[OPEN] Please welcome bumblebee123 who has some questions

[tapero]

Hi, Am opening this for Bumblebee123 at her request.

Thanks,
Tapero

 

[Torah]

Shalom, Bumblebee123

 

[bumblebee123]

Thank you for opening this for me!

I have been trying to ask people to explain why they believe Jesus is the Messiah because I don't understand and I no one has ever explained it to me. What I don't understand is how come he didn't fulfill the prophecies, but he is still thought to be a Messiah. No one has been able to answer this for me yet, I hope that someone here can. thank you

 

[Espada]

Shalom BumbleBee.

I and I am sure most of the MJs here believe that Rabbi Yeshua did indeed fulfil many of the prophecies - just not in the way many of the Jews of the time were expecting.

Are there any specific prophecies you are refering to?

 

[bumblebee123]

Shalom BumbleBee.

I and I am sure most of the MJs here believe that Rabbi Yeshua did indeed fulfil many of the prophecies - just not in the way many of the Jews of the time were expecting.

Are there any specific prophecies you are refering to?

Bringing world peace
Bringing all the Jews back to Israel
Building a third Temple
Univeral Knowledge of G-d
Descendant of King David

People seem to be getting mad on my other post when I say he didn't fulfill these things, but no one will answer the question...I hope you can.

 

[Espada]

We tend not to get mad so easily. Could you provide the scriptural references to the individual prophesies though, it just makes our lives that much easier.

We will start with the easy one being of the line of David. I read an article by a rabbi just the other week saying the same thing and pointing to the Gospel of Matthew and saying that the inheritance of a line could not come through adoption and so Yeshua could not inherit the line but if we look at the Gospel of Luke we have a line which takes a different route from David but instead of ending in Yosef as Matthew's account does, this ends in Miriam.

Now Miriam had no brothers and as such the inheritance from her father would go to her husband. As Yeshua was Miriam's son through blood then he would also be able to inherit the lineage from Miriam and Yosef. I don't think I have explained it well but Yeshua is in the line of David.

 

[bumblebee123]

Ezekiel 37:26-28
Jer 31:33
Isaiah 11:9
Isaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah 2:4

no, you explained it very well, I understand it better now.

 

[Espada]

I will try to come back to you later with some answers. It is time for shabbat here so I must go.

 

[Yehoshua]

Go to Amazon.com. Order Dr. Michael Brown's "Answering Jewish Objects to Jesus" Volume 3, which deals specifically with the issues you bring up, in a much more thorough way than we can on a messageboard.

 

[ChavaK]

Bringing world peace
Bringing all the Jews back to Israel
Building a third Temple
Univeral Knowledge of G-d
Descendant of King David

People seem to be getting mad on my other post when I say he didn't fulfill these things, but no one will answer the question...I hope you can.

Hi bumblebee, just wanted to welcome you
to the fourms!חג כשר ושמח

 

[Tishri1]

Hi BB How was Your Passover?

 

[Espada]

Okay Ezekiel 37:26-28. This answer comes in two parts, first the now part. As believers in Messiah, we have the Holy Spirit living within us and the Messianic Writings describe our bodies as temples so G-d is literally living within us. Messianic believers also have a spiritual peace from Him living in us.

There is also the future aspect of this. Rabbi Yeshua will return, He spoke of this in the Gospels, the book of Revelation also speaks of this. After this second coming of Yeshua then we will make a dwelling with G-d.

More later.

 

[Ahava]

Hello bumblebee123,

Nice to meet you.

In the time of Jesus most people were farmers of some type or at least had an acute agricultural understanding.

The early rains and the later rains refer to 2 commings of Jesus.

The early rains, Spring rains, refer to the 1st comming and include the passover (where His blood covers the sins of all believers) and first fruits (His resurection)...

The later rains, or the fall feast, include Rosh Hashana, Sukkot and Yom Kippur (Day of Attonement). These are yet to be fulfilled and will be fulfilled at His 2nd comming. Rosh Hashana, is the beginning of the year (Jewish calendar) and is the time of the 2nd comming. We do not know the year or the time of day but Rosh Hashana is 'the day no man knows'. Sukkot or Feast of Tabernacles is a time when we will live/tabernacle with Him. Then there is Yom Kippor, the Day of Judgement. At that time all people, believers and non believers will be judged according to the books as is stated in Revelations.

