Opinion on a creation v evolution summary

Not_By_Chance

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I was thinking of posting a summary of why I think it is more logical to believe that God made everything, just the way He said he did, on one of the atheist forums, just to see what answers they came up with to life's big questions, but there is so much hate on some of those sites (why?) that I'm not sure if I should do it. This is the outline of the text I was going to use. I'd appreciate comments on whether I have made any factual errors in this:-

Creation v Evolution – Which is more feasible?


Since scientists have proven beyond reasonable doubt that the universe couldn’t be eternal, there are only two other possibilities – either it was created by an eternal force (usually referred to as God) or it created itself. Since there is no evidence that anything comes from nothing, then the former would seem to be more rational as at least it attributes the miracle of creation to a miracle giver, rather than some unknown random events.

There are so many problems with the theory of evolution and the naturalistic view of the origin of the universe. Here are just a few:-

There is no known process for the creation of the first stars, but several theories as to why they shouldn’t be there at all.

Galaxies exist right at the edge of the observable universe, where even stars should barely exist.

Many of the planets in our own solar system have features that can’t be explained by naturalistic ideas, such as the 7 degree offset of the planets relative to the sun.

The fossil record – it doesn’t support evolution as there should be millions of transitional forms, rather than just a handful of highly-contested examples. Even Darwin admitted that the fossil record didn’t support his theory, but he assumed that in time, further discoveries would confirm his theory. It hasn’t.

The origin of the matter and space itself – where did it come from? How do you know?

The origin of life – how could it have got started on its own from lifeless chemicals? No-one has come up with a plausible process for this. Problems include:-

Chirality of amino acids and proteins –ALL life has one-handed versions of these chemicals, but when the chemicals are generated outside of life, it always results in a racemate (an roughly even mix of right and left-handed molecules). Moreover, when something dies, the chemicals in the creature’s body start doing what they want to do naturally and return to a mixture of right and left-handed molecules. As one biologist once postulated, “What is death anyway? It’s the triumph of chemistry over biology.

The fact that life can’t begin in the presence of oxygen but it can’t continue without it.

The complexity of the living cell – the more that science learns about the way our bodies function, the more it becomes apparent that life is no freak accident. In addition, many of the cell functions are inter-dependent, rather like the old chicken and egg argument. It’s so complex that it is a mind-blowing testament to the power of the Creator, as is the majesty and awesome size of the universe. To state otherwise is to deny the truth.

The Bible in fact gives us a stark warning about what to expect when we abandon God’s truth for a lie. Paul’s letter to the Romans sums it up in no uncertain terms and before you read, ask yourself, how much of this in on the increase today? Here’s the quote:-

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Rom 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Rom 1:29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

Rom 1:30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

Rom 1:31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

When it comes to many of the similarities among molecules, the theory of evolution is not only weak, it has been falsified. That conclusion was expressed by Colin Patterson19 of the British Museum in an address to leading evolutionists which he gave at the American Museum of Natural History.

Patterson first lamented that his topic, creation and evolution, had been forced on him, and then he acknowledged that he had recently been entertaining non-evolutionary or even anti-evolutionary ideas. Why? Because, he said, after twenty years of research in evolution, he asked himself to name just one thing about evolution he knew for sure—and he couldn’t come up with anything! When he asked other leading evolutionists, the only thing anyone could come up with was that “convergence is everywhere.” Finally, Patterson said with dismay, he was forced to conclude that evolution is an “anti-theory” that generates “anti-knowledge”—a concept full of explanatory vocabulary that actually explains nothing and that even generates a false impression of what the facts are.

And there you have it. Do you really believe that the grass underfoot or the trees that blow in the wind are your [admittedly very-distant] relatives? Why not give God the glory instead, rather than trying to come up with fudge factors like Dark Matter and Dark Energy to prop up theories that are clearly wrong? All they tell us is that there is only about 4% of the universe that is understood. That’s not very much is it?
 
