Original Sin

[FlaviusAetius]

Despite reading and knowing what it means I have trouble understanding what this implies.

If Mary lacked original sin does that mean she didn't know good or evil? Could she still have fallen into sin through temptation even with an immaculate state? Did Jesus have original sin?

Finally why were Adam and Eve punished so severely if they ate the fruit of knowledge before they even knew good or evil? That'd be like God being a father who beats his child nearly to death for dressing in his clothes out of an innocent desire to be like their father.

 

[Rhamiel]

If Mary lacked original sin does that mean she didn't know good or evil?

Mary knew goodness because she was in a state of Grace, a state of friendship with God who is All Good
she knew evil, not through personal failing but through seeing evil in the actions of those around her

Could she still have fallen into sin through temptation even with an immaculate state?

yes
Adam and Eve were created in a state of Grace too, but they choose evil
Mary choose good, she choose to follow God

Did Jesus have original sin?

no

Finally why were Adam and Eve punished so severely if they ate the fruit of knowledge before they even knew good or evil?

I think you might be reading that part a bit too literally
they "had knowledge of good and evil" because after sinning they could remember their life in a state of grace, and now knew they had fallen, so they had experienced good and evil, they went from spiritual life to being spiritually dead
it is not like eating the fruit zapped new information into their brains
the "knowing good and evil" was learned from experiencing both
where in the state of pre-fallen Grace, they only knew good


I am not 100% sure on the teaching of the Church on this
someone please correct me if I am mistaken
but in Original Sin do we inherit the guilt of Original Sin or only the effects?
(I want the Catholic understanding on this)

 

[Michie]

I thought it was the effects.

Mary knew goodness because she was in a state of Grace, a state of friendship with God who is All Good
she knew evil, not through personal failing but through seeing evil in the actions of those around her


yes
Adam and Eve were created in a state of Grace too, but they choose evil
Mary choose good, she choose to follow God


no


I think you might be reading that part a bit too literally
they "had knowledge of good and evil" because after sinning they could remember their life in a state of grace, and now knew they had fallen, so they had experienced good and evil, they went from spiritual life to being spiritually dead
it is not like eating the fruit zapped new information into their brains
the "knowing good and evil" was learned from experiencing both
where in the state of pre-fallen Grace, they only knew good


I am not 100% sure on the teaching of the Church on this
someone please correct me if I am mistaken
but in Original Sin do we inherit the guilt of Original Sin or only the effects?
(I want the Catholic understanding on this)

 

[Rhamiel]

ok so original sin can be seen as like a genetic defect

our first parents lost the Supernatural Spiritual gifts of being in a State of Grace

so they simply did not have those things to pass on to their children

it is not so much a personal guilt on the child, it is just the parents did not have that gift to pass on

now instead of gaining life from our biological parents (as would have happened if Adam and Eve never sinned) we now go to Christ and accept His Grace

(someone please correct me if I am wrong, this topic is always very confusing for me, between the EO, and the Protestant, and the various Catholic theologians I always feel like I am kind of lost on this)

 

[FlaviusAetius]

Mary knew goodness because she was in a state of Grace, a state of friendship with God who is All Good
she knew evil, not through personal failing but through seeing evil in the actions of those around her


yes
Adam and Eve were created in a state of Grace too, but they choose evil
Mary choose good, she choose to follow God


no


I think you might be reading that part a bit too literally
they "had knowledge of good and evil" because after sinning they could remember their life in a state of grace, and now knew they had fallen, so they had experienced good and evil, they went from spiritual life to being spiritually dead
it is not like eating the fruit zapped new information into their brains
the "knowing good and evil" was learned from experiencing both
where in the state of pre-fallen Grace, they only knew good


I am not 100% sure on the teaching of the Church on this
someone please correct me if I am mistaken
but in Original Sin do we inherit the guilt of Original Sin or only the effects?
(I want the Catholic understanding on this)

Considering they experienced shame from nudity only after eating the fruit, it does seem like they were zapped this knowledge suddenly.

Plus it's not like the fruit was just a symbolic test because God orders his angels to keep mankind from eating the fruit of life out of fear of an immortal fallen race.

 

[Rhamiel]

Considering they experienced shame from nudity only after eating the fruit, it does seem like they were zapped this knowledge suddenly.

or it could be seen as a sign that they were broken and no longer felt comfortable being naked?
I mean there is nothing immoral about a husband and wife being naked together, especially when you are the only two human beings on the face of the planet
so the worry about nudity was not so much modesty..... but it seems more of a sign of internal dysfunction

Plus it's not like the fruit was just a symbolic test because God orders his angels to keep mankind from eating the fruit of life out of fear of an immortal fallen race.

it is not clear how symbolic it is
I mean God can do anything, so He could have just made some magic fruit
or it could be more symbolic about some kind of rebellion against God

the story of Creation and the Fall are written like Myth
Myth is a style of literature, it does not mean false, but it is also not literal
this can be seen that even before Darwin, the Catholic Church was never strict 6 Day Creation
I think it was St. Augustine was of the view that was popular in Greek Philosophy at the time that said all Creation came into being in an instant or something, I forget I might have got that mixed up
but the general point is still true, it has long been accepted that the specifics of Adam and Eve might not be literal

we do believe that all humans come from a set of First Parents were created in a state of grace and then they fell into sin

 

[mea kulpa]

What adam and eve were tempted to eat the fruit. The promise of the serpent was "you will be like God" in so choosing to eat the fruit even though God said not to adam and eve put themselves on the same level of God...choosing that they themselves could decide what was good or evil. In other words by their actions they believed they knew what was Good and what was evil. Once they ate the fruit their eyes were opened they had until that point known only Good but now they knew evil too... evil is to decide that what is decalred good by God to be evil and what is evil by God to be good.

Jesus was without sin and he was tempted but rejected all those temptations in obedience to God. I think the cross is symbolic of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. The punishment was death and jesus took that punishment upon himself and in his resurection destroyed death. That jesus was nailed to it shows us the cross of death through the resurection has become the tree of life and jesus is the new fruit that leads to eternal life which leads us back to the eucharist and jesus' words unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood there is no life in you