual, trying to do what's expected of us. Those are the wrong motives. But when it's real, if it's not from God, who are you suggesting it's from? Did the devil knock me over and give me the desire to minister to the youth of our area??

I see. What is the correlation between the two events?

The correlation between the events is that I was trying to make the deal with my house happen. I wanted to do things my way. When I cast the whole of my care on Him and let God saturate me with His presence, all of our troubles just vanished, the next day. Coincidence?

When the people whom God has called me to shepherd start to fall for unbiblical doctrines, then, yes, it does hurt me.

So then, why does He call us to speak out against Unbiblical practices?

You've yet to show how this is an "unbiblical" practice. Show me in the Bible where it says that we should beware of the power of the Holy Spirit that it not consume us to the point that we can not stand.

 

[12volt_man]

Truth is truth. Our opinion is our opinion. Truth does not necessarily equal our opinion.

That's swell and all, but it still doesn't explain why you chose to intentionally misrepresent me in this way.

The pharisees were adamant about protecting tradition, not caring that Jesus had just healed a man. You are adamant about making your point, not caring that this brother in Christ has shared an awesome testimony about how his walk with God has grown stronger.

I am adamant about people who call themselves Christians not perverting the word of God.

But when it's real, if it's not from God, who are you suggesting it's from?

I'm not suggesting that it's from anybody. I'm saying that it's not found anywhere in scripture.

Did the devil knock me over and give me the desire to minister to the youth of our area??

Why do you believe that this desire came only after experiencing this subjective experience?

What about those of us who have a desire to minister, but who don't follow this unbiblical practice?

The correlation between the events is that I was trying to make the deal with my house happen. I wanted to do things my way. When I cast the whole of my care on Him and let God saturate me with His presence, all of our troubles just vanished, the next day. Coincidence?

Well, yes.

I mean, you still haven't shown me where in the Bible we're told that this is of God and you don't show how this esoteric experience paid your mortgage.

You've yet to show how this is an "unbiblical" practice.

The fact that it's not taught in scripture makes it, by definition, an unbiblical pratice.

 

[probinson]

That's swell and all, but it still doesn't explain why you chose to intentionally misrepresent me in this way.

I didn't choose to intentionally misrepresent anyone.

I am adamant about people who call themselves Christians not perverting the word of God.

Again, how is anyone perverting the Word of God. That's a pretty bold accusation without anything to back it up.

Why do you believe that this desire came only after experiencing this subjective experience?

What about those of us who have a desire to minister, but who don't follow this unbiblical practice?

Because I surrendered my all to Him. Whether I fell down or not is not important. What is important is that I decided from that moment forward that I would go after this God-given desire with all my heart.

I mean, you still haven't shown me where in the Bible we're told that this is of God and you don't show how this esoteric experience paid your mortgage.

I was believing God that He would make a way for me, who had only been in the work force for 6 months, and my wife, who had only been out of High School for 2 months, to purchase a home so that we would not have to rent. I was not believing that God would give me a house with no payments. God gave us what we believed for.

And I mean, you still haven't shown me where in the Bible we're told that explicitly that this is NOT of God. I would think the fruit after my experiences would be enough to say God was at work in my life. Didn't Jesus say, you'll know them by their fruits?

The fact that it's not taught in scripture makes it, by definition, an unbiblical pratice.

Unbiblical means contrary to the Word of God. Please show me where is this contrary to the Word of God?

 

[12volt_man]

I didn't choose to intentionally misrepresent anyone.

You did me.

You implied that I said that anyone who disagreed with my opinion is thereby disagreeing with the Bible.

Anyone reading my posts can tell you that I've never said, nor implied them.

Again, how is anyone perverting the Word of God. That's a pretty bold accusation without anything to back it up.

Your accusations against me are pretty bold, but you don't feel the need to back them up.

I was believing God that He would make a way for me, who had only been in the work force for 6 months, and my wife, who had only been out of High School for 2 months, to purchase a home so that we would not have to rent. I was not believing that God would give me a house with no payments. God gave us what we believed for.

That doesn't show correlation.

And I mean, you still haven't shown me where in the Bible we're told that explicitly that this is NOT of God.

I've addressed this a couple of times alreadyy.

I would think the fruit after my experiences would be enough to say God was at work in my life. Didn't Jesus say, you'll know them by their fruits?

So far, you've lied about me and called me names.

What kind of fruit is that?

Unbiblical means contrary to the Word of God. Please show me where is this contrary to the Word of God?

No, that's anti-Biblical. Unbiblical simply means that it's not Biblical.

 

[probinson]

You did me.

You implied that I said that anyone who disagreed with my opinion is thereby disagreeing with the Bible.

Anyone reading my posts can tell you that I've never said, nor implied them.

