Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[Bible Highlighter]

OSAS believers do not believe that "Jesus is doing the good work through you"

Then why pray to Jesus so as not to be led into temptation?
(See Matthew 26:41).

Why do the Scriptures say the following?

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory in great joy," (Jude 1:24 NHEB).

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (2 Timothy 4:18).

In addition, there is one more verse I would like to add to this list.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, ..."
(2 Peter 2:9).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Eternal Security can easily be disproved by pointing out the surrounding context of a verse that supposedly proves it. For there hasn't been a verse (that supposedly proves Eternal Security) that I was not able to refute using Scripture.

In fact, I am not sure how a person can read the Bible and ignore all the verses that refute the unbiblical teaching of Eternal Security. For when a person reads their Bible they will see a refutation of Eternal Security in the majority of the New Testament (and in some cases, depending on the book, they will see a refutation of Eternal Security on almost every page). Therefore, I beg everyone here (who believes in Eternal Security and who has an open heart to receive the seed of God's Word into their heart) to re-examine what they believe and look at the following verses by way of prayer. For if I am wrong, I have nothing to lose (because I do not believe in Works Alone Salvationism; I believe in Relationship-ism with God by Faith in Jesus Christ). But if the Eternal Security Proponent is wrong, they have everything to lose. Anyways, here is a...

Long List of Verses Refuting Eternal Security or OSAS
(Once Saved Always Saved):

• Genesis 3:4 - Satan says you shall not surely die to Eve. This is the same lie that is being pushed upon believers today. This lie is: "Sin (Break God's Commands) and you will not die." (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:3, and 2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
• Matthew 5:22 - Jesus says that whosever says "You fool" to a person, they are in danger of hell fire.
• Matthew 5:28-30 - Jesus says you can be cast bodily into hell fire for looking upon a woman in lust.
• Matthew 6:15 - Jesus says if you do not forgive, the Father will not forgive you.
• Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.
• Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.
• Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.
• Matthew 12:36-27 - You can condemned by your words at the Judgment.
• Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.
• Matthew 13:41-42 - Jesus will send forth His angels and gather all out of His Kingdom who offend and do iniquity and cast them into the furnace of fire.
• Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.
• Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.
• Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.
• Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.
• Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)
• Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).
• Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.
• Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.
• John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).
• John 8:47 - He that is of God hears God's words.
• John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.
• John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.
• John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?
• Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.
• Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
• Romans 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.
• Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.
• Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.
• Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
• 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.
• 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.
• 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
• Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.
• Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.
• Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
• Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
• Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.
• Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.
• Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
• … so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.
• Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.
• Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
• Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.
• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.
• 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.
• 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.
• 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).
• 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.
• Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.
• Titus 1:16 - We can deny the Lord by a lack of works.
• Titus 2:12 - The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously in this present world.
• Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?
• Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
• Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.
• Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).
• Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).
• Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
• Hebrews 5:9 - Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
• Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
• Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.
• Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
• Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
• Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (without which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.
• Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.
• James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.
• James 1:21 - lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
• James 2:17 - Faith without works is dead.
• James 2:24 - By works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
• 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.
• 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.
• 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.
• 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.
• 1 John 1:7 - If we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
• 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
• 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.
• 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.
• 1 John 2:29 - Everyone that does righteousness is born of Him [Christ].
• 1 John 3:7-8 - He that does righteousness is righteous; And he that commits sin is of the devil.
• 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
• 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.
• Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality
• Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.
• Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13 above).
• Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).
• Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.
• Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.
• Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
• Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.
• Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.
• Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.
• Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.

Source:
Your handy-dandy long list of verses against OSAS
(Note: I added a few more to their list).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Also, Eternal Security or OSAS has led people into a life style of sin. It is not a matter of debate, but it is a fact. I can provide testimonies to show this very fact. So it does not matter if people who believe in OSAS here are living in a lifestyle of sin or not. The fact of the matter we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it (or to treat grace as a license to sin). How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony​

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[stuart lawrence]

In reference to the false OSAS interpretation on Romans 6:14 that says we are not under no Law whatsoever but under grace: The context says,

22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:22-23).

16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
(Romans 6:16-18).

So okay. We are servants or slaves to righteousness. That is how we are free from sin. It says we used to be servants of sin as a part of our old life. It says we became servants to God with our fruit unto holiness and the end... everlasting life. Yet, the contrast is that that the wages of sins is death but the free gift is eternal life thru Jesus Christ our Lord.

6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7).

That the body of sin might be destroyed, hence, why we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Romans 6:5).

Jesus says deny yourself, pick up your cross and come follow me
(Matthew 16:24).
Paul says offer your body as a living sacrifice unto God which is our reasonable service (Romans 12:1).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:" (1 Peter 4:1-4).

Romans 6:15
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).

The New Living Translation says,

16 "Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.
17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you.
18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living."

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

Two laws are mentioned in Romans 8:2.
One New Covenant.
And one Old Covenant.
The first Law sets us free from the other Law.
This means Law still exists.
This makes sense because Jesus said I came not to abolish Law (Matthew 5:17).
And the author of Hebrews says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).



...

Few understand or are willing to accept Paul's message.
No one was more in earnest to attain heaven under a righteousness of observing the law than Saul the Pharisee. Yet when his eyes were opened he saw the result of this was, he became the chief of sinners. That is where his religion took him.
In romans ch7, such an illuminating chapter Paul goes into detail as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness, the result of following that route is clearly laid out
He said:
The power of sin is the law(of righteousness)1 cor15:56

Therefore Paul knew that if you die to a law of righteousness sin shall not be your master, for the true power of sin has been removed from your life.
Only a small handful on websites such as these could ever understand Paul's message, for most on these sites are dedicated to studying scripture with the academic mind, and filling that mind with various theologies based on what their mind tells them.
They then make scripture conform to whatever their mind sways them to believe.
The Holy Spirit has been shut out. And with that happening, true spiritual discernment of the true message is rendered impossible.
It is tragic, so many dedicate their lives to studying the word, bereft of the only one who can truly enlighten them concerning it

 

[supescritter]

Well again, we have to remember, the devil said to Eve,

"Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).​

This same lie is being pushed today by the OSAS crowd.
You can sin (i.e. break God's commands) and you will not die.

