Original Languages Forum

PastorMike

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Does anyone know if there is an Original Languages Forum here on CF?

Often when I am studying I come across different words in the Greek and Hebrew and would love to be able to ask others about them or discuss them with someone who has a handle on these things...

*Edit... I have searched for one and couldn't find one, that's why I am asking...
 
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hhodgson

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Does anyone know if there is an Original Languages Forum here on CF?

Often when I am studying I come across different words in the Greek and Hebrew and would love to be able to ask others about them or discuss them with someone who has a handle on these things...

*Edit... I have searched for one and couldn't find one, that's why I am asking...

Hi Mike...

Not sure about what's on the CF but where I see it most about Greek and Hebrew meanings of words is used often by Bob (ABlessedMan). It may be from e-Sword. You may want to PM him and check it out. He hasn't been here in a while. Probably another cruise... :) If you PM him, pretty sure he will get back to you asap.

If you can't get ahold of him right away, I'm sure other members on this forum may be able to locate what you need.

Thanks for popping in. Been awhile...

Harry...
 
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PastorMike

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Thanks bro, I have a limited knowledge, what I learned in Bible School and I have all the software but I want to be able to talk about stuff with like minded people who understand some of the languages to understand how we got our translations of specific verses and why...

For example... Rom. 10:17 is different in different translations NKJV and KJV are the same and the NASB and ESV are the same but which one is correct and why are they different?
 
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Star Adept

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Hi PastorMike! I delve deeply into the Hebrew OT. Less so with the Greek NT but my resources are the same. I would love to talk more about it. I don't often get a chance to voice that level of understanding around here if I'm outside the doctrine/philosophy bubble lest I be called a heretic. Go ahead and shoot me a PM if you'd like.
 
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George95

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Hello there!

Your best bet would be asking in Region and Languages forum, though they don't get much activity unfortunately. Perhaps trying in Christian Scriptures.

I'll see what else I can find that would be best. :)
 
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Ugh, I had no idea the site had a Hermeneutics subsection. Would have been nice of staff to mention this in the string of hand-slaps and post-pulling that happen every time I speak about such things :p Thank you George95. But he's right, they're not very active. I suppose we can change that now that I know they exist.
 
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dayhiker

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The hermeneutics sections does sound like the place to post. I've stopped by there occasionally. If you post the type of stuff your interested in, then when others see it they will comeback if they like what your posting about. So go for it, I say.
 
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Not a Greek Scholar, but in the example you just gave, both the KJV and the NKJV say "God" because they use the textus receptus version of the Greek manuscript that has "Theos" for God in Romans 10:17. More modern translations (virtually all of them) use older Greek manuscripts, they have "Christos" for Christ. Endless debate about which Greek text is right, but this is a reason many won't let go of their King James Bible.
 
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Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
Thats the Greek behind the KJV/NKJV. See the last word? It's Theos (God).

Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ.
Thats the Greek (Nestle/aland) behind NASB/ESV etc. See the last word, it is Christos (Christ).

Font's aren't coming through right, but you get the idea.
 
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now faith

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Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
Thats the Greek behind the KJV/NKJV. See the last word? It's Theos (God).

Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ.
Thats the Greek (Nestle/aland) behind NASB/ESV etc. See the last word, it is Christos (Christ).

Font's aren't coming through right, but you get the idea.

That's odd for me I refer to Jesus as Christ most of the time,yet I am KJ only.

Here is a excerpt from James Melton on the difference between the KJ and NKJ.

3. It is estimated that the NKJV makes over 100,000 translation changes, which comes to over eighty changes per page and about three changes per verse! A great number of these changes bring the NKJV in line with the readings of such Alexandrian perversions as the NIV and the RSV. Where changes are not made in the text, subtle footnotes often give credence to the Westcott and Hort Greek Text.
4. While passing off as being true to the Textus Receptus, the NKJV IGNORES the Receptus over 1,200 times.
5. In the NKJV, there are 22 omissions of "hell", 23 omissions of "blood", 44 omissions of "repent", 50 omissions of "heaven", 51 omissions of "God", and 66 omissions of "Lord". The terms "devils", "damnation", "JEHOVAH", and "new testament" are completely omitted.
6. The NKJV demotes the Lord Jesus Christ. In John 1:3, the KJV says that all things were made "by" Jesus Christ, but in the NKJV, all things were just made "through" Him. The word "Servant" replaces "Son" in Acts 3:13 and 3:26. "Servant" replaces "child" in Acts 4:27 and 4:30. The word "Jesus" is omitted from Mark 2:15, Hebrews 4:8, and Acts 7:45.