Hope that helps.

 

[CShephard53]

Hey-
This is part of a quote I have on the other thread, addressing each Scripture you gave there (I'd encourage you read it also- it has some things that I omitted in this post because they were off topic to this thread):

Thank you for giving Scripture.
Let's address each:

Ezekiel 37:26-28

Eze 37:26 "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
Eze 37:27 "My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.
Eze 37:28 "And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."'"

How is that contradictory to Jesus? It's stating the setting up of an eternal covenant. How was it an unfulfilled prophecy? It's predicted again in Revelation- the Millennial Reign. It's not something the Messiah was to bring on His first coming; indeed, that was not the point of His first coming. The point was to die on the cross, sacrificing Himself for our sins- so all we have to do is believe in Him and follow Him- repenting rather than offering sacrifices.

Jer 31:33

This points to Jesus also:

Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Sin will be remembered no more. That's what Jesus brought. And the bit about writing God's law on hearts is done by the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 11:9

Isa 11:1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
Isa 11:3 And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist.
Isa 11:6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.
Isa 11:7 Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den.
Isa 11:9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.
Isa 11:11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.


It's talking about the vipers not hurting anyone once Jesus sets up God's Kingdom when He comes again. Same with the leapords, bears, goats, and other animals that would normally tear each other apart lying down together without tearing each other apart.

Isaiah 43:5-6

Isa 43:1 But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
Isa 43:2 "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
Isa 43:3 "For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
Isa 43:4 "Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
Isa 43:5 "Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
Isa 43:6 "I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' And to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
Isa 43:7 Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made."
Isa 43:8 Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
Isa 43:9 All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, "It is true."


This passage is talking to Israelites. Not about Jesus.

Isaiah 2:4

Isa 2:2 Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it.
Isa 2:3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.

"In the last days" means when this age is past- when all things are made new. It lines up with the NT, and has not happened yet because this age is not over. Again stated in Revelation.

You want to know why I personally believe in Jesus? Because He actually lived, died, and rose again. Because He has power over death and provided a way to get to heaven, helping me to overcome my weakness, allowing me to be shaped and molded into who God wants me to be. Because He gives my life meaning. That's why I believe.
My beliefs are not based on tradition. They are not based on blind faith. They are based on completely reliable historical fact. Some things must be taken by faith, but the Bible is not something I take by faith. There is more than enough evidence in my life to prove that it's accurate- answers to prayer, circumstances, the speed at which my life has been cleaned up, and many more things that would take too many words to post now. PM me if you want more 'why's'.

Hope that helps.

Jaws

 

[visionary]

You want to know why I personally believe in Jesus? Because He actually lived, died, and rose again. Because He has power over death and provided a way to get to heaven, helping me to overcome my weakness, allowing me to be shaped and molded into who God wants me to be. Because He gives my life meaning. That's why I believe.
My beliefs are not based on tradition. They are not based on blind faith. They are based on completely reliable historical fact. Some things must be taken by faith, but the Bible is not something I take by faith. There is more than enough evidence in my life to prove that it's accurate- answers to prayer, circumstances, the speed at which my life has been cleaned up, and many more things that would take too many words to post now. PM me if you want more 'why's'.

Hope that helps.

Jaws

I believe first because I "know" Him from personal and on going relationship with Him. All the other things Jaws mentioned here is just icing on the cake.

 

[A_Pioneer]

Bringing world peace
Bringing all the Jews back to Israel
Building a third Temple
Univeral Knowledge of G-d
Descendant of King David

People seem to be getting mad on my other post when I say he didn't fulfill these things, but no one will answer the question...I hope you can.

It is a matter of the blindness on Jews and the blindness of the Christian, Hebrew were blinded so that the rest of the Nations could be brought in, but the Christians stuck a log into their eyes by thinking they became the "New Chosen People/Relpacement Theology".

Since the Hebrews are back in their land and the decendant of David are taken care of there is the world Peace, the Temple, every man knowing God and the restoration of Gan Eden.
These things were not fulfilled in the first coming and the Christians who do not have logs in their eyes also know that all the scriptures of the Messiah are not yet fulfilled, this is for you and I the "Second coming" and to the Hebrew the first coming, all these things will be taken care of.