Does this lie from the devil still apply to believers today?

Yes. For Paul says,

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3).

13 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

What is the simplicity of Christ?

Well, Jesus's words are simple. Yet, others did not understand Him (even today).

For example: Jesus said to the Pharisees,

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:34).

Now, why did the Pharisees not understand Jesus?
Jesus says those who are of God hears (obeys) God's Word.

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

John says, in 1 John 3:10,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

John also said in 1 John 2:29,
"Ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

In addition, John also said,
7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil."
(1 John 3:7-8).

Jesus said that the Pharisees desired to sin (i.e. to kill Jesus) because His word had no place within them.

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you." (John 8:37).

Jesus says if we keep His sayings, we will never see death (i.e. Meaning we will have everlasting life).

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." (John 8:51).

Christ's words here are simple.

Are you keeping the words of Jesus whereby you will then not see death?

It's simple to understand.


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Hi Jason,

can we address the topic of the burden of sin? You said that the OT has 613 laws, which you say cannot be followed, but you also say that the NT has 1050 laws which I contend are even more difficult to follow because menial sins like white lies and wanting to upgrade to the new Iphone 8 will send you to hell according to CS believer's interpretation of Rev 21:8. Every tiny little thing sends you to hell including thought crime to the nth degree (anger, irritation, annoyance, greed (such a broad definition), lust, cowardice, every single lie etc. etc.)

Also, in the garden of eden Adam was only given a handful of laws: take care of the garden, go forth and multiply, don't eat of the fruit. It wasn't a burden. I believe Jesus' sacrifice restores us to this peaceful state but you're saying that the NT puts on us an even greater burden than what was placed on the OT Jews.

Can we discuss this please? You've made good points, so this is one of the last points I want to explore as this is the most difficult part of believing in CS theology: the strictness of what is implied in Revelations 21:8. Verses such as those that praise Rahab's lie that saved the spies don't make sense any more. If we are to believe in CS, then we must explore the possibility that even the smallest falling away in sins mentioned in Rev 21:8 can send you to hell, since Rev 21:8 gives a general list and doesn't specify even to the degree of the 10 Commandments, then we must then assume that anything could be sinful (that is lying, or wanting something etc.). For example, the 10 Commandments say do not give false testimony, which implies that telling your friend she doesn't look fat is not breaking the 10 commandments, but by Rev 21:8 that would send you to hell.

Thanks.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason,

can we address the topic of the burden of sin?

Well, sin is not a burden or a problem for those believers who truly desire to stop sinning by God's power working in them and by the methods to overcome sin within His Word.

I have given you these methods in God's Word by private chat. The problem I have is that you are not looking in doing the right thing by seeking to overcome sin by His Word but you are still questioning whether you should do so or not. You are on the fence in doing what is good here. Hence, why you see sin as a burden. To those who desire to do good and to dedicate all areas of their life to Christ will in time overcome sin. For the believer who generally walks uprightly most of the time and the believer who has overcome sin does not think that sin is a burden for them because they have crucified the affections and lusts (See Galatians 5:24). For he [the person] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1). But you keep leaning towards the easy and wide gate path. You have no problem in thinking it is okay to sweep God's morals under the carpet or to not treat God's goodness as seriously by teaching a sin and still be saved type belief. Therein lies the problem of why you do not understand Conditional Salvation as taught in God's Word. Paul talking about circumcision salvation and the Jews (Romans 3:1) says, "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." (Romans 3:8). Whether you say such a thing or not, the point is that OSAS is a doctrine that allows you to do evil and yet despite that evil, good may still come.

You said that the OT has 613 laws, which you say cannot be followed,

No. You are saying that. I believe it was possible for a born again OT saint abiding in the Lord to follow the Old Law (while under the Old Covenant), too. It would be wrong of God to give us commands that we can be punished for disobeying them if He knew there could be no way for us to obey them. That would be like a man hitting his dog for pooping on his carpet with him knowing that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem.

but you also say that the NT has 1050 laws

Actually, again. I didn't say that this was the exact number of Commands in the New Testament. This was just a gathered collection of laws in the New Covenant by a particular church from their website. Some laws on their list are repeats and there are a few laws or commands that are not on their list that I found. So the number 1,050 was not meant to be an accurate number of the total number of NT Commands as shown to us in Scripture.

which I contend are even more difficult to follow because menial sins like white lies and wanting to upgrade to the new Iphone 8 will send you to hell according to CS believer's interpretation of Rev 21:8.

So you would find it easier to keep an endless amount of ceremonies, go to war, revisit the same past sins every year to a priest with bringing an animal sacrifice, and be comforted with the idea of being put to death if you break certain laws by God? Yeah, I do not think you have a clue. The Scriptures say that Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14). Also, it is sad that you would think that you cannot confess of your sins so as to be forgiven and to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. If you are lying even a little, God can forgive you if you confess these sins and you ask for His help to forsake them (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7). Lying for your own self interests is wrong because we are supposed to represent the Truth who is Jesus Christ (Whereby we are to deny ourselves and pick up our cross and follow Him). As for upgrading to the new Iphone 8: I do not see how that is a sin. Please explain. Are you suggesting that lying so as to get a free upgrade or something? Why would you want to do that? Do you not see that as wrong? Our treasures are in heaven and not here upon this Earth.

Also, how can one be a light to the world amongst a crooked and perverse nation if one is just as crooked and perverse as them? For it is written,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." (Philippians 2:15).

Every tiny little thing sends you to hell including thought crime to the nth degree (anger, irritation, annoyance, greed (such a broad definition), lust, cowardice, every single lie etc. etc.)

So you do not see a way of escape from these things? You believe it is impossible to overcome these sins? Do you think it would be unfair of God to destroy a person’s soul and body in the Lake of Fire for lying, lusting sexually, hating, and seeking to be rich? Does not God deserve the right to set a standard of morality or goodness within His universe and to judge and reward everyone accordingly? It seems to me like you do not see these sins as all that big of a deal to God. Therein lies the problem. The Scriptures say, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9).

