Once saved, always saved?
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Montalban
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Follow Christ. He established 'The Way' which one experiences in his church.
If you're having difficulty with understanding my questions (the ones you don't answer) just let me know. If it's a matter of time, or you don't understand them. It's just now several days have passed.
They were: when was your bible canonised, and by whom?
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Hebrews 6:4-8 NIV 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
People who fall away under persecution won't be saved.
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M
MamaZ
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who cares when and by who. What matters is that it has been and that the word of God will never pass away.
Actually in order to be saved one must be born again and it is not of mans choosing but of Gods Sprit.
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.
MY VIEW ON 'ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED'
I fully and completely embrace all that Scriptures have to say, which means I reject OSAS...
Gospel:
Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "
Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.
John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."
Law:
John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."
1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."
John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."
Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."
Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"
Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."
Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."
2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."
Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.
Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."
As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human "LOGIC" and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.
The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it.
Thank you.
Pax
- Josiah
.
MY VIEW ON 'ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED'
I fully and completely embrace all that Scriptures have to say, which means I reject OSAS...
Gospel:
Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "
Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.
John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."
Law:
John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."
1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."
John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."
Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."
Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"
Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."
Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."
Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."
2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."
Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.
Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."
As so often in theology, we find there are "two sides of the coin." To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallable, sinful, human "LOGIC" and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.
The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it.
Thank you.
Pax
- Josiah
.
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Hi CaliforniaJosiah 
I've seen a few of your posts; I think you have the right idea about a lot of things. However, posting so many verses without commentary might be confusing. I don't know how some of the verses apply to OSAS.
I've seen a few of your posts; I think you have the right idea about a lot of things. However, posting so many verses without commentary might be confusing. I don't know how some of the verses apply to OSAS.
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Did you read the verses? They say what they say they say.Hi CaliforniaJosiah
I've seen a few of your posts; I think you have the right idea about a lot of things. However, posting so many verses without commentary might be confusing. I don't know how some of the verses apply to OSAS.
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Rick Otto
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Originally Posted by MamaZ
It isn't understanding your questions that is difficult, it is conveying to you the error of the assumptions they are based on. Just letting you know.
I hope you do enough good works to get you into heaven, if that is possible. According to the way I read scripture (regardless of what canon its in) we are saved by mercy, not works. Also, the way I read history, it is Pelagius who is credited with initiating the novel idea that "the fall" didn't effect our will for some reason, and that by excersing it correctly, we get saved, Christ having only providing the opportunity, not delivering us the actual salvation until we deliver on the works. Pay for performance, you could say.
So by your own free will what must you do to be saved?
What difference does it make how much of the canon I'm using agrees with either yours or the RCC's?
It isn't understanding your questions that is difficult, it is conveying to you the error of the assumptions they are based on. Just letting you know.
I hope you do enough good works to get you into heaven, if that is possible. According to the way I read scripture (regardless of what canon its in) we are saved by mercy, not works. Also, the way I read history, it is Pelagius who is credited with initiating the novel idea that "the fall" didn't effect our will for some reason, and that by excersing it correctly, we get saved, Christ having only providing the opportunity, not delivering us the actual salvation until we deliver on the works. Pay for performance, you could say.
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Montalban
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by MamaZ
So by your own free will what must you do to be saved?What difference does it make how much of the canon I'm using agrees with either yours or the RCC's?
It isn't understanding your questions that is difficult, it is conveying to you the error of the assumptions they are based on. Just letting you know.
I hope you do enough good works to get you into heaven, if that is possible. According to the way I read scripture (regardless of what canon its in) we are saved by mercy, not works. Also, the way I read history, it is Pelagius who is credited with initiating the novel idea that "the fall" didn't effect our will for some reason, and that by excersing it correctly, we get saved, Christ having only providing the opportunity, not delivering us the actual salvation until we deliver on the works. Pay for performance, you could say.
You're not MamaZ, but you don't want to answer it either. Fair enough. It's okay that people such as yourself make comments about EO canon, when it was formed, what books it contains, what books it ought not contain etc. But when I ask you about your canon you don't answer.
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Uphill Battle
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here's the tickle.
Jesus himself said that if our righteousness didn't far surpass that of the theological leaders, we wouldn't get a sniff of heaven.
anyone want to raise their hand and say they are better at upholding law than pharisees?
didn't think so.
so NATURALLY we should conclude we're all hellbound, shouldn't we.
Jesus himself said that if our righteousness didn't far surpass that of the theological leaders, we wouldn't get a sniff of heaven.
anyone want to raise their hand and say they are better at upholding law than pharisees?
didn't think so.
so NATURALLY we should conclude we're all hellbound, shouldn't we.
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and don't we just find ourselves doing the same darn thing.
funny how history repeats itself!
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Uphill Battle
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no, I think people don't typically see the forest for the trees.
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O. Ryan Faust
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The question: "Can you lose your salvation" is logically absurd. "Lose" implies to unintentionally or accidentally cease to be aware of the presence or location of something; whether tangible or intangible. Have you ever had a day when you didn't "feel" saved? Sure, we all have. Technically speaking, you 'lost' your salvation, but it didn't mean anything did it?
