Origin of Praying To Saints

[Borealis]

Says who?

You neither know that such is a God-pleasing practice OR that Mary can hear you.

As with most of these discussions, it is the source or authority for beliefs and practices that matters. Otherwise, we are only talking about human theories. Fortunately, and as Christians, we have the answers given us by God so that we will not have to guess. That word of God, of course, does not say at all that Mary prays for us or that we are to pray to her.

Fortunately, and as Christians, we recognize that Jesus didn't leave an instruction manual, He left us a Church, and that Church put together the Bible and decided what books were consistent with Christ's teachings.

 

[Albion]

Fortunately, and as Christians, we recognize that Jesus didn't leave an instruction manual, He left us a Church, and that Church put together the Bible and decided what books were consistent with Christ's teachings.

LOL. I'll leave that fantastic and well-worn theory that the books of the Bible didn't exist or weren't known until over three hundred years after Christ. Ordinary history makes a shambles of that argument and so we don't need to go over it again.

But the theory is also unpersuasive since you wouldn't even know about Jesus nor would there be a church if it were not for the revealed, divinely inspired Word of God (what you call a mere " instruction book")!

 

[Borealis]

LOL. I'll leave that fantastic and well-worn theory that the books of the Bible didn't exist or weren't known until over three hundred years after Christ. Ordinary history makes a shambles of that argument and so we don't need to go over it again.

Name one book of the New Testament that was written before the Church was founded in 33 A.D.

But the theory is also unpersuasive since you wouldn't even know about Jesus nor would there be a church if it were not for the revealed, divinely inspired Word of God (what you call a mere " instruction book")!

How do you know we wouldn't know about Jesus? He didn't write anything down, nor did most of the Apostles. They went out and taught orally, even St. Paul.

 

[Albion]

How do you know we wouldn't know about Jesus? He didn't write anything down, nor did most of the Apostles. They went out and taught orally, even St. Paul.

No. It is the written word of God that has guided the churches of Christ since the beginning. You may discount the Bible, but you still reference it to establish almost everything you hold to be true about Jesus or the church he built. When you want to promote Papal Supremacy you quote Matthew. When you want to say that the bread and wine of Communion are really flesh, you quote from the Gospels and say "that's proof." But then you tell us that nothing in there really matters.

 

[livingproofGM]

Says who?

You neither know that such is a God-pleasing practice OR that Mary can hear you.

As with most of these discussions, it is the source or authority for beliefs and practices that matters. Otherwise, we are only talking about human theories. Fortunately, and as Christians, we have the answers given us by God so that we will not have to guess. That word of God, of course, does not say at all that Mary prays for us or that we are to pray to her.

And I have pointed out before, my name isn't in the Bible, is it? You do not have to be in this Bible to be elidgeble for intercession. I have prayed for many people, and I am not requested to do so in the Bible. We are all a family, christians, and we are all called upon to pray for one another.

 

[moses916]

What is the difference of asking you (alive) to pray for me or for a saint (who has already won the good race and is already with the Savior) or better yet the Theotokos, to pray for me?

 

[livingproofGM]

What is the difference of asking you (alive) to pray for me or for a saint (who has already won the good race and is already with the Savior) or better yet the Theotokos, to pray for me?

There is none. People just like to fight.

 

[moses916]

There is none. People just like to fight.

Haha i hear ya

 

[isshinwhat]

Let's use the Bible to find the answer. That's what we were talking about.

This thread is titled "Origin of Praying to Saints," Nothing more, nothing less, therefore, that is what I will discuss. In addition, the 2nd book of Maccabees was called Scripture by not only some Jews of the pre-Christian era, but the early Christians, as well. I have used holy Scripture to support my argument, as this earliest list of a complete Canon states.

"Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun.The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books, Paraleipomenon two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book, likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus one book. Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book,with Ginoth, that is, with his lamentations, Ezechiel one book,Daniel one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books, Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books. Likewise the order of the writings of the New and eternal Testament, which only the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke one book, according to John one book. The Epistles of Paul [the apostle] in number fourteen. To the Romans one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians two, to the Galatians one, to the Phillipians one, to the Colossians one, to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one. Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles one book. Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealut, the Apostle one epistle."
Pope Damasus(regn A.D. 366-384),Decree of,Council of Rome,The Canon of Scripture(A.D. 382),in DEN,33

Now let us stay on target. The topic is the origin of praying to Saints, not the Canon of Scripture. Whether you believe the Deutero-Canon to be inspired or not, we do, and we base part of our belief in prayers to Saints and prayers for the dead on its contents. We do this because Scripture is part of the Tradition of the Church, and has been from the beginning, though there were many different ideas about what was Canonical until the various Councils and Synods defined the limits of Scripture for good. Thus whether or not you believe your Bible supports prayer to Saints, ours does.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Albion]

This thread is titled "Origin of Praying to Saints," Nothing more, nothing less, therefore, that is what I will discuss. In addition, the 2nd book of Maccabees was called Scripture by not only some Jews of the pre-Christian era, but the early Christians, as well. I have used holy Scripture to support my argument, as this earliest list of a complete Canon states.



Now let us stay on target.The topic is the origin of praying to Saints, not the Canon of Scripture..

Very well. The topic has evolved as you know, mainly because of various attempts to answer some other point such as saints praying for US or saints praying to God. But all right, let's stay with the particular topic.

If we are to stay narrowly focused upon the title of the thread, do you seriously think that anyone is going to believe that a single and inconclusive passage in an apocryphal book that was in question from the earliest days of the Church is the "origin of praying to saints?"

Hardly. This verse is merely the best justification that can be come up with by those now who need to point to something to justify a practice that arose for other reasons. As to the specific question of the origin of praying to saints, would you say it was a popular misunderstanding on the part of ordinary Christians that came to be standardized in time, or was it something that the Church itself created later on?

 

[isshinwhat]

If we are to stay narrowly focused upon the title of the thread, do you seriously think that anyone is going to believe that a single and inconclusive passage in an apocryphal book that was in question from the earliest days of the Church is the "origin of praying to saints?"

I have made no claim that one passage from Scripture is the sole basis for invoking the intercession of Saints.

Hardly. This verse is merely the best justification that can be come up with by those now who need to point to something to justify a practice that arose for other reasons. As to the specific question of the origin of praying to saints, would you say it was a popular misunderstanding on the part of ordinary Christians that came to be standardized in time, or was it something that the Church itself created later on?

Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit upon the Church, I would say that prayer to Saints was a natural outflow of the realization of what it means to truly be One Body; a part of Him who had overcome death, even in regards to intercession, communion, and prayer.

 

[Borealis]

If we are to stay narrowly focused upon the title of the thread, do you seriously think that anyone is going to believe that a single and inconclusive passage in an apocryphal book that was in question from the earliest days of the Church is the "origin of praying to saints?"

Since 'sola scriptura' is a false, man-made doctrine anyway, why should it matter to Catholics?

Hardly. This verse is merely the best justification that can be come up with by those now who need to point to something to justify a practice that arose for other reasons.

The Church came before the Bible, as did its teachings.

As to the specific question of the origin of praying to saints, would you say it was a popular misunderstanding on the part of ordinary Christians that came to be standardized in time, or was it something that the Church itself created later on?

Neither, obviously. It was done from the beginning of the Church, and taught by the Apostles.

 

[Albion]

If we are to stay narrowly focused upon the title of the thread, do you seriously think that anyone is going to believe that a single and inconclusive passage in an apocryphal book that was in question from the earliest days of the Church is the "origin of praying to saints?"

Since 'sola scriptura' is a false, man-made doctrine anyway, why should it matter to Catholics?

The question had nothing to do with Sola Scriptura. If you are unable to answer the question, it doesn't say much for your claim that praying to the saints has always been done, and that is supposedly was done because of one passage in an Apocryphal book that was not even included among the Bible books for centuries to follow.

This verse is merely the best justification that can be come up with by those now who need to point to something to justify a practice that arose for other reasons.

The Church came before the Bible, as did its teachings.

Another non-answer. The passage you cited was not the reason people picked up the practice of praying to dead people, whether the Church or the Bible came first.

As to the specific question of the origin of praying to saints, would you say it was a popular misunderstanding on the part of ordinary Christians that came to be standardized in time, or was it something that the Church itself created later on?

Neither obviously. It was done from the beginning of the Church, and taught by the Apostles.

It's certainly not "neither obviously" since those are two common estimates of how the practice of praying to saints originated. Do you have any evidence that it was instead either: 1) done from the beginning, or 2) taught by the Apostles?