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You've got a lot of stuff. I'll just comment on a few.

>> Since there is no evidence that anything comes from nothing <<

The Big Bang Theory doesn't propose everything from nothing. You need to learn what the theory actually says.

>> There is no known process for the creation of the first stars, <<

Ideas about the formation of primordial or Population III starts have been around for decades.
http://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/ESSAYS/Carr/carr.html

>> The fossil record – it doesn’t support evolution as there should be millions of transitional forms, <<

Please explain to us why there should be millions of transitional fossils. And don't scrimp on the process of fossilization and how the environment effects how likely fossilization is.

>> The complexity of the living cell <<

Plant and animal cells appear to be the result of symbiosis between two prokaryotic organisms.

>> Colin Patterson <<

Poor Colin Patterson. Doomed to be quote mined eternally by Creationists.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I was thinking of posting a summary of why I think it is more logical to believe that God made everything, just the way He said he did, on one of the atheist forums, just to see what answers they came up with to life's big questions, but there is so much hate on some of those sites (why?) that I'm not sure if I should do it. This is the outline of the text I was going to use. I'd appreciate comments on whether I have made any factual errors in this:-

Creation v Evolution – Which is more feasible?


Since scientists have proven beyond reasonable doubt that the universe couldn’t be eternal, there are only two other possibilities – either it was created by an eternal force (usually referred to as God) or it created itself. Since there is no evidence that anything comes from nothing, then the former would seem to be more rational as at least it attributes the miracle of creation to a miracle giver, rather than some unknown random events.

Actually they proved that the universe as we know it started roughly 13 billion years ago. And when you say that "something cannot come from nothing" you need to define nothing first. Actually there could have been something before our current universe existed. And what you are making a false dichotomy and worse yet assuming that your God would have to be the God that started the universe.

There are so many problems with the theory of evolution and the naturalistic view of the origin of the universe. Here are just a few:-

There is no known process for the creation of the first stars, but several theories as to why they shouldn’t be there at all.

Actually there is. It is called "gravity".

Galaxies exist right at the edge of the observable universe, where even stars should barely exist.

Why? You do not seem to realize that the actual universe could be much much larger than the observable universe. You need to talk to a physicist that can explain to you how the universe expanded and what that means.


Many of the planets in our own solar system have features that can’t be explained by naturalistic ideas, such as the 7 degree offset of the planets relative to the sun.
What? More clarity and a valid source should be cited. You may not be able to link yet, with the new hardware I am unaware of when newbies are allowed to link.

The fossil record – it doesn’t support evolution as there should be millions of transitional forms, rather than just a handful of highly-contested examples. Even Darwin admitted that the fossil record didn’t support his theory, but he assumed that in time, further discoveries would confirm his theory. It hasn’t.

Why do you think that there are only a handful? You do realize that millions of fossils have been found since Darwin's time, don't you? The fossil record can only be explained by the theory of evolution. Creationists have no explanation of it at all.

The origin of the matter and space itself – where did it come from? How do you know?

This has nothing to do with evolution. Again you are back to the Big Bang. Even if the answer is "don't know" that does not imply a god did it.

The origin of life – how could it have got started on its own from lifeless chemicals? No-one has come up with a plausible process for this. Problems include:-

Chirality of amino acids and proteins –ALL life has one-handed versions of these chemicals, but when the chemicals are generated outside of life, it always results in a racemate (an roughly even mix of right and left-handed molecules). Moreover, when something dies, the chemicals in the creature’s body start doing what they want to do naturally and return to a mixture of right and left-handed molecules. As one biologist once postulated, “What is death anyway? It’s the triumph of chemistry over biology.

I do believe that the chirality problem may have been solved. And by the way, now you are talking abiogenesis, not evolution. Even if life was magically poofed into existence it would still have evolved once it was here.

The fact that life can’t begin in the presence of oxygen but it can’t continue without it.

No, only some life can't life without molecular oxygen. Some does just fine without it.