That is not what I said at all. First I said:

Not following 12volt_man's opinions != not following the Bible.

which is a true statement. I could've just as easily said "Not following probinson's opinion != not following the Bible." Both staments are true. Then I said:

Truth is truth. Our opinion is our opinion. Truth does not necessarily equal our opinion.

That is also a true statement. I never implied that anyone who disagreed with YOUR opinion was disagreeing with the Bible. As a matter of fact, I stated that ANYONE'S opinion does not NECESSARILY equal truth.

Your accusations against me are pretty bold, but you don't feel the need to back them up.

What accusations? The ones that you're fabricating? Please quote me where I accused you of anything and I will happily back them up or apologize if they exist.

That doesn't show correlation.

So what would constitute a correlation?

So far, you've lied about me and called me names.

What kind of fruit is that?

Where did I lie about you? Where did I call you names? Again, please show me where I did this by quoting my post and I will address or apologize as necessary.

No, that's anti-Biblical. Unbiblical simply means that it's not Biblical.

You can make up all the terms you want, but a quick look in the dictionary defines unbiblical as contrary to the Bible.

 

[12volt_man]

That is not what I said at all.

That's precisely what you said.

What accusations? The ones that you're fabricating?

Icluding the one that I'm fabricating accusations, the accusation that I've said that anyone who disagrees with my opinion must then disagree with the Bible. The accusation that I am a Pharisee.

Where did I lie about you? Where did I call you names?

You implied that I was a pharisee.

You can make up all the terms you want, but a quick look in the dictionary defines unbiblical as contrary to the Bible.

Yes, I made up the prefix, "anti". God forbid anybody should believe that it's actually a Latin word that's been around for a couple of thousand years.

 

[probinson]

That's precisely what you said.

I showed "precisely" what I said in my last post.

Icluding the one that I'm fabricating accusations, the accusation that I've said that anyone who disagrees with my opinion must then disagree with the Bible.

See above. I didn't say that at all, and your insistence that I did is quite dishonest on your part in light of the evidence presented above. Therefore, my accusation of fabricating accusations stands. I've now accused you of one thing.

The accusation that I am a Pharisee.

I said: "The Pharisees would've liked you" I didn't accuse you of BEING a pharisee.

You implied that I was a pharisee.

No implication of that was made at all. See above.

Yes, I made up the prefix, "anti". God forbid anybody should believe that it's actually a Latin word that's been around for a couple of thousand years.

Oh, come on. Did you look up unbiblical yet? My dictionary says it means contrary to the Bible. You've yet to show how any of this is contrary to the Bible. If you're going to toss around terms like "unbiblical", you should at least take the time to look them up so you know what they mean.

 

[12volt_man]

I showed "precisely" what I said in my last post.

Yes, and I don't believe anyone will buy that any more than I do.

I said: "The Pharisees would've liked you" I didn't accuse you of BEING a pharisee.

How Clintonian.

My dictionary says it means contrary to the Bible. You've yet to show how any of this is contrary to the Bible. If you're going to toss around terms like "unbiblical", you should at least take the time to look them up so you know what they mean.

So, then, at what point can I expect you to show us where this practice is found?

 

[BillynJennifer]

This will be my last post in this thread, but I have a request. I've looked and looked through my Strong's and other such study material for the scripture that says something to the effect of falling onto the floor while in a church service is out of order and of the devil. If I can be given this scripture, I will stand in my church on Sunday and adamantly testify that we are wrong...

 

[probinson]

Yes, and I don't believe anyone will buy that any more than I do.

OK then. Let's look at it again:

That is not what I said at all. First I said:

Not following 12volt_man's opinions != not following the Bible.

which is a true statement. I could've just as easily said "Not following probinson's opinion != not following the Bible." Both staments are true. Then I said:

Truth is truth. Our opinion is our opinion. Truth does not necessarily equal our opinion.

That is also a true statement. I never implied that anyone who disagreed with YOUR opinion was disagreeing with the Bible. As a matter of fact, I stated that ANYONE'S opinion does not NECESSARILY equal truth.

Please show me, in those statements, where I accused you of saying that, in your own words, "...anyone who disagreed with my opinion is thereby disagreeing with the Bible..."

How Clintonian

I said you were exhibiting the same qualities of the Pharisees when Jesus healed on the sabbath by completely ignoring TwistrAndy's testimony of God working in his life in favor of proving that you are right. The Tree of Life is much better than the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Just ask Adam and Eve.

So, then, at what point can I expect you to show us where this practice is found?

I think I addressed that rather clearly when I said this:

I've been drving along and the Holy Spirit will tell me, don't take this road, turn here. That's not in the Bible. Does that make it unbiblical? If the power of God so saturates someone that they fall over, does that make it unbiblical? Unbiblical implies that we're doing something AGAINST the Bible.

So what are we doing that is against the Bible?