Note : His terminology is a bit harsh,but he has some useful statistics.
 
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PastorMike

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Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
Thats the Greek behind the KJV/NKJV. See the last word? It's Theos (God).

Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ.
Thats the Greek (Nestle/aland) behind NASB/ESV etc. See the last word, it is Christos (Christ).

Font's aren't coming through right, but you get the idea.


That's my point DMW but which one is correct? is it the word of God or the word of Christ?
 
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PastorMike

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Not a Greek Scholar, but in the example you just gave, both the KJV and the NKJV say "God" because they use the textus receptus version of the Greek manuscript that has "Theos" for God in Romans 10:17. More modern translations (virtually all of them) use older Greek manuscripts, they have "Christos" for Christ. Endless debate about which Greek text is right, but this is a reason many won't let go of their King James Bible.

Thanks for the replies bro... the reason I am asking is because if it is the word of Christ it actually changes the whole concept of where faith comes from, it is not necessarily the entire word of God but particular portions of the word of God...
 
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I would tend to lean towards any version written without the accent marks. If I remember correctly, they did not use those in the time of authorship. I would have to source this but it's like 4 am. I'll get around to it when I get home from work but I'm like 92% sure on this. Also try to look for koine dialect text. I myself do not know the difference but I remember it being the "common tongue" that the Hebrews would have written in instead of the more classical dialects used in Greek Literature.
 
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AbbaLove

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Thanks bro, I have a limited knowledge, what I learned in Bible School and I have all the software but I want to be able to talk about stuff with like minded people who understand some of the languages to understand how we got our translations of specific verses and why…

For example... Rom. 10:17 is different in different translations NKJV and KJV are the same and the NASB and ESV are the same but which one is correct and why are they different?
That's my point DMW but which one is correct? is it the word of God or the word of Christ?
Thanks for the replies bro... the reason I am asking is because if it is the word of Christ it actually changes the whole concept of where faith comes from, it is not necessarily the entire word of God but particular portions of the word of God...


Part of the problem with Seminary is whether or not the professor doing the teaching has the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (e.g. “Dad” Hagin). Even then you could have three professors who all say the Holy Spirit is abiding in them. Yet each may have significant differences on what each believes is the ‘correct’ interpretation of a particular scripture.

So, how do you know who is really listening to and being taught by the Holy Spirit. For example the Scofield Bible is highly recommended by some for it’s excellent commentaries. How do we know if Scofield’s commentaries were inspired by the Holy Spirit?

On the other hand how many different translations do we need to get the correct understanding of John 14:26. Are children going to argue over the ESV translation?. As Ian Andrews, Heidi Baker, Bill Johnson, Kathy Walters and others have said …”Children don’t get a Junior Holy Spirit.” But many a Seminary Professor needs to clarify that the verse as well as 1 John 2:27, with learned exegesis. For example maybe these verses only applies to the first Apostles. ;)

John 14:26 ESV
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
1 John 2:27 NIV
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

On the other hand take a scripture verse like Matthew 28:1. The best translation from Greek may be Young’s Literal Translation YLT not KJV. Yet, the majority of mainstream translations that dovetail with what we’ve been taught couldn’t possibly be wrong. Even if YLT is correct most of us would probably be content to “Leave well enough alone” … let’s not upset an Apple Cart that already has more than its share of different apples. After all “What difference does it matter!” whether we call the First Fruits of Pesach--Easter or Resurrection Day.

Matthew 28:1 KJV
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Matthew 28:1 NASB
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.

Matthew 28:1 YLT
And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

At first glance “eve of the sabbaths” seems to be in contradiction to “at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths”. “Eve” or “”erev/ereb” refers to that time from sunset until the sky is dark (about 45 minutes this time of the year).

Think we all would agree that as we get closer to His imminent return, there's an increasing interest in Hebrew idioms, Jewish culture and correctly interpretating the inspired writings of 1st Century Jewish Messianic Christians.
 
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hhodgson

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I would tend to lean towards any version written without the accent marks. If I remember correctly, they did not use those in the time of authorship. I would have to source this but it's like 4 am. I'll get around to it when I get home from work but I'm like 92% sure on this. Also try to look for koine dialect text. I myself do not know the difference but I remember it being the "common tongue" that the Hebrews would have written in instead of the more classical dialects used in Greek Literature.