The complexity of the living cell – the more that science learns about the way our bodies function, the more it becomes apparent that life is no freak accident. In addition, many of the cell functions are inter-dependent, rather like the old chicken and egg argument. It’s so complex that it is a mind-blowing testament to the power of the Creator, as is the majesty and awesome size of the universe. To state otherwise is to deny the truth.

Now you are back to abiogenesis again. No one is proposing a freak accident for abiogenesis.

The Bible in fact gives us a stark warning about what to expect when we abandon God’s truth for a lie. Paul’s letter to the Romans sums it up in no uncertain terms and before you read, ask yourself, how much of this in on the increase today? Here’s the quote:-

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Rom 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Rom 1:29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

Rom 1:30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

Rom 1:31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

That is merely a defensive verse. Many religions have such verses. They are not very impressive.

When it comes to many of the similarities among molecules, the theory of evolution is not only weak, it has been falsified. That conclusion was expressed by Colin Patterson19 of the British Museum in an address to leading evolutionists which he gave at the American Museum of Natural History.

Patterson first lamented that his topic, creation and evolution, had been forced on him, and then he acknowledged that he had recently been entertaining non-evolutionary or even anti-evolutionary ideas. Why? Because, he said, after twenty years of research in evolution, he asked himself to name just one thing about evolution he knew for sure—and he couldn’t come up with anything! When he asked other leading evolutionists, the only thing anyone could come up with was that “convergence is everywhere.” Finally, Patterson said with dismay, he was forced to conclude that evolution is an “anti-theory” that generates “anti-knowledge”—a concept full of explanatory vocabulary that actually explains nothing and that even generates a false impression of what the facts are.

I am sorry but that is simply a quote mine and quote mining is extremely dishonest. I can quote mine the Bible too, but that is frowned upon here. Quote mining is taking quotes out of context and implying that the speaker meant something that he did not. It is usually a clear breaking of the 9th commandment and should be avoided. If you have valid arguments against the theory of evolution you should be able to do so without doing that.

And there you have it. Do you really believe that the grass underfoot or the trees that blow in the wind are your [admittedly very-distant] relatives? Why not give God the glory instead, rather than trying to come up with fudge factors like Dark Matter and Dark Energy to prop up theories that are clearly wrong? All they tell us is that there is only about 4% of the universe that is understood. That’s not very much is it?

We have strong evidence that shows the grass under our feet is a very distant relative. Even if your God does exist it does not take any glory away from him to acknowledge that fact. What you just did was to spray a bunch of unrelated claims, half of them not even dealing with evolution, and made a huge argument from ignorance. There are various people here that can help you with the details on your various questions. This is a good place to learn some science if you are willing to learn. Also bear in mind that the theory of evolution does not debunk your God. It merely tells us that much of Genesis is a morality tale at best. But much of that was known even before Darwin's time. Geology was still a young science but they had thoroughly refuted the flood story of Noah by that time, linguists had shown how new languages are formed. Darwin only took out the very start of the Bible.

But welcome to the Forum. I hope you have a profitable stay here.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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You've got a lot of stuff. I'll just comment on a few.

>> Since there is no evidence that anything comes from nothing <<

The Big Bang Theory doesn't propose everything from nothing. You need to learn what the theory actually says.

>> There is no known process for the creation of the first stars, <<

Ideas about the formation of primordial or Population III starts have been around for decades.
http://ned.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/ESSAYS/Carr/carr.html

>> The fossil record – it doesn’t support evolution as there should be millions of transitional forms, <<

Please explain to us why there should be millions of transitional fossils. And don't scrimp on the process of fossilization and how the environment effects how likely fossilization is.

>> The complexity of the living cell <<

Plant and animal cells appear to be the result of symbiosis between two prokaryotic organisms.

>> Colin Patterson <<

Poor Colin Patterson. Doomed to be quote mined eternally by Creationists.

I'll come back to you when I've researched your questions.
 