When you received the 'heavenly gift', it wasn't delivered by UPS or Fedex. Being intangible, salvation was not put in your keeping. Therefore it can't be stolen, dropped, broken or "lost" by you. Quite the contrary, it is kept by the power of God.
The real question is "Does there exist a situation or course of events that might result in the blotting-out of your name from the Book of Life?".
This question is thoroughly answered in Hebrews 6:4-10; the definitive treatment of this subject.
In a nutshell, the Heb 6:4 passage places four requirements or qualifications on the individual to whom it applies. It states unequivocally that it only applies to those with the following four qualifications:
1. Enlightened
2. Partaker of the heavenly gift
3. Inclusion in the "Holy Spirit club", and
4. tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
John 1:9 says that Jesus is the true Light, "which enlightens every man that comes into the world." so everyone will be enlightened at the time of God's choosing at some point in their life.
Not all who are enlightened lay hold on the heavenly gift by exercising their faith and laying hold on God's grace. But those who do obtain salvation.
Those who are "saved" may receive the Holy Spirit. Many believe it's "automatic", others (including myself) believe the anointing of the spirit is separate from receiving the heavenly gift and must be asked for. But it is listed here as the third of four requirements before God will accept the decision to defect from the faith.
The fourth and final condition is to have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.
Do you even qualify to "defect from the faith"? It's my opinion that not many Christians even qualify to defect from the faith, but God requires you to meet these four requirements before he'll accept your decision to defect from the faith.
With that under your belt, read Hebrews 6:4-10:
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The word "away" is a mistranslation. It should read "fall alongside". If you are aligned with Christ and you "fall alongside", the implication is that you "fall alongside" the enemy of Christ; Satan. It would have been better translated "defect".
Christ died once. You can only apply his sacrifice for your sins once. His shed blood is sufficient to atone for your sins past, present and future. That's why not just anyone can defect from the faith. You must know what you're doing and understand that you can't be renewed unto repentance (can't come back). Salvation isn't a revolving door. Once you're born into Christ's family and defect to the enemy, you can't be restored through repentance even once.
Hebrews 10:26 calls this the "willful sin":
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
I would pray that anyone who meets the four criterion to commit the 'willful sin' would be mature enough in the faith that they wouldn't be stupid enough to defect from the faith. So it seems logical that it would be an empty category. But Revelation 3:5 implies some names will be blotted out of the book of life:
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Can you lose your salvation? Trick question, no good answer.
Can you defect from the faith? Only if you qualify, but it's a willful decision, not an accidental occurrence, and you are held responsible for the resulting "judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".
When you received the 'heavenly gift', it wasn't delivered by UPS or Fedex. Being intangible, salvation was not put in your keeping. Therefore it can't be stolen, dropped, broken or "lost" by you. Quite the contrary, it is kept by the power of God.
The real question is "Does there exist a situation or course of events that might result in the blotting-out of your name from the Book of Life?".
This question is thoroughly answered in Hebrews 6:4-10; the definitive treatment of this subject.
In a nutshell, the Heb 6:4 passage places four requirements or qualifications on the individual to whom it applies. It states unequivocally that it only applies to those with the following four qualifications:
1. Enlightened
2. Partaker of the heavenly gift
3. Inclusion in the "Holy Spirit club", and
4. tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
John 1:9 says that Jesus is the true Light, "which enlightens every man that comes into the world." so everyone will be enlightened at the time of God's choosing at some point in their life.
Not all who are enlightened lay hold on the heavenly gift by exercising their faith and laying hold on God's grace. But those who do obtain salvation.
Those who are "saved" may receive the Holy Spirit. Many believe it's "automatic", others (including myself) believe the anointing of the spirit is separate from receiving the heavenly gift and must be asked for. But it is listed here as the third of four requirements before God will accept the decision to defect from the faith.
The fourth and final condition is to have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.
Do you even qualify to "defect from the faith"? It's my opinion that not many Christians even qualify to defect from the faith, but God requires you to meet these four requirements before he'll accept your decision to defect from the faith.
With that under your belt, read Hebrews 6:4-10:
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The word "away" is a mistranslation. It should read "fall alongside". If you are aligned with Christ and you "fall alongside", the implication is that you "fall alongside" the enemy of Christ; Satan. It would have been better translated "defect".
Christ died once. You can only apply his sacrifice for your sins once. His shed blood is sufficient to atone for your sins past, present and future. That's why not just anyone can defect from the faith. You must know what you're doing and understand that you can't be renewed unto repentance (can't come back). Salvation isn't a revolving door. Once you're born into Christ's family and defect to the enemy, you can't be restored through repentance even once.
Hebrews 10:26 calls this the "willful sin":
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
I would pray that anyone who meets the four criterion to commit the 'willful sin' would be mature enough in the faith that they wouldn't be stupid enough to defect from the faith. So it seems logical that it would be an empty category. But Revelation 3:5 implies some names will be blotted out of the book of life:
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Can you lose your salvation? Trick question, no good answer.
Can you defect from the faith? Only if you qualify, but it's a willful decision, not an accidental occurrence, and you are held responsible for the resulting "judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".
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