Ol' Granny & Johnny

Utah Blaine

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Where do you go when you die? Some believe that you are wisk off to some heavenly place if you’ve been good, a bad place if you’ve been bad. Some folk say there is a third place for the good but not quite good enough. And then there are people that believe that when you die you die. There are some that think they will come back in the form of a cow or maybe a rat. Some think that if they are really, really good, and take out a bunch of people with them, they will wake up with a harem of dancing girls to fulfill their wildest fantasy. Lots of people in this world and almost as many beliefs as to the outcome of their death. Just what does the Bible say about dieing?

King Solomon was a man who lived somewhere around the tenth century B.C. In his time he was considered, and to some still is, the wisest man in the world. During his lifetime he had a real big harem but he believed that when you die you die. In Ecclesiastes, the book Solomon is strongly suggested to have written, he says in chapter 9 verse 5 says
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten". If you back up to chapter 3 and read verse 19-21 you see starting in 19, "For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust". Now you say, what about the next verse?" OK, what does it say? 21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth? Well, who knows? Who came back and told you? No need for feed back on that, it’s pretty clear. Besides, more on that later.

In the Bible we are given a promise. We are told that if we keep Gods laws and commandments, follow His Word, we will be given everlasting life with Him in His Kingdom. He has promised us that. We can take it to the bank. In Hebrews 9 the writer tells us we have been appointed to die once, this is found in verse 27:
"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" This is our old friend Paul saying this, not me. When we die it’s like sleep. Have you ever been dog tired and gone to sleep and not dreamed? Just woke up tired and wondering where the time went. This dreamless type of sleep is referred to many times in the Bible. Jesus used the word sleep Himself. In the book of John, chapter 11, starting in verse 11 we read: This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." 12 The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead". If you have a red letter Bible you will see that Jesus said this, it’s in red. There are other places in the Bible where sleep is used for dead or death. It’s interesting to note that nowhere does Lazarus ask if he can go back to heaven. He is right back to manual labor earth. What a bummer compared to heaven! Yep, when you die it’s just like it was before you were born, just nothin’.

Earlier I mentioned a promise. What promise would that be? Glad you ask. In the book of Hebrews, a book whose authorship is disputed amongst scholars, we find several people listed who had died and not received the promise. A few of the names like David, Samuel and Samson you would expect to see in heaven wouldn’t you? That is if you believe that when you die you go to heaven. That is if you are in Gods favor at the time of your demise, right? Lets go to Hebrews 11 and start in verse 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. Did you see it? They are all dead people who did not receive what was promised. Don’t forget this was written after Christ’s resurrection and they still hadn’t received the promise yet. In verse 40 it’s referenced where they haven’t been resurrected to eternal life before us! But why not?

In Pauls 1st letter to the Corinthians in chapter 15 verse 20 it says "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.(there’s that word asleep again) 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. Now skipping to verse 51 we see: "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep (again), but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" Now do you get it?

I wonder what the second death the Bible talks about is? In Revelation 2 verse 11 we are told: ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’ The second death, what second death? In Revelation 21 verse 8 it says: "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Here we have it again, the second death. Let’s back up to Revelation 20 verse 14 where it says: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Let’s do this one at a different time!

Just think of this: your parents, family members and friends are in heaven where there is no sin. They are talking of how wonderful it wil be for the rest of the family to be together at last in heaven. All of them up there lookin’ down and seeing every little detail of your life? Yes every little thing, good or bad. You hear people everyday say; "well I know so-n-so is up there watching over me". Just like Santa Clause they know if you been nasty or nice. Isn’t that a relief? Ol’ Granny is watching Johnny as he rapes and murders his girlfriend down here on planet earth. That’s heaven aint it? No more pain or suffering up there unless you’re ol' granny with a Johnny down here.

No matter how you twist scripture there is no place that says you go to heaven when you die. You will never see the words immortal and soul used together anywhere in the pages of your bible.


"Scripture taken from the NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE®, Copyright © 1960,1962,1963,1968,1971,1972,1973,1975,1977,1995 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission."
 

Der Alte

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. . . I wonder what the second death the Bible talks about is? In Revelation 2 verse 11 we are told: ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’ The second death, what second death? In Revelation 21 verse 8 it says: "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Here we have it again, the second death. Let’s back up to Revelation 20 verse 14 where it says: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Let’s do this one at a different time!