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The Cadet

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I was thinking of posting a summary of why I think it is more logical to believe that God made everything, just the way He said he did, on one of the atheist forums, just to see what answers they came up with to life's big questions, but there is so much hate on some of those sites (why?) that I'm not sure if I should do it. This is the outline of the text I was going to use. I'd appreciate comments on whether I have made any factual errors in this:-

Creation v Evolution – Which is more feasible?

Before you make your case, I'd like to point something out. There are numerous people who either study evolution or use it as a tool in their professional lives. Virtually anyone in biology sees evolution not just as a theoretical model, but a model of practical application. We've used knowledge gleaned from it to discover new fossils, to help treat HIV, to help further genetic modification and breeding practices in agriculture, even to write better computer programs. There is a massive interdisciplinary consensus among trained scientists. There are more biologists with the name "Steve" who believe in evolution than biologists who doubt it. That should say something.

So before you continue your screed, think about this for the moment. Is it fair to assume that you have not had any formal training in evolutionary biology? That you aren't exactly a PhD biologist, paleontologist, virologist, geneticist, archaeologist, anthropologist, or member of any other field that may have relevant expertise? Because among those who do have relevant expertise, the answer is almost universal - "Evolution is the only viable explanation for the diversity of life on this planet". You can find more historians who deny the holocaust than biologists who deny evolution.

So I dunno. Which one is more viable? Others have gone over the myriad errors in your OP (many of which can be addressed simply by linking to talkorigin's "Index of Creationist Claims" - the Chirality one is there, for example), but I think this is the real sticking point. You, a layperson, have examined the evidence and come to a conclusion which is diametrically opposed to an interdisciplinary, nigh-global consensus of millions of trained scientists. Ask yourself for a moment - what's more likely, that they're all wrong or in on some conspiracy, or that you just don't have your facts straight? I think the former is really, really arrogant, personally.

I strongly recommend you watch this two-video series by C0nc0rdance. It's his response to a challenge by a creationist to prove that evolution is true. C0nc0rdance is a biological chemist who has worked extensively on trying to find ways to treat HIV, and the theory of evolution has been a fundamental tool his group used to do so. If you can't or don't want to watch both videos, that's fine - it's 20 minutes, and I probably wouldn't listen to, say, Ben Stein ramble on for 20 minutes. But please at least watch the last few minutes of the second video, starting from this timestamp, at least from like 8:48 until about 10:00. He really lays out the point I'm trying to make in a perfectly elegant way.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Just a few initial thoughts on some of what has been said above.

Population III stars
A good article about problems with this can be found here: http://creation.com/stellar-evolution-and-the-problem-of-the-first-stars

Actually there is. It is called "gravity".
I would recommend watching the second DVD by Spike Psarris for further explanations about the many problems with the naturalistic interpretation for the origin of the universe, including why gravity would not be a valid explanation for the formation of the first stars.

The Big Bang Theory doesn't propose everything from nothing.
Well. I've heard it called a "singularity", but even if that were what really happened, it would have had to have come from somewhere. Whichever way it is presented, it sounds like magic to me and therefore just a faith-based statement as no-one can prove it one way or the other.

You do not seem to realize that the actual universe could be much much larger than the observable universe.
Yes, it could be, but that would still mean that galaxies had formed long before even stars were supposed to have formed. Again, I would recommend Spike Psarris's excellent DVD for more on this.

Please explain to us why there should be millions of transitional fossils.
Even Darwin stated that this should be the case. I don't understand why you would say that there shouldn't be large numbers of intermediate forms in the fossil record if macro evolution had really taken place.

Plant and animal cells appear to be the result of symbiosis between two prokaryotic organisms
I'll need to look that one up, but (and I'm not a scientist myself), I would have thought that these organisms were more complex that the single living cell I referred to in my original text.

Actually there could have been something before our current universe existed.
But that doesn't solve the problem; it just pushes it farther back in time.

The fossil record can only be explained by the theory of evolution. Creationists have no explanation of it at all.
Yes they do, it's called Noah's flood.