 

[Albion]

I have made no claim that one passage from Scripture is the sole basis for invoking the intercession of Saints.

OK, let's not be in doubt. This is what you wrote-- "This thread is titled "Origin of Praying to Saints," Nothing more, nothing less, therefore, that is what I will discuss. In addition, the 2nd book of Maccabees was called Scripture by not only some Jews of the pre-Christian era, but the early Christians, as well. I have used holy Scripture to support my argument, as this earliest list of a complete Canon states."
It appears that you have said that 2nd Maccabees is your source. You mention no other. Is that not so? Then what other passage or evidence do you want to offer, if you now say "I have made no claim that one passage from Scripture is the sole basis for invoking the intercession of Saints."

As to the specific question of the origin of praying to saints, would you say it was a popular misunderstanding on the part of ordinary Christians that came to be standardized in time, or was it something that the Church itself created later on?

Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit upon the Church, I would say that prayer to Saints was a natural outflow of the realization of what it means to truly be One Body; a part of Him who had overcome death, even in regards to intercession, communion, and prayer.

"Guidance of the Holy Spirit." Got any evidence that this is the answer? Or does it just fit any question? How about historical evidence that it always WAS practiced? The testimony of a writer from the first years of church history? A passage in the New Testament describing it? Something??

At some point, it is necessary to get beyond sweeping statements that don't answer the questions. Saying "God did it" really isn't an answer...or if it is, every last denomination and cult is entitled to say the same thing, and then we would never actually engage any question.

 

[Ainesis]

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.

God also commands us not to kill. Yet, there are times in Scripture where He specifically commands His servant to kill. Those specific instances where he directs this action is not a blanket override of the commandment as given.

Unless God overturns the commandment not to bow to or create statues, following His instructions to create specific items does not consitute broad permissions to disregard the command.

 

[Ainesis]

I don't believe she has appeared anywhere, i think the appearances are demonic, because God does not particularily like statues, and because He will not share His Glory with another, as has happened.

 

[Ainesis]

I dunno but this is the only time in the Bible where prayers and passed saints exists, and even then it does not say anyone prayed to a saint passed on.

Why is Rev. 5:8 assumed to be passed saints? That certainly is not evident from the text. Are we not told that our prayers rise to Heaven before God in such a fashion?

"Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice." Pslam 141:2

 

[Ainesis]

Through and with, right here...

Tobit 12:15
I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."</I>

Quote:

Revelation 8:4
...the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Not at all. No where do we see that these are the prayers of those who have departed. Nor do we see that these are prayers offered to the angels. It could very well be the prayers of the saints on earth being presented to God.

 

[Albion]

Not at all. No where do we see that these are the prayers of those who have departed. Nor do we see that these are prayers offered to the angels. It could very well be the prayers of the saints on earth being presented to God.

But it still doesn't matter.

Tobit is not a Bible book, and even if we take both the Tobit verse and the passage from Revelation at face value, neither says anything at all about praying to saints--our topic!

I wonder if we should start to keep score on all the evasions of the question that are offered. For example, we have...

Saints pray to God.

Saints pray to God about us.

God hears prayers.

Saints may pray for us.

We should respect and honor saints.

Saints once were like us.

Saints are alive.

The Church has named various people as saints.


BUT,

none of those comments answers the question, "Should we pray to saints?"

OR, the related question, "When and why did this practice start?" (as posed in this thread as "Origin of Praying to Saints")

 

[Ainesis]

If one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers. If one part of the body receives pleasure, the whole body receives pleasure. Both we in the church on earth and those who have gone on to be with Christ are one body.

John.

But what does that really mean? When a member of the Body is suffering in another part of the world, are you supernaturally aware and able to fellwoship in the suffering of that believer? Are you supernaturally aware of the joy of other believers in the other part of the world when they are experiencing it?

Clearly, there is no supernatural sensitivity we are given to all believers' sorrows and joys. Is it your position that this is a gift bestowed after death?

Lastly, that text seems to illustrate more our common purpose in operating and functioning as one Body. Similar to objectives a working group may have as a team. When the team is successful everyone is successful for we all share in the common goal, etc.

It does not indicate, as you seem to imply, that there is a supernatural "knowing of" or "sharing in" each others individual feelings in the Body.

If I have misunderstood your position, please forgive me.