There are four references to the second death in Revelation.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Only the second two references require discussion. "Death and hell are cast into the LOF This is the second death." Death is the point in time cessation of life. Death is not alive it cannot die a first death or a second death. It has no physical quality and cannot be thrown anywhere. Hell is either the place of eternal punishment or the grave, as a place it could be thrown into the LOF but the grave or hell is not alive and cannot die the first time or a second time.

This can be resolved with scripture.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

These two living beings called death and hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill is ended. We know this does not refer to the death that all living things will face, because these two being only have power over 1/4 of the earth.

That leaves Rev 21:8 "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." They are all thrown into the LOF which is the second death.

None of these verses say that those thrown into the LOF die. The lake of fire is the second death, the second death is the lake of fire. Being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death. Three lving beings are thrown into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. One of those beings is a human, the false prophet.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Just think of this: your parents, family members and friends are in heaven where there is no sin. They are talking of how wonderful it wil be for the rest of the family to be together at last in heaven. All of them up there lookin’ down and seeing every little detail of your life? Yes every little thing, good or bad. You hear people everyday say; "well I know so-n-so is up there watching over me". Just like Santa Clause they know if you been nasty or nice. Isn’t that a relief? Ol’ Granny is watching Johnny as he rapes and murders his girlfriend down here on planet earth. That’s heaven aint it? No more pain or suffering up there unless you’re ol' granny with a Johnny down here.
No matter how you twist scripture there is no place that says you go to heaven when you die. You will never see the words immortal and soul used together anywhere in the pages of your bible.

I am not aware of any scripture which states that everyone who goes to be with the Lord can watch anything that happens on earth, or any other place.

What happens to the righteous at death? According to Luke 16:22 the beggar was carried by angels to Abrahams' bosom. The Jews believed that the righteous dead sit in the place of honor with Abraham, i.e. the place immediately in front of him at the heavenly feast. Paul seemed to believe that at death he would immediately go to be with the Lord.

Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:​
 
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Utah Blaine

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Your argument is with the bible. I stated what the bible says. Under close examination what you have quoted says the same thing. Go and look up these two words, one Greek aionios and the Hebrew equivalent olam.
Your view of the metaphysically indestructible soul goes back to Plato and is shared by Augustine, Aquinas and Calvin. The Greek doctrin of the immortality of the soul is a good example of the Hellenization of Christian doctrine.
My point exactly. No one sees or hears anything in heaven. They’re not in heaven but in the grave waiting to be resurrected.
 
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Der Alte

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Your argument is with the bible. I stated what the bible says. Under close examination what you have quoted says the same thing. Go and look up these two words, one Greek aionios and the Hebrew equivalent olam.
Your view of the metaphysically indestructible soul goes back to Plato and is shared by Augustine, Aquinas and Calvin. The Greek doctrin of the immortality of the soul is a good example of the Hellenization of Christian doctrine.
My point exactly. No one sees or hears anything in heaven. They’re not in heaven but in the grave waiting to be resurrected.

If you are talking to me I suggest you read my post again. My argument is with the false teachings you are presenting. I quoted scripture, that you ignored in your first post and you are ignoring again. Here are the verses I quoted, Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8, 6:8, Philippians 1:23 and I referred to Luke 16:22. Too bad scripture does not support your argument.

I have looked up the Greek ainios and it does in fact mean eternal, unending, everlasting, etc. See my 2 back to back posts at this link [post=63469310]Greek sources-[size=+1]αιον[/size]/aion def.[/post]
 
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Utah Blaine

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Aionios - Fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorra is not still burning today is it? The same word is used in Matt.3:12, and many many places. Depending on how it is used in the Greek it has reference to the action not the process.

Luke 16:22 - Who do you think you are fooling? You try and use a parable to prove bible doctrine? You have to be kidding!

Phil. 1:23 -
None of the Apostles believed in an immortal soul. Paul knew that when he died his next conscience moment would be at his resurrection unto Christ. The bible is adamant about that in many places. Again, it’s your preconceived Platonic thought at work.

As far as all your Revelation stuff, didn’t anyone ever warn you of the dangers in using an apocalyptic book loaded with allegory and symbols, to establish doctrine? Come on man. My piece wasn’t written for you anyway. It’s for those seeking the truth. Not someone confined in their own ….never mind dude.

False teachings? I’ll say it again, your argument is with the Bible not me!
 
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Der Alte

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Aionios - Fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorra is not still burning today is it? The same word is used in Matt.3:12, and many many places. Depending on how it is used in the Greek it has reference to the action not the process.


Double talk. Did you read my two posts? If not, don't try to quote 2-3 out-of-context verses and think you are proving anything to anyone.