Even if life was magically poofed into existence it would still have evolved once it was here
Not according to the information I have seen. There are many excellent DVDs on this subject, including the latest "Evolution's Achilles Heels", but others such as Dr David Mentons "Evolution - Not a Chance" cover this very well.

I am sorry but that is simply a quote mine and quote mining is extremely dishonest.
This wasn't intended to be a dishonest quote. It's something I found stored on my PC. I cannot remember where I got it, but if that's what the man actually said, in what way was he misrepresented?

Also bear in mind that the theory of evolution does not debunk your God.
I'm afraid that it if evolution could be shown to be true, it would do just that, because Jesus, who claimed to be and is God the Creator, quoted liberally from the book of Genesis. If Genesis weren't a true historical account, it would mean that there were no sin and therefore, no need for a Saviour. In addition, if Jesus were not God, many of his teachings would point to his being insane. As C S Lewis pointed out, you can reject Jesus as being God incarnate or you can accept Him for what He is, but you can't just call him a good teacher - He hasn't left us that option.
 
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The Cadet

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The fossil record can only be explained by the theory of evolution. Creationists have no explanation of it at all.
Yes they do, it's called Noah's flood.

The idea of Noah's flood does not gel with what we see in the fossil record. In the fossil record, we see a clear layering of more basic animals further down in the geologic column and more advanced, more modern creatures closer to the top. A singular flood, however, would have every fossil in the same layer. This is simply not what we see. What's more, we can date the fossils and find that they existed at completely different times. Noah's flood simply does not explain the available evidence, and indeed is contradicted by much of it.

Also bear in mind that the theory of evolution does not debunk your God.
I'm afraid that it if evolution could be shown to be true, it would do just that, because Jesus, who claimed to be and is God the Creator, quoted liberally from the book of Genesis. If Genesis weren't a true historical account, it would mean that there were no sin and therefore, no need for a Saviour. In addition, if Jesus were not God, many of his teachings would point to his being insane. As C S Lewis pointed out, you can reject Jesus as being God incarnate or you can accept Him for what He is, but you can't just call him a good teacher - He hasn't left us that option.

That's kind of unfortunate for you then. :/
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Before you make your case, I'd like to point something out. There are numerous people who either study evolution or use it as a tool in their professional lives. Virtually anyone in biology sees evolution not just as a theoretical model, but a model of practical application. We've used knowledge gleaned from it to discover new fossils, to help treat HIV, to help further genetic modification and breeding practices in agriculture, even to write better computer programs. There is a massive interdisciplinary consensus among trained scientists. There are more biologists with the name "Steve" who believe in evolution than biologists who doubt it. That should say something.

So before you continue your screed, think about this for the moment. Is it fair to assume that you have not had any formal training in evolutionary biology? That you aren't exactly a PhD biologist, paleontologist, virologist, geneticist, archaeologist, anthropologist, or member of any other field that may have relevant expertise? Because among those who do have relevant expertise, the answer is almost universal - "Evolution is the only viable explanation for the diversity of life on this planet". You can find more historians who deny the holocaust than biologists who deny evolution.

So I dunno. Which one is more viable? Others have gone over the myriad errors in your OP (many of which can be addressed simply by linking to talkorigin's "Index of Creationist Claims" - the Chirality one is there, for example), but I think this is the real sticking point. You, a layperson, have examined the evidence and come to a conclusion which is diametrically opposed to an interdisciplinary, nigh-global consensus of millions of trained scientists. Ask yourself for a moment - what's more likely, that they're all wrong or in on some conspiracy, or that you just don't have your facts straight? I think the former is really, really arrogant, personally.