Also, anger, annoyance, and irritation are not necessarily sins unto death. A person can be angry at unrighteousness or sin. A person can be annoyed or irritated by a fly or a horrible noise. That does not mean it is a serious sin. For the Scriptures say there are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins unto death are any sins that lead unto the Second Death (or the Lake of Fire) like murder, hating people, adultery, theft, idolatry, and coveting. Sins not unto death would be like not being baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21), causing divisions (1 Corinthians 3:1-15), and or hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

Also, in the garden of eden Adam was only given a handful of laws: take care of the garden, go forth and multiply, don't eat of the fruit. It wasn't a burden. I believe Jesus' sacrifice restores us to this peaceful state but you're saying that the NT puts on us an even greater burden than what was placed on the OT Jews.

Jesus did not restore us back to the Garden. There is more than just one command. Man also does not currrently live in a paradise. Man also has the knowledge of good and evil and he is fallen and in sin (Whereby he needs to be born again so as to walk uprightly). So I would say Jesus has not yet restored man back to the way it was in the Garden yet.

The New Covenant Laws are based on love. Love God and love your neighbor. When you learn to love, you will find in time that it truly is not a burden. Jesus said His yoke is easy. But it is still a yoke or a burden. A yoke is a wooden bar or frame by which two draft animals (such as oxen) are joined at the heads or necks for working together.



This was a burden for the animal.

Jesus says deny yourself, pick up your cross (suffer), and follow me (Mark 8:34).

The Scriptures say we are to walk in the same way Christ walked (1 Peter 4:1-8) (Philippians 2:5-13) (1 John 2:6 cf. 1 John 2:3-6).

But to say that the OT Law was less of a burden than keeping the NT Law is just not true.

You merely have not studied the two closely enough or you are being biased to seeing what you want to see so as justify OSAS (Which just sounds easier). But what is easier does not mean that it is right.

Can we discuss this please? You've made good points, so this is one of the last points I want to explore as this is the most difficult part of believing in CS theology: the strictness of what is implied in Revelations 21:8.

You act like I wrote it. I didn’t. I am just the messenger. Revelation 21:8 stands as it is written. You either believe it or you don’t believe it. The choice is yours of course.

Revelation 21:8 says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. The writer of Revelation (i.e. John) did not say there was another group of liars who are an exception to this truth he mentioned.

As a matter of fact, Jesus considers lying to be associated with the devil. For Jesus says the following to the Pharisees in how they are like the devil.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44).

Verses such as those that praise Rahab's lie that saved the spies don't make sense any more.

Rahab did not break the 9th Commandment and lie (According to the Command). She was using the art of war in protecting the interests of God's people. For she did not lie to protect herself or to cover up another sin or anything of that nature.

For in wartime or in protecting your loved ones or God's people, a person can use the art of war to defend that which is good. This sometimes unfortunately involves deceiving and or eliminating your enemy; However, these things are not done out of selfish ambition, but they are done in order to preserve innocent lives or to protect the common good.

For the Hebrew midwives had lied to the Pharaoh's servants to protect the innocent (Exodus 1).

And King David pretended he was crazy when he was not crazy in front of the enemy king of Gath named "Achish" (1 Samuel 21:10-15).

Also, Elisha deceived the enemy when they were blinded by lying about where he was taking them. (2 Kings 6:19)

In addition in Joshua 8:
Joshua himself went in battle against the city of Ai, they pretended that they were being defeated and they retreated. They weren’t being defeated—it was a trap. The Israelites deceived them.

Please take note that God told Joshua to lay an ambush for the army at Ai. If you were to read the chapter, this ambush involved deception. In other words, God was telling Joshua to deceive their enemies as a part of the art of war.

However, if a certain spirit was telling Joshua to lie so as to cover up a sin and or his own embarrassment or shame about something, then that would be a wrong spirit who was trying to make Joshua break the 9th Commandment.

If we are to believe in CS, then we must explore the possibility that even the smallest falling away in sins mentioned in Rev 21:8 can send you to hell, since Rev 21:8 gives a general list and doesn't specify even to the degree of the 10 Commandments, then we must then assume that anything could be sinful (that is lying, or wanting something etc.).

First, keeping the Saturday Sabbath is not mentioned in Revelation 21:8. In fact, the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command with a potential death penalty attached to it if you didn't obey it in the Old Covenant. In fact, Paul says we are not to judge according to Sabbaths (Colossians 2:16). Paul also says some regard one day over another and others regard all days alike (Romans 14:5).

Second, we do not need to assume anything in regards to what sins are serious enough to condemn us and which sins are minor transgressions or faults (that will not condemn us). We can just read and believe what the Bible says. Revelation 21:8 lists sins we know are morally wrong. The Bible lists these sins elsewhere and mentions how they will have dire consequences for one’s soul in the afterlife, as well (Galatians 5:4, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Ephesians 5:3-5, Colossians 3:5-7, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:36-37, Matthew 25:41-46, Luke 9:26, 1 John 3:15).

Remember, Jesus said we will be judged by His words (John 12:48). He says in John 12:48 if we do not receive His words, those very words will judge us on the last day. For example: Jesus says, "If you do not forgive, the Father will not forgive you." (Matthew 6:15). So if you do not forgive in this life and refuse to repent of such a sin, Jesus will quote to you these words in Matthew 6:15 (Because you didn't receive these words from Him into your heart).

For example, the 10 Commandments say do not give false testimony, which implies that telling your friend she doesn't look fat is not breaking the 10 commandments, but by Rev 21:8 that would send you to hell.

There is a difference between lying and not saying anything. Jesus did not reveal His mission of going to the cross to His enemies. Jesus did not make an open show of His power in being the Eternal Living Word to people. Jesus could have used His power fully as God. But He didn’t. Jesus could have declared openly to others (leaving no room for doubt that He was God). But Jesus did not do that. Just because Jesus hid certain things from people does not mean Jesus lied. Hiding a truth and lying are two different things.

Thanks.

You are most welcome.
I hope what I said here has helped you to see God's Word in what it says.
May God bless you.
And please be well.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for the statement that essentially says that: "FEW people understand that we have to die to a law of righteousness" (as meaning "all law"):

Well, this is not true. Most people in the church here in America, Europe, and certain other countries believe in a form of Once Saved Always Saved. It is the popular wide gate path because this belief ultimately says you can "sin and still be saved" (on some level) (Which is wrong because God does not reward good for those who do evil. For God will render to every man according to His deeds; For God is not a respecter of persons. - See Romans 2:6-15).