 

[12volt_man]

Please show me, in those statements, where I accused you of saying that, in your own words, "...anyone who disagreed with my opinion is thereby disagreeing with the Bible..."

I've addressed this already.

I said you were exhibiting the same qualities of the Pharisees when Jesus healed on the sabbath by completely ignoring TwistrAndy's testimony of God working in his life in favor of proving that you are right.

And, once again, dishonesty on your part.

Not only did I not ignore his testimony, I even asked him questions about it in order to give him a chance to expand on the things that he had said.

Nor was I trying to prove that I am right.

So what are we doing that is against the Bible?

Has anyone argued that you've done anything "against the Bible"?

 

[probinson]

I've addressed this already.

OK then. You refuse to address this issue. Even though I've shown quite clearly, twice even, that I did not state what you've accused me of, as anyone who can read can see.

And, once again, dishonesty on your part.

Not only did I not ignore his testimony, I even asked him questions about it in order to give him a chance to expand on the things that he had said.

Yeah. Here's your reply to TwistrAndy, who had just told you that he turned away from sin and was serving and seeking God:

That's fine. I respect your right to your opinion.
The bottom line, though, is that you're still supporting an Unbiblical practice.

probinson: Translation: Yeah, that's wonderful. But you're wrong.

Oh, grow up. You know that it has nothing to do with "putting God in a box" or Him needing my permission to do anything.

probinson: That's edifying and uplifting. Way to choose life.

What are these fruits? Where is this practice found in scripture.

probinson: Well, for one thing, he turned away from sin and began to seek God. That's some right tasty fruit there.

I see. So then, the people here who say they experience this aren't really "on the solid rock 100%"?

probinson:I don't necessarily agree with his original statement regarding this, but again it pales in comparison to the awseome testimony of my brother.

Do you believe that esoteric experiences hold greater authority than scripture?

probinson: Where did he say that experiences outweigh scripture? I didn't see him say that experiences were greater than scripture. He never even implied it.

Nor was I trying to prove that I am right.

Again, from your original response to TwistrAndy:

OK, so it took a little longer than I expected but I knew, sooner or later, I'd get the "you choose God's word over mine so you're obviously not a real charismatic" garbage.

You're purporting that your view is God's Word. You've still not shown any scripture to support that God's Word condemns this behavior to justify that anyone is "choosing their word over God's".

Has anyone argued that you've done anything "against the Bible"?

Yes. Repeatedly. Unbiblical = that which is contrary to the Bible. Look it up.

 

[12volt_man]

OK then. You refuse to address this issue.

Actually, I haven't refused to address it. I refuse to keep addressing it.

Yeah. Here's your reply to TwistrAndy, who had just told you that he turned away from sin and was serving and seeking God:

Actually, this is more dishonesty on your part.

The statement I made that you're quoting took place in post #16 and was, as that post clearly shows, in response to Andy's statement,

but anyone that wants to come here who's not even pentecostal (that's me he's referring to) and starts a debate, and nothing happens

Nothing about "turning away from sin and seeking God".

So, yes I did say that I expected someone to accuse me of not being a real charismatic and there you go. He did say it.

Where did he say that experiences outweigh scripture? I didn't see him say that experiences were greater than scripture. He never even implied it.

Where did I say that he did? Perhaps you're unaware of this, but when someone begins a sentence with an interrogative, such as, "do you" and ends it with a question mark, that's a pretty good clue that it's a question, not a statement.

You're purporting that your view is God's Word.

Again, more dishonesty on your part (boy, this "fruit" you claim to have is really piling up, isn't it?).

As my posts will clearly show, I've never said anything even remotely resembling this.

Yes. Repeatedly. Unbiblical = that which is contrary to the Bible. Look it up.

Again, you're thinking of "anit-Biblical". "Anti-Biblical" means that something is against the Bible.

"Unbiblical" simply means that something is not Biblical.

In any event, neither you, nor anyone in this thread who claims to support this practice has offered one verse of scripture.

That's the last I have to say about it. I will leave you to make all the lies and innuendo against me that you wish.

 

[probinson]

Actually, this is more dishonesty on your part.

First of all, I would like you to stop calling me a liar. Thanks.

The statement I made that you're quoting took place in post #16 and was, as that post clearly shows, in response to Andy's statement,

TwistrAndy said in post #15: "...In my church I've only seen good things come of it. It has fruits..."
You then quoted this in post #16 and commented: "What are these fruits? Where is this practice found in scripture."
TwsitrAndy had already made quite clear the fruits earlier in post #15:

Tell me, why is it that after God got a hold of me in this way that, I became spiritually minded, I loved going to church, I loved God with all my heart, a complete change was made, where I used to have to be begged by my grandma to go to church, turned into me begging her, I'm at every revival. Where would I have been now, if God hadn't got my attention in a radical way. I'd probably be in all out sin. It is real.