I strongly recommend you watch this two-video series by C0nc0rdance. It's his response to a challenge by a creationist to prove that evolution is true. C0nc0rdance is a biological chemist who has worked extensively on trying to find ways to treat HIV, and the theory of evolution has been a fundamental tool his group used to do so. If you can't or don't want to watch both videos, that's fine - it's 20 minutes, and I probably wouldn't listen to, say, Ben Stein ramble on for 20 minutes. But please at least watch the last few minutes of the second video, starting from this timestamp, at least from like 8:48 until about 10:00. He really lays out the point I'm trying to make in a perfectly elegant way.

It's quite true, I'm not a scientist, but I would say that strength in numbers doesn't necessarily equate to truth. There are scientists on both sides of the argument who are much more clever than I could ever hope to be and this is the tragedy of it all in that the general public don't know who to believe. Perhaps the time has come for ALL scientists, whatever their beliefs, to come together and debate these issues. Our origins is probably the most important question that we are all searching for an answer to as it is closely tied to our destiny, both at a personal level and in the wider sense. There ought to be many more televised live debates, with the public being given the chance to ask questions of the experts.
 
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Papias

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This is the outline of the text I was going to use. I'd appreciate comments on whether I have made any factual errors in this:-

NBC, First, welcome to the forums!

Having read your OP, I see a lot of stuff that's going to need more study and thought. Perhaps first and foremost among them is the idea that accepting evolution is somehow anti-Christian or anti-Bible. Looking back and the history of the finding of the evidence for evolution, we can see that most of the people who did so were Christians, including Christian monks, ministers, and priests. Today, most of the support for evolution comes from Christians. Evolution is an idea developed mostly by Christians, for Christians, in support of Christian theology.

It's also extremely well supported. There is more evidence showing that evolution is a fact than there is for the existence of the US Civil War. Here si a summary of some of that evidence: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ The more some Christians claim that evolution didn't happen, the more Christianity will look like a crackpot flat-earth religion.

I know there are a lot of creationists out there, with websites and preachers decrying evolution as the spawn of the pit of hell.

However, there are also millions of Christians who see evolution as perfectly compatible with Christianity.

I know what it is like to be convinced of something, and I'm sure you've heard many other Christians say that evolution is evil for a long time. However, please take the time to look into both sides with an open mind.

One place to start with examining the evidence for evolution is at www.talkorigins.org. There are plenty of others - including any high-school or college level biology class.

Important things to realize (and check these out, don't just take my word for it) are:

  • Practically all scientists support evolution, and have for decades. It's simply not a controversy. While there is disagreement about minor points (such as whether ambulocetus was 70% vs. 80% aquatic), the basics are agreed upon. Compare any creationist "list" with Project Steve, times 100.
  • The evidence for evolution includes all kinds of stuff, not just fossils. DNA tests alone would be enough to prove evolution beyond a shadow of a doubt, even if there were no fossils. Others are phylogeny, biogeography, ontogeny, pathology, agriculture, and many others.
  • There are tons of excellent series of clearly transitional fossils. The horse, whale, mammal, fish to amphibian, amphibian to reptile and many others series are so clear that creationists generally just avoid them, and don't deny that they are clear.
  • Creationists don't agree on their basics. You can see this from OEC websites. Those creationists say the earth is billions (>2,000,000,000) of years old, while most creationists say it is about 6,000 years old.
  • Geologists (including thousands of Christians) worldwide overwhelmingly reject the idea of a young earth and a global flood, based on evidence. They have agreed on this for over 150 years, deciding this long before Darwin published his book.
  • Creationists rely almost solely on a handful of deceptive tactics. These include moving the goalposts, being evasive/misleading (AiG does that alot), quote mining (which you’ve no doubt seen – google it), ignoring/hiding evidence (very common), and less often, outright fraud.
  • The majority of Christians worldwide are in churches that accept evolution. Evolution is as firmly proven as the existence of the Civil War, and the harder fundamentalists fight against it, the more damage they will do to Christianity, by making people think the Christianity is deception.
Take your time. There is no time limit to decide on evolution, and it will take time to test all of the statements above.