Luke 16:22 - Who do you think you are fooling? You try and use a parable to prove bible doctrine? You have to be kidding!

How convenient when scripture as written proves your doctrine false you hide behind a scam, just call it a parable. Parables use common, every day experiences to clarify or illustrate Biblical truths. "The kingdom of heaven is like unto..." What is the common, every day experience? And what is the Biblical truth? What about the story of Lazarus and the rich man is like the kingdom of heaven? Google it and you will see dozens of explanations what the so-called "parable" is supposed to mean. What is your version?

None of the Apostles believed in an immortal soul. Paul knew that when he died his next conscience moment would be at his resurrection unto Christ. The bible is adamant about that in many places. Again, it’s your preconceived Platonic thought at work.

Paul said nothing about resurrection. Don't tell me what the Bible is supposed to be adamant about in many places unless you quote scripture. I'm not interested in someone's unsuppoprted opinion.

As far as all your Revelation stuff, didn’t anyone ever warn you of the dangers in using an apocalyptic book loaded with allegory and symbols, to establish doctrine? Come on man. My piece wasn’t written for you anyway. It’s for those seeking the truth. Not someone confined in their own ….never mind dude.

I like that, you quote Revelation then when I show how you misinterpreted it you give me grief. If you don't want the truth don't misquote scripture. You didn't write any of that stuff. You copy/pasted it from some anonymous website.

false teachings? I’ll say it again, your argument is with the Bible not me!

And I'll say it again I quoted scripture. If you have a beef it is with God not me. I believe scripture as it is written. When scripture proves you wrong you just alakazam change it into figurative, a parable or some such nonsense. Here is more scripture which proves you wrong.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9)
Hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]שאול][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18)
Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30)
There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
 
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Utah Blaine

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It’s only double talk to you. Every thing you just quoted refers to people in the grave. Their speaking metaphorically.

Your easy, your making my point for me. Read your quotes! Take a deep breath and read them. Now go back to Isaiah 14:4 see where it says \"take up this taunt…..\". Taunt is better translated proverb. It’s not good to take out of context.

Your Ezekiel quotes don’t compute. What are you trying to say?

Why don’t you use Rev. 6:9-11 LOL or 1 Samuel 28:11
 
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Der Alte

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It’s only double talk to you. Every thing you just quoted refers to people in the grave. Their speaking metaphorically.

As I said, like all unscriptural latter theological systems whenever scripture as written contradicts what you have chosen to believe, instead of correcting your false belief you try to correct scripture. You don't like what scripture says you blow it off as SPAM-Fig. Scripture is symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal.

Your easy, your making my point for me. Read your quotes! Take a deep breath and read them. Now go back to Isaiah 14:4 see where it says \"take up this taunt…..\". Taunt is better translated proverb. It’s not good to take out of context.

I have studied Hebrew, how much Biblical Hebrew have you had? Do you know the difference between a hithpael and a hatpin? Do you know how to locate a Hebrew verb? Do you even know what that means? I guess you know more than the Hebrew scholars who translated the 1906 Jewish Publication Society OT.

JPS Isa 14:4 that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say: How hath the oppressor ceased! the exactress of gold ceased!​

This is history. God is warning the king of Babylon what is going to happen to him. Why would God not use literal language to warn someone? "That's alright king nebuchadnezzar, you don't have to worry this is all metaphorical."

The ancient Jews certainly understood Isaiah 14:9 to be literal.

Jewish Encyclopedia - Gehenna

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA

Your Ezekiel quotes don’t compute. What are you trying to say?

Of course they don't compute, they contradict your assumptions/presuppositions. I explained them. Very simply God speaking sends a prophetic warning to the king of Egypt.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18)
Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell[[size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::​

God speaking to, through, Ezekiel tells Pharaoh, the strong among the mighty, who have been killed by the sword, shall speak to Pharaoh out of hell. Wait I know this is only metaphorical.

[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30)
There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Pharaoh killed by the sword, along with his army, will see all the dead in Sheol and be comforted.

Why don’t you use Rev. 6:9-11 LOL or 1 Samuel 28:11

If you think some scripture is relevant, quote it and say how. Nothing you could possibly quote contradicts the scripture I have posted.
 
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Utah Blaine

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No, I don’t know what a hithpael is. I looked it up and came up with something to do with verbs. It read : In modern Hebrew verbs are conjugated to reflect their tense mood, as well as to agree with their subjects in gender, number, and person. Each verb has an inherent voice, though a verb in one voice typically has counterparts in other voices. I thank you for enlightening me, thanks.