FEW people are actually striving to follow Jesus today. Yet, Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it (Matthew 7:14).


...

 

[supescritter]

Well, sin is not a burden or a problem for those believers who truly desire to stop sinning by God's power working in them and by the methods to overcome sin within His Word.

I have given you these methods in God's Word by private chat. The problem I have is that you are not looking in doing the right thing by seeking to overcome sin by His Word but you are still questioning whether you should do so or not. You are on the fence in doing what is good here. Hence, why you see sin as a burden. To those who desire to do good and to dedicate all areas of their life to Christ will in time overcome sin. For the believer who generally walks uprightly most of the time and the believer who has overcome sin does not think that sin is a burden for them because they have crucified the affections and lusts (See Galatians 5:24). For he [the person] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1). But you keep leaning towards the easy and wide gate path. You have no problem in thinking it is okay to sweep God's morals under the carpet or to not treat God's goodness as seriously by teaching a sin and still be saved type belief. Therein lies the problem of why you do not understand Conditional Salvation as taught in God's Word. Paul talking about circumcision salvation and the Jews (Romans 3:1) says, "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." (Romans 3:8). Whether you say such a thing or not, the point is that OSAS is a doctrine that allows you to do evil and yet despite that evil, good may still come.

I am trying to explore the truth of God's Word, please don't waste time trying to judge me or my motives. This is a forum: for discussing a topic - not each other. I have not made judgments on your character, and I would appreciate if you would refrain from making judgments on mine.

Also, anger, annoyance, and irritation are not necessarily sins unto death. A person can be angry at unrighteousness or sin. A person can be annoyed or irritated by a fly or a horrible noise. That does not mean it is a serious sin. For the Scriptures say there are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins unto death are any sins that lead unto the Second Death (or the Lake of Fire) like murder, hating people, adultery, theft, idolatry, and coveting. Sins not unto death would be like not being baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21), causing divisions (1 Corinthians 3:1-15), and or hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

I am talking about anger, annoyance, irritation at someone. I am relating back to the sermon on the mount, when Jesus says being angry (wrongly) at someone is committing murder.

The New Covenant Laws are based on love. Love God and love your neighbor. When you learn to love, you will find in time that it truly is not a burden. Jesus said His yoke is easy. But it is still a yoke or a burden. A yoke is a wooden bar or frame by which two draft animals (such as oxen) are joined at the heads or necks for working together.

I agree with you. And that's the problem, love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself was all I felt I had to focus on. I felt that the sermon on the mount was focusing on the principle of a commandment, not the outward appearance. The problem is a CS interpretation of verses like Rev 21:8 takes that away. Instead of focusing on love, it forces one to at least be partly motivated by avoidance of hell.

But to say that the OT Law was less of a burden than keeping the NT Law is just not true.

You merely have not studied the two closely enough or you are being biased to seeing what you want to see so as justify OSAS (Which just sounds easier). But what is easier does not mean that it is right.

absolutely not! The OT never says that telling a white lie ("you don't look fat" or "great!" when someone asks you whether you're having a nice day when you're not) will send you to hell, you are telling me that telling a white lie WILL send you to hell.

The NT takes OT laws to a whole new level. The sermon on the mount says it's not the outward act, but the inward thoughts. How is that not a much bigger burden if every little thought can send you to hell? Let's be honest with ourselves! Not one of us on this board has killed anybody, but I guarantee ALL of us are guilty of committing murder by the Sermon on the Mount standard. You're losing credibility with me by arguing otherwise.

Believing in OSAS does not make the Sermon on the Mount a burden - it makes the believer realize how God wants us to be and therefore inspires us to aspire to a higher level. Once you make the Sermon on the Mount as the blueprint for sending to hell, it turns it into a terrifying prospect instead.

.

Revelation 21:8 says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. The writer of Revelation (i.e. John) did not say there was another group of liars who are an exception to this truth he mentioned.

As a matter of fact, Jesus considers lying to be associated with the devil. For Jesus says the following to the Pharisees in how they are like the devil.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44).



Rahab did not break the 9th Commandment and lie (According to the Command). She was using the art of war in protecting the interests of God's people. For she did not lie to protect herself or to cover up another sin or anything of that nature.

For in wartime or in protecting your loved ones or God's people, a person can use the art of war to defend that which is good. This sometimes unfortunately involves deceiving and or eliminating your enemy; However, these things are not done out of selfish ambition, but they are done in order to preserve innocent lives or to protect the common good.

For the Hebrew midwives had lied to the Pharaoh's servants to protect the innocent (Exodus 1).

And King David pretended he was crazy when he was not crazy in front of the enemy king of Gath named "Achish" (1 Samuel 21:10-15).

Also, Elisha deceived the enemy when they were blinded by lying about where he was taking them. (2 Kings 6:19)

In addition in Joshua 8:
Joshua himself went in battle against the city of Ai, they pretended that they were being defeated and they retreated. They weren’t being defeated—it was a trap. The Israelites deceived them.

Please take note that God told Joshua to lay an ambush for the army at Ai. If you were to read the chapter, this ambush involved deception. In other words, God was telling Joshua to deceive their enemies as a part of the art of war.

However, if a certain spirit was telling Joshua to lie so as to cover up a sin and or his own embarrassment or shame about something, then that would be a wrong spirit who was trying to make Joshua break the 9th Commandment.

and that's the problem - the OT defines "good lies" and "bad lies" basically it's the principle of self-serving vs not. However the NT does not (I believe) give such allowances - it merely says that all liars go to hell, which means all those people you extolled would go to hell by the CS interpretation of the NT.

As for my point about the iphone 8: greed is on the list in Rev 21:8 that sends you to hell, which means if you have another phone but you're admiring the iphone 8 that you don't have (covetousness) - guess what, now you'll go to hell if you don't repent. A literal interpretation of Rev 21:8 says exactly that.