In Christ Jesus-

Papias
 
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Before you make your case, I'd like to point something out. There are numerous people who either study evolution or use it as a tool in their professional lives. Virtually anyone in biology sees evolution not just as a theoretical model, but a model of practical application. We've used knowledge gleaned from it to discover new fossils, to help treat HIV, to help further genetic modification and breeding practices in agriculture, even to write better computer programs.

This is an often-quoted fallacy, that belief in evolution is required to advance scientific discovery. It's nothing of the kind. Historical science has nothing to do with the science that made computers or put men on the moon.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Just a few initial thoughts on some of what has been said above.

Population III stars
A good article about problems with this can be found here: http://creation.com/stellar-evolution-and-the-problem-of-the-first-stars

I have a problem with people using sites that order their workers to abandon the scientific method in a scientific argument. And please note that they make an error almost immediately, they say that "evolutionists" claim that the first stars appeared sometime after the Big Bang. That would be wrong. Evolution is a biological science when the word is not used with any qualifiers. They mean cosmologists or astronomers. If they get something that simple wrong how good can the rest of their argument be. If you want detailed answers go as Essential Saltes here.
[/quote]
Actually there is. It is called "gravity".
I would recommend watching the second DVD by Spike Psarris for further explanations about the many problems with the naturalistic interpretation for the origin of the universe, including why gravity would not be a valid explanation for the formation of the first stars.[/quote]

I might do that. Bear in mind that these people are the laughing stock of the scientific world.

The Big Bang Theory doesn't propose everything from nothing.
Well. I've heard it called a "singularity", but even if that were what really happened, it would have had to have come from somewhere. Whichever way it is presented, it sounds like magic to me and therefore just a faith-based statement as no-one can prove it one way or the other.

Wrong, just because you can't understand something is not evidence that is is a faith based belief. I don't understand how penicillin works. Does that men that if I have a bad infection I should not let a doctor treat it with some sort of antibiotic? My acceptance of his medicine is not faith based.

You do not seem to realize that the actual universe could be much much larger than the observable universe.
Yes, it could be, but that would still mean that galaxies had formed long before even stars were supposed to have formed. Again, I would recommend Spike Psarris's excellent DVD for more on this.

It sounds like a hoot, I probably will.

Please explain to us why there should be millions of transitional fossils.
Even Darwin stated that this should be the case. I don't understand why you would say that there shouldn't be large numbers of intermediate forms in the fossil record if macro evolution had really taken place.

No, he did not state that. You are misunderstanding his words. And you there are so many fossils now that almost all fossils are considered to be "transitional". Yes, we do not have a movie picture. We have what amounts to a very very detailed family album. And you need to remember, creationists have no explanation of the fossil record that has not been thoroughly refuted.

Plant and animal cells appear to be the result of symbiosis between two prokaryotic organisms
I'll need to look that one up, but (and I'm not a scientist myself), I would have thought that these organisms were more complex that the single living cell I referred to in my original text.

Actually there could have been something before our current universe existed.
But that doesn't solve the problem; it just pushes it farther back in time.

You do not seem to realize that any arguments claiming that something had to create the universe are equally valid at pointing out that something had to create your God. All you are doing with a God idea is to push the problem further back. Most atheists do not believe in any gods because there is no reliable evidence for any gods.

The fossil record can only be explained by the theory of evolution. Creationists have no explanation of it at all.
Yes they do, it's called Noah's flood.

Nope, that nonsense was debunked long before Darwin came along. I could help you with that.

Even if life was magically poofed into existence it would still have evolved once it was here
Not according to the information I have seen. There are many excellent DVDs on this subject, including the latest "Evolution's Achilles Heels", but others such as Dr David Mentons "Evolution - Not a Chance" cover this very well.

But you have already shown that your sources are not valid. Sources that abandon the scientific method are not very good at refuting science.

I am sorry but that is simply a quote mine and quote mining is extremely dishonest.
This wasn't intended to be a dishonest quote. It's something I found stored on my PC. I cannot remember where I got it, but if that's what the man actually said, in what way was he misrepresented?