Nothing about "turning away from sin and seeking God".

Really? I think you better take a second look at his testimony.

Where did I say that he did? Perhaps you're unaware of this, but when someone begins a sentence with an interrogative, such as, "do you" and ends it with a question mark, that's a pretty good clue that it's a question, not a statement.

Good point. You did not state that he held experiences in higher authority than scripture. But as I said, he never even implied that. Why even bring it up?

Again, more dishonesty on your part (boy, this "fruit" you claim to have is really piling up, isn't it?).

As my posts will clearly show, I've never said anything even remotely resembling this.

You stated that "...I'd get the "you choose God's word over mine so you're obviously not a real charismatic" garbage..." You're clearly implying that we insist on our own way, while you follow God's Word.

Again, you're thinking of "anit-Biblical". "Anti-Biblical" means that something is against the Bible.

"Unbiblical" simply means that something is not Biblical.

Just because that's what you want unbiblical to mean does not make it so. Again, the dictionary says that unbiblical = that which is contrary to God's word.

In any event, neither you, nor anyone in this thread who claims to support this practice has offered one verse of scripture.

Neither have you. If you're going to demand scripture from us, shouldn't you provide some of your own?

That's the last I have to say about it. I will leave you to make all the lies and innuendo against me that you wish.

Let the record show that in your last post alone, you called me a liar or dishonest 3 times. I've made no innuendo about you. Interestingly enough, if you look back over this entire discussion, I have not once** called you dishonest, a liar, or said you were a false witness. You, on the other hand, make it a point to slander me in almost every post with labels like liar, dishonest, false witness. Didn't Jesus say something about dealing with your plank before you worry about my spec?

 

[12volt_man]

Like I said, you have the last word and you may use that to spread falsehoods and inuendos about me if you like.

Unfortunately, you have nothing of any substance to say about the topic at hand, so you choose to cover this up by attacking me.

That's too bad, really.

 

[probinson]

Like I said, you have the last word and you may use that to spread falsehoods and inuendos about me if you like.

Unfortunately, you have nothing of any substance to say about the topic at hand, so you choose to cover this up by attacking me.

Count the number of times I called you dishonest, a liar, a false witness. Total: Once. In post #30.

Now count the number of times you called me a liar, dishonest, and a false witness. Total: more than once. Repeatedly. In almost every post. Who's attacking who here?

You've yet to produce even one scripture to validate your claim. Since you made the original accusation that this practice is unbiblical, the burden of proof lies on you. Since you don't see it that way, have a gander below.

Matthew 17:5-6
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified.

John 18:4-6
4Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?" 5"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Acts 9:3-4
3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

Acts 26:13-14
13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

Revelation 1:17
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Wow! Look at all the people falling over in the Bible because of the presence and power of God!

That's too bad, really.

Yeah. It's a darn shame.

 

[TwistrAndy]

Sorry for not posting as soon. I was at school, went to visit someone in the hospital ,and then went to prayer meeting today, so I've been gone since 6:30 this morning.

As a response to the "You're not Pentecostal", actually you're not in the Charismatic section, you're in the PENTECOSTAL section. No charasmatic here. Just Pentecostal. And Pentecostalism teaches that "Speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, and that is the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost" The reason I believe that way is because every time someone was baptized in the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost fell at Pentecost they spoke in tongues. At the house of Cornelius, the Holy Ghost fell on them, and they spake with tongues and magnified God.

And as for the Baptist Forum. NO you wouldn't see me quoting scripture, first of all because I quoted it in the BAPTIST forum, and it was DELETED by the moderators, if you need proof, I have all of their PM's giving me warnings.

The Fruits, are IT CHANGED LIVES.

Now find where I said "12-volt you're not on the solid rock."

What I meant was some people aren't going to ask Jesus into their hearts at the preachers command. Some people God will have to deal with extreme and radical. Those people after that experience are on the solid rock 100%. Never did I talk about yours or anyone elses relationship with God.

My scriptural basis is that the Bible tells me to test the Spirits. I've tested it and found that is was good, and I've hung on to it.

Do I feel good about TV Preachers knocking people down. NO.

The times I believe in it is when it's gonna take something radical to get a sinners attention, an extreme touch of God.

What I am glad for is that God has built up my faith to throw off your opinions, and go on in faith. Because if I listened to people like you and got all depressed, then I've let Satan get between me and God.

There are plenty of biblical examples. God knocked Saul off of His horse on the way to Damascus, and there are plenty of times when God put people out. You seem to know your Bible, so find them. You're not going to find the exact words "Slain in the Spirit" in the Bible, but you're not going to find "Rapture" or "Trinity". So I guess you're a Oneness who doesn't believe in the Rapture right? Because those words arent in the Bible. But examples of them are, just like with slain in the Spirit.