This is cool... 4 am (probably tired) and yet, 92% sure. At 4 am, I wouldn't be sure of nothing... except for how many sheep I'm counting... :wave:

Welcome...

Walk in The Blessing,

Harry...

 
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This is cool... 4 am (probably tired) and yet, 92% sure. At 4 am, I wouldn't be sure of nothing... except for how many sheep I'm counting... :wave:

Welcome...

Walk in The Blessing,

Harry...


I'm an insomniac for various reasons but mainly because I do not feel the sensation of tired. So, I spend the normal "dead" hours doing research and such. Thanks for the welcome!
 
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hhodgson

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Here is a excerpt from James Melton on the difference between the KJ and NKJ.

3. It is estimated that the NKJV makes over 100,000 translation changes, which comes to over eighty changes per page and about three changes per verse! A great number of these changes bring the NKJV in line with the readings of such Alexandrian perversions as the NIV and the RSV. Where changes are not made in the text, subtle footnotes often give credence to the Westcott and Hort Greek Text.

4. While passing off as being true to the Textus Receptus, the NKJV IGNORES the Receptus over 1,200 times.

5. In the NKJV, there are 22 omissions of "hell", 23 omissions of "blood", 44 omissions of "repent", 50 omissions of "heaven", 51 omissions of "God", and 66 omissions of "Lord". The terms "devils", "damnation", "JEHOVAH", and "new testament" are completely omitted.

6. The NKJV demotes the Lord Jesus Christ. In John 1:3, the KJV says that all things were made "by" Jesus Christ, but in the NKJV, all things were just made "through" Him. The word "Servant" replaces "Son" in Acts 3:13 and 3:26. "Servant" replaces "child" in Acts 4:27 and 4:30. The word "Jesus" is omitted from Mark 2:15, Hebrews 4:8, and Acts 7:45.

Note : His terminology is a bit harsh,but he has some useful statistics.

Wow John, these are some statistics. I have seen some differences through various comparisons... but nothing like this... but, the "thees, thous, thys and thus drive me nuts in the KJV. I have been using the NKJV the most because of what this web site, that web site, her website, his website, their website, etc. suggested. One could (possibly) even look up (10) of our favorite Wof ministries and get several "different" most accurate translation in each of their opinions

I plugged this into Google, "What is the most (accurate) bible translation" and... 699 zillion billion recommendations were offered (exaggerating just a fuzz).:) Has anybody considered making a version that ONLY takes out the thees, thous and the thereto's? In one site (Bible Gateway) quoted that the NASB actually did do that and was first on their list when compared to KJV. Next on their list was NET. I will do more research on these. Perhaps, someone on our Wof forum has already done that. One wonders just who are these 112, 57, 77 or so bible scholars and educators that are making these Changes? What is their background? I Love the Amish but I don't want their interpretations, nor the Quakers. Wouldn't it be nice if just Wof educators get together (not that were better etc)... and come up with version(s) in our area of beliefs. I am sure that even with (Wof)... there would be areas where they would have to agree to disagree.

I have the new Kenneth Copeland Study Bible with (all his notes) and also other study bibles (with their notes) such as Oral Roberts, Morris Cerillo, and Andrew Wommack. Between what I believe (or think I believe) and what they (each) believe... we would ALL have to "agree to disagree" in some areas of either bible translations, or even what Wof teaches from these different translations. I am sure that if I had Kenneth E. Hagin's study bible with his notes (if he had one) it would be the same. What's astonishing is that we can ALL read just "one" bible version and come up with half a dozen different views.

I've seen different "translation comparisons charts" in which were all different which can add to the confusion. One website person asked, "It depends on what you want to use it for." Huh? If I would have responded back to him/her, I would have said "regardless" of how I use it... I would want the most accurate version comparable to the KJV.

I also plugged into Google and asked this, "The thees and thous in the KJV version drives me nuts." It took me to a Yahoo forum site where the main responder suggested this...

"For the best translation, use the word "version" in your search which makes it a fairly safe bet. The word "translation" should be avoided in your search." He may be right for that's where the 699 zillion billion hits came from. He continued to say, "I go with several versions at once, Genova, ASV, ESV, NIV, KJV, KJV+. I mostly only use "KJV" to go along with Strong's Concordance. Truth be told, the thees, thys and thous drive me nuts."

Hmmm... That's exactly what I also said!