So to summarize the gist of my point: you've said quite clearly that certain sins send you to hell, eg. the Rev 21:8 list. If we examine what is in that list, tie it back to other verses like the Sermon on the Mount, and then extrapolate that into practical living - then we realize that most people would be in danger of going to hell constantly throughout the day. And I'm talking about well-meaning people, not deliberate sinners. For example:
1. wanting anything that you don't already have (greed)
2. being even the slightest bit angry with anyone (murder)
3. even accidentally looking at an indecently clad person on a magazine cover (sexual immorality. Even though you don't feel lust - exactly how can you tell where the line is?)
4. telling white lies like "everything is going to be okay" when you don't know whether that's true.
etc.

We have to know EXACTLY where that line is, because crossing it will send you to hell. The problem is, we don't know EXACTLY where that line is.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

 

[stuart lawrence]

As for the statement that essentially says that: "FEW people understand that we have to die to a law of righteousness" (as meaning "all law"):

Well, this is not true. Most people in the church here in America, Europe, and certain other countries believe in a form of Once Saved Always Saved. It is the popular wide gate path because this belief ultimately says you can "sin and still be saved" (on some level) (Which is wrong because God does not reward good for those who do evil. For God will render to every man according to His deeds; For God is not a respecter of persons. - See Romans 2:6-15).

FEW people are actually striving to follow Jesus today. Yet, Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it (Matthew 7:14).


...

I'm sure you wouldn't deliberately try and distort what I wrote. That would be breaking the law after all. I will assume you were a bit under the weather when you read the post

I said few understood Paul's message( total) and even fewer who come onto websites such as this.
For most( not all) who come onto these sites rely on the academic mind to learn, and not the only one who can lead into spiritual truth

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am trying to explore the truth of God's Word, please don't waste time trying to judge me or my motives. This is a forum: for discussing a topic - not each other. I have not made judgments on your character, and I would appreciate if you would refrain from making judgments on mine.



I am talking about anger, annoyance, irritation at someone. I am relating back to the sermon on the mount, when Jesus says being angry (wrongly) at someone is committing murder.



I agree with you. And that's the problem, love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself was all I felt I had to focus on. I felt that the sermon on the mount was focusing on the principle of a commandment, not the outward appearance. The problem is a CS interpretation of verses like Rev 21:8 takes that away. Instead of focusing on love, it forces one to at least be partly motivated by avoidance of hell.



absolutely not! The OT never says that telling a white lie ("you don't look fat" or "great!" when someone asks you whether you're having a nice day when you're not) will send you to hell, you are telling me that telling a white lie WILL send you to hell.

The NT takes OT laws to a whole new level. The sermon on the mount says it's not the outward act, but the inward thoughts. How is that not a much bigger burden if every little thought can send you to hell? Let's be honest with ourselves! Not one of us on this board has killed anybody, but I guarantee ALL of us are guilty of committing murder by the Sermon on the Mount standard. You're losing credibility with me by arguing otherwise.

Believing in OSAS does not make the Sermon on the Mount a burden - it makes the believer realize how God wants us to be and therefore inspires us to aspire to a higher level. Once you make the Sermon on the Mount as the blueprint for sending to hell, it turns it into a terrifying prospect instead.




and that's the problem - the OT defines "good lies" and "bad lies" basically it's the principle of self-serving vs not. However the NT does not (I believe) give such allowances - it merely says that all liars go to hell, which means all those people you extolled would go to hell by the CS interpretation of the NT.

As for my point about the iphone 8: greed is on the list in Rev 21:8 that sends you to hell, which means if you have another phone but you're admiring the iphone 8 that you don't have (covetousness) - guess what, now you'll go to hell if you don't repent. A literal interpretation of Rev 21:8 says exactly that.

So to summarize the gist of my point: you've said quite clearly that certain sins send you to hell, eg. the Rev 21:8 list. If we examine what is in that list, tie it back to other verses like the Sermon on the Mount, and then extrapolate that into practical living - then we realize that most people would be in danger of going to hell constantly throughout the day. And I'm talking about well-meaning people, not deliberate sinners. For example:
1. wanting anything that you don't already have (greed)
2. being even the slightest bit angry with anyone (murder)
3. even accidentally looking at an indecently clad person on a magazine cover (sexual immorality. Even though you don't feel lust - exactly how can you tell where the line is?)
4. telling white lies like "everything is going to be okay" when you don't know whether that's true.
etc.

We have to know EXACTLY where that line is, because crossing it will send you to hell. The problem is, we don't know EXACTLY where that line is.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

Well, I am only judging your inability to accept the solution to the problem.

I already given you the solution to your problem by Private Chat. For it is by Jesus and His Word that you can overcome sin. Jesus will change a person by their obedience to His Word whereby they will not so easily slip into sin as you suggest. There are many verses and passages that teach Sinless Perfectionism. The 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5). He that suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1). They that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

Oh, and by the way, I know the difference between sins unto death and sins not unto death in the Bible. Lying to a person by saying they are not fat when they are fat is wrong. A person can just say nothing if they don't want to hurt their feelings. Looking at a woman in lust even briefly on a magazine is still wrong. Can a person just add a miniscule amount of poison into a person's coffee whereby it does not kill them right away? Yes. But it would still be wrong because they are slowly killing that person over time. A person can repent of such sins. You are trying to justify sin with an OSAS belief that says that some of these sins are actually minor sins to God (But they are not according to His Word).

As for desiring an iphone 8: It can be an idol but that does not it has to be one. Just wanting to purchase an iphone does not mean one is rich or that one is seeking after riches. It is also not coveting, either. Coveting is desiring something that your neighbor has that you do not have because it is not possible for you to have it yet. It means, you want Rick's iphone and it does not mean you cannot work hard on your own to get your own iphone. It means you desire what they have instead of working hard for it yourself so as to get it on your own. If you have the ability to go out and buy it, and work hard to pay for it, then there is no issue. While you may think having an iphone 8 is nice, it should not be an idol where you think your life is not complete without it. It is merely a tool of communication; And it can be used for God's glory instead of for the devil's purposes. For a person can use their iphone to indulge in inappropriate content, send hateful (or hurtful) messages to others, and or watch videos with profanity in them. But this would be wrong because it would be breaking God's laws (i.e. sin).