Until he comes again we are to keep saying "Know the Lord." Convincing a few. Keep on watching for his coming and endure to the end of the age.

Shalom

 

[Aviva]

Hi Bumblebee, nice to see you on the forum.

 

[christianmomof3]

Thank you for opening this for me!

I have been trying to ask people to explain why they believe Jesus is the Messiah because I don't understand and I no one has ever explained it to me. What I don't understand is how come he didn't fulfill the prophecies, but he is still thought to be a Messiah. No one has been able to answer this for me yet, I hope that someone here can. thank you

Those are good questions.
My question is where did the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? What does it include? Is there a list somewhere? And has the list changed over time?

The verses that you listed in another post do not use the word "Messiah". So, how did the whole concept of the Messiah come about?

The only two verses in the Bible that use the term "messiah" are in Daniel 9:25 and 26.

So it seems that the Jewish "messiah" concept is one that is built up from different verses in the Bible - different prophesies taken from different people and places and put together.

I find it interesting that on the Jews for Judaism site where they show prophesies about the messiah they only chose to list the ones that they feel are unfulfilled. Of course that is their purpose there, but even on Jewfaq, they have the same list. There are many other verses in the Old Testament that refer to Christ that are not mentioned on the Jewish sites that have been fulfilled, but it seems that they chose to ignore them because their point is to prove that Jesus is not the messiah rather than to show exactly what the concept of the Messiah is built upon. In fact, it would seem that the concept has most likely changed within Judaism because for the past 2000 years now they have been trying not to explain what the messiah will be, but also that it or He is not or was not Jesus, so the whole focus has been changed or corrupted.

I think that before Jesus arrived on the scene, the Jewish concept of the Messiah was that He would be a person - a man, who would deliver them from the tyranny of the Romans. That belief was influenced by the political situation of those times.
Now the Jewish concept of the Messiah is influenced by trying to prove that Jesus is not the Messiah.

I was raised in Reform Judaism and had never really heard of the Messiah. I asked my father after I became a Christian what he thought the Messiah was. He thought that the Messiah would not be a person, but a time of peace and prosperity in the world. Apparantly that is or was an accepted belief within reform Judaism about the Messiah.

It is interesting.

I believe first because I "know" Him from personal and on going relationship with Him. All the other things Jaws mentioned here is just icing on the cake.

This is my experience also. I know that Jesus is God because I experience Him as such. I don't need "proof" because I know Him personally. It is interesting to learn about the facts from the Bible because I love the Lord and the more I know about how wonderful He is the more wonderful He becomes to me. But, I already know that He is God. I already know that He is wonderful.
The more I learn just adds to that.

 

[Henaynei]

I believe first because I "know" Him from personal and on going relationship with Him. All the other things Jaws mentioned here is just icing on the cake.

but what prompted you to seek or be open to Him in the first place so that you *could* have that personal ongoing relationship with Him?

 

[christianmomof3]

but what prompted you to seek or be open to Him in the first place so that you *could* have that personal ongoing relationship with Him?

I know this question was not to me, but I would like to share my answer to this.
I was not seeking God.

A friend of mine who had prayed for me for 3 years shared the gospel with me in the form of a little gospel tract.
It had the "sinner's prayer" in it to pray to Jesus at the end.
I read through the tract with her - she had it sitting out on a table and I picked it up and asked about it.

I had some questions that she could not answer easily. She called her husband in and he suggested that I just pray the prayer.

I briefly considered it and decided that if Jesus was not God and I prayed to Him, I was just wasting my breath and that if by some slim chance He was God (which I really did not think He was) then I was not wasting my breath. I really had no expectations and did not even know why I was praying to Jesus other than it did not seem like it would do any harm.

But, after I prayed to Him, and was baptised that night in their bathtub, my whole life changed.
I was incredibly joyful and had no idea why. The outward situations in my life had not changed.
But I had changed inwardly.
When my friend asked me to read the Bible with her and pray with her, I got a response from God!
It was rather unexpected.
I had no idea what was going on actually.
But I learned that this new life that was within me was and is the Lord Himself as Jesus Christ my savior, the living God who went through the process of incarnation, sinless human living, death and resurrection so that He could become the Life-Giving Spirit who can enter into the human spirits of His believers and dwell within us so that we can all know Him.