Interestingly, another site said the oposite... that he uses the "NKJV" to go along with Strong's Concordance. (talk about confusion)

Here's my best one. I went to earlier "past" discussions (several years back) on this very thing. (Names were changed to protect the innocent):D Clifford says, "I fasted and prayed for days and days and God told me to just read this one only." Clyde said, "well, I done the same and God told me to just only read this other version." By this time Orrville, Leroy and Pudd spoke up and said that God told them to "stay away from those versions." Hmmm... Orrville, Pudd and Leroy must have prayed and fasted more/longer than Clifford and Clyde. They may have felt they heard God "more clearly" and are more spiritual (all paraphrased). How sad, God must be really excited that these kind of things are going on within His Body.

John... I just wanted to add my thoughts so I will be looking for yet another version to study with and will look into NASB and NET versions for now. I won't be shelfing my NKJV away any time soon (too many notes). But..! Then again, some of my notes may be based on those 100,000 errors in the NKJV. :sorry:

Go figure!!
 
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Truthfrees

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Thanks bro, I have a limited knowledge, what I learned in Bible School and I have all the software but I want to be able to talk about stuff with like minded people who understand some of the languages to understand how we got our translations of specific verses and why...

For example... Rom. 10:17 is different in different translations NKJV and KJV are the same and the NASB and ESV are the same but which one is correct and why are they different?

Not a Greek Scholar, but in the example you just gave, both the KJV and the NKJV say "God" because they use the textus receptus version of the Greek manuscript that has "Theos" for God in Romans 10:17. More modern translations (virtually all of them) use older Greek manuscripts, they have "Christos" for Christ. Endless debate about which Greek text is right, but this is a reason many won't let go of their King James Bible.

Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Θεοῦ.
Thats the Greek behind the KJV/NKJV. See the last word? It's Theos (God).

Rom. 10:17 ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ.
Thats the Greek (Nestle/aland) behind NASB/ESV etc. See the last word, it is Christos (Christ).

Font's aren't coming through right, but you get the idea.

Thanks for the replies bro... the reason I am asking is because if it is the word of Christ it actually changes the whole concept of where faith comes from, it is not necessarily the entire word of God but particular portions of the word of God...
Good point. :thumbsup:

Until I know which one is correct I'm going to look at it like this:

1. Christ always agreed with YHWH's words, and often quoted scripture directly, or spoke parables that agreed with scripture.

2. Christ never disagreed with YHWH's words but said HE came to fulfil YHWH's words.

3. Christ is the LIVING WORD and was with the Father BEFORE the creation of the world or the writing of any scripture.

4. Christ said He came to say ONLY the Father's words.

5. All Christ's words and YHWH's words are ANOINTED, which is what Christos means.

Therefore faith comes by hearing the ANOINTED words of YHWH and HIS Christ from Genesis to Revelation.

"So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God - Christ - Anointed." - Romans 10:17
:wave:
 
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The New American Standard is regarded by many scholars as the most literal and accurate english translation. The reason so many still get involved with new translations is that there is disagreement about how to render gender, what reading level to strive for, which Greek text to use, and even if accuracy is best served by a literal approach, or through "dynamic equivalence."
I favored the New American Standard for years, but then switched mainly to the New King James because it also accurate, readable, and follows KJV phrasing. This makes it easier to follow along with preachers who are reading or teaching from the King James.

The NET is a nice new translation, but I wouldn't put in the same category as the NASB or NKJV. I have it and I like it, but I find it has many odd or unusual renderings in places.
 
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Good point. :thumbsup:

Until I know which one is correct I'm going to look at it like this:

1. Christ always agreed with YHWH's words, and often quoted scripture directly, or spoke parables that agreed with scripture.

2. Christ never disagreed with YHWH's words but said HE came to fulfil YHWH's words.

3. Christ is the LIVING WORD and was with the Father BEFORE the creation of the world or the writing of any scripture.

4. Christ said He came to say ONLY the Father's words.

5. All Christ's words and YHWH's words are ANOINTED, which is what Christos means.

Therefore faith comes by hearing the ANOINTED words of YHWH and HIS Christ from Genesis to Revelation.

"So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God - Christ - Anointed." - Romans 10:17
:wave:

Ok, let me ask this question then... assuming we all understand that Christ is NOT Jesus last name but rather that it was a title meaning "the anointed one"

Are we reading this verse then as "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God"

or

"faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ" the anointed word


IOW... does faith come by hearing the word of God or does faith come by hearing the anointed word?
 
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