The Bible says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?
In the OSAS belief, there is no fear of God.
Romans 3:18 says, "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
This is a part of the Condemnation by Paul.

But believe whatever you want to believe. You are not really interested in accepting the Conditional Salvation View because you are constantly arguing against it. We are done talking on this point. If you keep desiring to have an answer on how can we truly know what sins can truly condemn us and how can we overcome them, I will ignore you. I gave you many replies on these points. However, if you want to talk about Scripture in regards to Conditional Salvation, we can do that for a while (if you are interested). But please know that if we do and you keep fighting against the Word I give you, I will eventually move on at some point, as well.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you and may He open your eyes more to His Word.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, if you truly do not know what is sin in the Bible, ask God to show it to you within His Word (And He will show it to you). But again, you have to be willing to dedicate your life to Christ in all areas of your life and you have to be willing to lean on the side of the fence in obeying God in everything and not in disobeying Him. If not, then you will never know.



...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Also, if you truly do not know what is sin in the Bible, ask God to show it to you within His Word (And He will show it to you). But again, you have to be willing to dedicate your life to Christ in all areas of your life and you have to be willing to lean on the side of the fence in obeying God in everything and not in disobeying Him. If not, then you will never know.



...

Every christian knows what sin is for the law is written on their mind and placed on their heart.

If you have to read the bible to know what sin is, you are in big, big trouble

 

[Hillsage]

I am trying to explore the truth of God's Word, please don't waste time trying to judge me or my motives. This is a forum: for discussing a topic - not each other. I have not made judgments on your character, and I would appreciate if you would refrain from making judgments on mine.

I've avoided this thread assuming it would go like all others...no where. Both sides presenting the age old two '1/2 truth' positions, and no consensus at the end. But you've been here all through your OP, so I'm going to jump in, admitting that I haven't read but a couple of posts.

I am talking about anger, annoyance, irritation at someone. I am relating back to the sermon on the mount, when Jesus says being angry (wrongly) at someone is committing murder.

annoyance and irritation aren't sins IMO And anger isn't sin, even according to the NT.

EPH 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

And Jesus never said "anger" or "lust" was SIN, he simply pointed out that those temptations were in your heart would lead to the sins of "murder/adultery". But those 'temptations' are heart issues not a sin issues. And heart issues are transgressions, or temptations TO commit a sin. 'Jesus was tempted like we were in all things yet without sin'. So does that mean Jesus had 'anger', 'lust' too? I believe he did, but he never gave in to those temptations, or transgressions of the heart, and therefore He never sinned. But scripture does say that even Jesus "was numbered with the transgressors".

I agree with you. And that's the problem, love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself was all I felt I had to focus on. I felt that the sermon on the mount was focusing on the principle of a commandment, not the outward appearance. The problem is a CS interpretation of verses like Rev 21:8 takes that away. Instead of focusing on love, it forces one to at least be partly motivated by avoidance of hell.

I'm never motivated to avoid hell. I am motivated to not make it as an "overcomer", which is the whole point of the Revelation. The ones who are 'standing before the throne in white robes' (Rev 7:9) are saved, but they aren't overcomers. The overcomers are promised to be 'sitting ON the throne with Jesus'. (Rev 3:21)

The NT takes OT laws to a whole new level. The sermon on the mount says it's not the outward act, but the inward thoughts.

I'd say it does nothing with the OT laws, but it does take our accountability away from the lower 'don't sin goal' and raises the goal higher to the 'don't even transgress' level. What's 'in the heart doesn't defile a man, it's what comes out of the heart that defiles' us, WITH SIN.

How is that not a much bigger burden if every little thought can send you to hell? Let's be honest with ourselves! Not one of us on this board has killed anybody, but I guarantee ALL of us are guilty of committing murder by the Sermon on the Mount standard. You're losing credibility with me by arguing otherwise.

Hopefully I'm gaining credibility, or at least raising questions for you to ask in regard to what I'm saying.

Believing in OSAS does not make the Sermon on the Mount a burden - it makes the believer realize how God wants us to be and therefore inspires us to aspire to a higher level. Once you make the Sermon on the Mount as the blueprint for sending to hell, it turns it into a terrifying prospect instead.

As for my point about the iphone 8: greed is on the list in Rev 21:8 that sends you to hell, which means if you have another phone but you're admiring the iphone 8 that you don't have (covetousness) - guess what, now you'll go to hell if you don't repent. A literal interpretation of Rev 21:8 says exactly that.

I'd disagree. That verse literally says Death and HELL are cast into the lake of fire, which isn't hell. Some, me included, believe 'the lake' just might be GOD.

HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

This post is way longer than I like. Please try to be shorter than I was.
This is an elephant of a issue and one bite at a time works best for 'chewing'.

 

[supescritter]

Well, I am only judging your inability to accept the solution to the problem.

why judge me at all? Why not just discuss just the topic without feeling that I am just trying to trap you or argue with you? I am really wanting to know what you feel the Bible is saying. Remember - I come from an objective point of view. What you're writing is not necessarily the truth, it is an interpretation on a controversial theology that many people disagree with you about. Should I just accept fully what you wrote without any doubt or questions? Think about that - would you accept OSAS without asking questions? That's not reasonable.

I think your private post gives excellent tips on how to achieve what you're proposing, but there are gaps that are niggling at me that I must resolve before fully committing to a different theology. The Bible says to count the costs before building a tower.

Also, if you truly do not know what is sin in the Bible, ask God to show it to you within His Word (And He will show it to you). But again, you have to be willing to dedicate your life to Christ in all areas of your life and you have to be willing to lean on the side of the fence in obeying God in everything and not in disobeying Him. If not, then you will never know.

I think you're not giving this topic the gravity it deserves. I truly do believe the HS tells you what's wrong and what's not, but if we are to believe they now also send you to hell, then there better be a verse that says that. You make some distinctions about which is covetousness and what is not, but the NT does not make those same distinctions - only the OT does - if "greed" sends you to hell, we have to be absolutely sure what is greed and what is not from the "NT laws" (alone) that you say we must follow now.