I know, but it is a sad habit that most creationists get into. You may not have been the originator of the quote mine, you are just copying the work of another. The original person who did it did know that he was being dishonest. I would suggest that if you want to quote someone from the evolution side that you find the original source, not the creationist quote of that source, that way you won't fall into this trap.

Also bear in mind that the theory of evolution does not debunk your God.
I'm afraid that it if evolution could be shown to be true, it would do just that, because Jesus, who claimed to be and is God the Creator, quoted liberally from the book of Genesis. If Genesis weren't a true historical account, it would mean that there were no sin and therefore, no need for a Saviour. In addition, if Jesus were not God, many of his teachings would point to his being insane. As C S Lewis pointed out, you can reject Jesus as being God incarnate or you can accept Him for what He is, but you can't just call him a good teacher - He hasn't left us that option.

Yes, but Jesus often used allegory, parables, and other teaching tools. His uses of Genesis were usually of a poetic nature. Never does he say that that story was real.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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The idea of Noah's flood does not gel with what we see in the fossil record. In the fossil record, we see a clear layering of more basic animals further down in the geologic column and more advanced, more modern creatures closer to the top. A singular flood, however, would have every fossil in the same layer. This is simply not what we see. What's more, we can date the fossils and find that they existed at completely different times. Noah's flood simply does not explain the available evidence/

A single flood would have produced many layers of rock. I have seen experimental evidence to support this. Digging vertically down into a rock layers therefore does not represent real time, since the rock layers would not have been formed that way. Dating is often a circular argument (the fossils used to date the rock layers and vice versa), so it not really that useful.
 
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Subduction Zone

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This is an often-quoted fallacy, that belief in evolution is required to advance scientific discovery. It's nothing of the kind. Historical science has nothing to do with the science that made computers or put men on the moon.

It has quite a bit to do with biology. The formulation of AIDS medicines relies heavily upon this science.
 
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Subduction Zone

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A single flood would have produced many layers of rock. I have seen experimental evidence to support this. Digging vertically down into a rock layers therefore does not represent real time, since the rock layers would not have been formed that way. Dating is often a circular argument (the fossils used to date the rock layers and vice versa), so it not really that useful.
No, this is simply another creationist fallacy. There is so much nonsense here I don't know where to begin. You need to stop listening to professional liars.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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NBC, First, welcome to the forums!
Creationists rely almost solely on a handful of deceptive tactics. These include moving the goalposts, being evasive/misleading (AiG does that alot), quote mining (which you’ve no doubt seen – google it), ignoring/hiding evidence (very common), and less often, outright fraud.The majority of Christians worldwide are in churches that accept evolution. Evolution is as firmly proven as the existence of the Civil War, and the harder fundamentalists fight against it, the more damage they will do to Christianity, by making people think the Christianity is deception.

Thank you for the points you have made. However, there is mass deception in the evolutionary area as well (remember the peppered moths, for example).

Actually, I think that creationists are strengthening Christianity, rather than weakening it, because if you start taking apart the Bible and saying that some parts can be trusted, while others cannot, how do you decide which is truth and which is not? In the following passage, note how scripture is described: "2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." [my emphasis added] If we cannot trust ALL scripture, then doesn't that indicate that God is being deceptive/economical with the truth?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Thank you for the points you have made. However, there is mass deception in the evolutionary area as well (remember the peppered moths, for example).

Actually, I think that creationists are strengthening Christianity, rather than weakening it, because if you start taking apart the Bible and saying that some parts can be trusted, while others cannot, how do you decide which is truth and which is not? In the following passage, note how scripture is described: "2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." [my emphasis added] If we cannot trust ALL scripture, then doesn't that indicate that God is being deceptive/economical with the truth?
The problem is that since all of the scientific evidence supports only the theory of evolution and standard geology and physics to believe creationism you ultimately have to believe in a deceptive God. That also runs contrary to Christian thought.
 
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