And it's not fair to judge us (for hell) based on what the HS says to us - surely it's only fair to judge us based on the Biblical written word standard? And if so, where is it written that there are distinctions in greed or white lies in the NT? Judging us our conduct by the love standard (what we feel the HS is telling us) is a family based standard; judging us based on going to hell is a judicial standard and must therefore be backed up by a law of some kind written in the NT. If all the NT says is "greed" and "ALL lies" send you to hell, then that is the standard we are forced to accept. It's unfortunate that you don't think this is worth discussing, because now I have to find someone else to discuss this very important topic.

I am searching the truth about this, because it terrifies me (either not knowing where the line is, or forced to accept an absolute perfection standard of behavior that are several levels higher than the OT standard - eg. white lies) but now I must find someone else to love me as they love themselves and patient enough to teach me about arguably the MOST IMPORTANT implication of accepting CS theology.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

why judge me at all? Why not just discuss just the topic without feeling that I am just trying to trap you or argue with you? I am really wanting to know what you feel the Bible is saying. Remember - I come from an objective point of view. What you're writing is not necessarily the truth, it is an interpretation on a controversial theology that many people disagree with you about. Should I just accept fully what you wrote without any doubt or questions? Think about that - would you accept OSAS without asking questions? That's not reasonable.

I think your private post gives excellent tips on how to achieve what you're proposing, but there are gaps that are niggling at me that I must resolve before fully committing to a different theology. The Bible says to count the costs before building a tower.



I think you're not giving this topic the gravity it deserves. I truly do believe the HS tells you what's wrong and what's not, but if we are to believe they now also send you to hell, then there better be a verse that says that. You make some distinctions about which is covetousness and what is not, but the NT does not make those same distinctions - only the OT does - if "greed" sends you to hell, we have to be absolutely sure what is greed and what is not from the "NT laws" (alone) that you say we must follow now.

And it's not fair to judge us (for hell) based on what the HS says to us - surely it's only fair to judge us based on the Biblical written word standard? And if so, where is it written that there are distinctions in greed or white lies in the NT? Judging us our conduct by the love standard (what we feel the HS is telling us) is a family based standard; judging us based on going to hell is a judicial standard and must therefore be backed up by a law of some kind written in the NT. If all the NT says is "greed" and "ALL lies" send you to hell, then that is the standard we are forced to accept. It's unfortunate that you don't think this is worth discussing, because now I have to find someone else to discuss this very important topic.

I am searching the truth about this, because it terrifies me (either not knowing where the line is, or forced to accept an absolute perfection standard of behavior that are several levels higher than the OT standard - eg. white lies) but now I must find someone else to love me as they love themselves and patient enough to teach me about arguably the MOST IMPORTANT implication of accepting CS theology.

If you were truly terrified, then you would accept Conditional Security as taught in the Bible instead of trying to explain away what is clearly written in Scripture. You would seek to overcome sin by God's Word and you would not seek to entertain the belief that we can sin and still be saved (By having a mere belief alone on Jesus).

For example: God's Word says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Yet, somehow you believe this says something else?
Does not trembling suggest one is in fear?


...

 

[supescritter]

If you were truly terrified, then you would accept Conditional Security as taught in the Bible instead of trying to explain away what is clearly written in Scripture. You would seek to overcome sin by God's Word and you would not seek to entertain the belief that we can sin and still be saved (By having a mere belief alone on Jesus).

We waste time arguing about my motives - this is about the truth of the Bible and the arguments people have presented, not about me. Now I don't know whether you have experience in formal debate, but in debates you do not challenge people personally, you just stick to the arguments presented, but I asked you to refrain from talking about me personally but instead you doubled down and justified talking about me personally - please stop, especially if you believe in a strict interpretation of "love your neighbor".

For example: God's Word says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Yet, somehow you believe this says something else?
Does not trembling suggest one is in fear?
...

You can't send someone to hell for loosey goosey feelings, but that is what you're suggesting: that the HS alone will decide whether we go to hell irrespective of the NT Bible verses. I keep persisting in this topic because there are grave inconsistencies and gap in the theology you've presented so far.

1. You said that the OT doesn't apply to us any more, but everything in the NT is the new law that we must follow
2. You say that Rev 21:8 means that Christians go to hell for doing these things, and therefore based on #1 we must follow absolutely
3. You privately gave me a list of suggestions for following your way, which by the way I find reasonably acceptable - BUT contradict your strict interpretation of Rev 21:8
4. The standards of Rev 21:8 demand absolute perfection. No white lies, and the Bible is quite clear that not one of us can say we do not lie, and the NT gives absolutely NO exceptions about good and bad lies unlike the OT which clearly gives several examples of reasonable lies.
5. I find no proof in the NT that says that there are exceptions to lies or greed (unlike in the OT), and in fact the Sermon on the Mount as interpreted by you gives the strictest interpretation ever imagined. No longer is it about being greedy (for example), but the mere thought of being greedy will send you to hell according to the very arguments you proposed (about Matt 5-7). You can't want an iphone 8 - that is sin, because you already have a phone: that IS what Rev 21:8 says (greed) if we interpret it like you have argued - if you disagree with this, then prove it by showing a NT verse (no OT verses, because as you say, they don't apply to us, and as you point out the Matt 5-7 presents an even tougher standard) that elaborates "greed" or "lies".

To tell you the truth, the suggestions you gave in your private post does not present an extreme view of CS, I found it more in the middle - as you said yourself, it is more relational based. That's fine, but you cannot say that and then turn around and argue a strict "go to hell" interpretation that you've argued about Rev 21:8 among others. There is a contradiction.

Basically there are 3 positions about this controversial theology:
Position 1: OSAS
Position 2: You are saved as long as you remain in relationship with him (don't backslide) and repent of your sins (this is your position according to my understanding of your private post)
Position 3: Every little thing sends you to hell even after salvation (the problem is that you argued this #3 position in this thread, even though your suggestions for practically living a CS life in your private post suggests position #2).

My perspective is this: I think position #2 is "reasonable", and in fact I wrote earlier in this thread that that is actually my personal position, which is why I find your private post reasonable. However, you argue in this thread position #3, which I am trying to clarify.

If you really believed #2, then Rev 21:8 cannot mean as you've argued in this thread. If you really believed in position #3, then your suggestions in your private post don't go far enough because Rev 21:8 if we are honest with ourselves covers everything to such an extreme degree of perfection (because there are no exceptions) that you will not remember to repent of everything and in fact you won't even realize that you've sinned a lot of the time. Why? Because you can only repent of sins based on your understanding of the Bible, how can you repent of something that is based on something you didn't realize?

Depending on your "feelings" about your HS convictions is murky at best - there are plenty of Christians who go by their feelings alone - feelings are unreliable especially if you feel that sins will send you to hell, how can we preach to judge whether we've sinned based on our feelings? That's irresponsible. We can only teach/preach based on the written word. Therefore the implication of accepting a perfect no-exception interpretation of Rev 21:8 means that we WILL sin in ways that we didn't realize. You judge me for trying to find loopholes to sin, but I'm not doing that - I am taking your arguments to their natural conclusion: every one of us will sin without realizing it because there are no exceptions. We don't live in a black and white world, there are shades of grey - even in the OT - but according to you, we must be absolutely perfect (or realize where we've gone wrong in every little thing) or go to hell. Your relational lifestyle, I argue, is woefully insufficient from stopping you from going to hell according to what you've preached in this thread.

I'm not judging you, I'm trying to address the gap between your arguments in this thread and your lifestyle that you've suggested in the private post. Your lifestyle suggestions you've privately posted is not enough to meet the standard that you've preached in this thread which demands absolute perfection and where there really isn't room for a "relationship" type obedience.

If you've sinned and didn't realize it, according to you, you will be fine if you're in relationship with God (because the HS didn't convict you). I completely disagree that you're fine if your interpretation of Rev 21:8 is as you say. Sin is sin, therefore you go to hell if you don't repent, even if you don't realize it (#3 position). Are you really willing to bet your entire salvation based on whether you feel that you've sinned (that is: depending on the HS to convict you)? I'm not comfortable depending on feelings. I want to know whether I've sinned or not, especially if every sin in Rev 21:8 sends you to hell. And that's the problem - you live position #2, but you preached in this thread position #3.

Unlike most others in this thread who are trying to convince you to adopt another position, I am not doing that. I am quite happy to adopt your position #2 that you've suggested in your private post. But, your preaching in this thread strongly adopts position #3, and if position #3 is the truth then people who follow position #1 AND #2 will go to hell. There is a contradiction in your lifestyle vs your arguments in this thread.

 

[Aldebaran]

If you were truly terrified, then you would accept Conditional Security as taught in the Bible instead of trying to explain away what is clearly written in Scripture. You would seek to overcome sin by God's Word and you would not seek to entertain the belief that we can sin and still be saved (By having a mere belief alone on Jesus).

Because what you're saying directly contradicts things that are written in God's Word:

John 1:12-13
12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

 

[Hillsage]

Basically there are 3 positions about this controversial theology:

Controversial partly because those three positions don't address the three salvations of a triune (spirit, soul, body) man.

Position 1: OSAS

A position which is only tenable when applied to the spirit, which is the only thing 'saved' when one initially accepts and is born again in the spirit.

Position 2: You are saved as long as you remain in relationship with him (don't backslide) and repent of your sins (this is your position according to my understanding of your private post)

This position should say 'fellowship' and not 'relationship'. This position is muddied because it does not differentiate the difference between the salvation of the soul which is based upon obedience in 'fellowship', and the salvation of the spirit which is only based upon a 'born again' 'relationship'. You can no more lose who you are related to with your born again spirit, than you can lose a Father, Mother, Brother whom you are related to by blood. But fellowship is subsequent to relationship. And soul salvation is subsequent to spirit salvation.

Position 3: Every little thing sends you to hell even after salvation (the problem is that you argued this #3 position in this thread, even though your suggestions for practically living a CS life in your private post suggests position #2).

Everyone will undergo the final purgative fires of judgment even if they are Christian according to 1Cor 3. Even though their foundation is solid their soulish works may be good and bad. That which is bad must be purged, and can not be allowed in heaven.

1CO 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw --
13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss (of reward vs14), though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Spirit salvation determines going to heaven and soul salvation determines your rewards in heaven.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because what you're saying directly contradicts things that are written in God's Word:

John 1:12-13
12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Well, you have to read all of the Word of God and not pick and choose to focus a laser beam on only those select verses you prefer seeing, my friend.

Yes, it is true. The thief on the cross was obviously saved. Those who accept Christ on their death beds are saved. A person who lives out their faith can be initially saved by believing in Jesus as their Savior. But if they live out their faith, their life will show forth fruit that Jesus lives within them and that their faith is true.

How so? The Scriptures also say,

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do. The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Surely this is not a place in Heaven as some OSAS proponents believe.

Here is another piece of Scripture. It says,

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).

Here we see that Jesus will send forth His angels to gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (sin) and or who do iniquity (intense sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire. Oh and there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And there is even more Scripture.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) we learn that when the son returned home from going prodigal and was willing to repent, his father said he was dead and he is now alive again. The father said this two times. This Parable was speaking in spiritual terms. In other words, the son was spiritually dead when he was prodigal and living in sin and he was spiritually alive again when he came home. In fact, this Parable has two meanings. One meaning is for the Jews and the other is for all of mankind. The message for all of us is that we were all saved as babies automatically by Christ’s sacrifice and then when we grew up and fell away into sin (i.e. we went prodigal) we have the opportunity to come back home to the father so as to be “alive again” as the father says (thru repentance). But the lesson in this is that sin is what separates a person from God and they can come back home to Him thru repentance.


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[Hillsage]

Exodus 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,...

I've noticed that those who don't understand the salvation of a triune spirit, soul, body man, also don't understand the definitions of iniquities, transgressions, sins either.

And has anybody ever thought that the prodigal son lost his 'Father Son relationship' with his Father while he was gone, or did you always think it was their ' soulmate fellowship' OF a Father and Son, which the Father considered as dead?