I have not rewritten any scripture you know that. It’s not necessary for me to have a degree in ancient Hebrew to read it (the Bible). I am not saying that you rewrite scripture. I am saying that you are reading a lot into them (scriptures) that isn’t there. You are part of the over 26,000 Christian religions that accept the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. I understand that. I give you my word that we will find out who is right.

Let me ask you a question. Let’s say that you (or someone) lives to be 95 years old and dies. This person has been a bad person for most of their lives. Oh sure, there were times when they were nice to their dog and helped a granny across the street. They never gave God or Jesus a thought. They are hit by a bus and are killed and go to hell. They are in hell burning like a chicken on a spit for all eternity, for only 95 years of sin (or what ever gets you to hell in your religion). Is this your loving God who wants all to come to repentance, confess their sins on Jesus and be with him in His Kingdom? The Jesus who healed the sick and raised the dead (I assume they were roused out of heaven and brought back). All the poor and downtrodden, those who have never known the name Jesus. All eternity man, all eternity!

Your belief that you have an immortal soul means that when Jesus returns there is no sense in Him giving you eternal life because you already have it. You have a mixture of mortal and immortal. Your Bible doesn’t support that.

There is no such thing as your immortal soul. For something that important it should say immortal soul. Your religion rests on it. John Cooper’s book Body, Soul, and Life Everlasting states: \"If what they (his opponents) are saying is true, then two disturbing conclusions immediately follow. \"First, a doctrine affirmed by most of the Christian church since its beginning is false. A second consequence is personal and existential – what millions of Christians believe will happen when they die is also a delusion.\" I disagree with his statement \"since its beginning\". Christ did not teach immortal soul, it came into His church later. It was most likely one of the heresies creeping into the church that the disciples warned against.

Show me the scripture that says \'immortal soul\". Don\'t beat around the bush in Ezek. and Eze. Show me out right! Where?

Utah Blaine
 
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Der Alte

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No, I don’t know what a hithpael is. I looked it up and came up with something to do with verbs. It read : In modern Hebrew verbs are conjugated to reflect their tense mood, as well as to agree with their subjects in gender, number, and person. Each verb has an inherent voice, though a verb in one voice typically has counterparts in other voices.I thank you for enlightening me, thanks.

My point is people who cannot read the original languages have no basis to be trying to tell others "what the Bible really means."

I have not rewritten any scripture you know that. It’s not necessary for me to have a degree in ancient Hebrew to read it (the Bible). I am not saying that you rewrite scripture.

Are you saying that you can read Hebrew? I didn't say you rewrite scripture. I said when scripture, as written, contradicts what you have chosen to believe you blow it off as figurative, etc. Just as you did Luke 16:19-31, Isa 14:9.

I am saying that you are reading a lot into them (scriptures) that isn’t there.

How can I possibly do that when I quote scripture I read it exactly as written. For example when Luke says the rich man was in hades being tormented, I understand it exactly as written. Are you aware that every early church father who quotes this passages considers it to be factual not figurative? The ancient Jews believed that Isa 14:9 was factual as well.

I say you are part of the over 26,000 Christian religions that accept the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. I understand that. I give you my word that we will find out who is right.

No problemo. Let me know when you understand the truth.

Let me ask you a question. Let’s say that you (or someone) lives to be 95 years old and dies. This person has been a bad person for most of their lives. Oh sure, there were times when they were nice to their dog and helped a granny across the street. They never gave God or Jesus a thought. They are hit by a bus and are killed and go to hell. They are in hell burning like a chicken on a spit for all eternity, for only 95 years of sin (or what ever gets you to hell in your religion). Is this your loving God who wants all to come to repentance, confess their sins on Jesus and be with him in His Kingdom? The Jesus who healed the sick and raised the dead (I assume they were roused out of heaven and brought back). All the poor and downtrodden, those who have never known the name Jesus. All eternity man, all eternity!

God thought of that already. We are held responsible for what we know, not what we don't know.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Your belief that you have an immortal soul means that when Jesus returns there is no sense in Him giving you eternal life because you already have it. You have a mixture of mortal and immortal. Your Bible doesn’t support that.

I have quoted three passages of scripture which show the dead having some sort of conscious awareness in hades/sheol. There are more.

There is no such thing as your immortal soul. For something that important it should say immortal soul. Your religion rests on it. John Cooper’s book Body, Soul, and Life Everlasting states: \"If what they (his opponents) are saying is true, then two disturbing conclusions immediately follow. \"First, a doctrine affirmed by most of the Christian church since its beginning is false. A second consequence is personal and existential – what millions of Christians believe will happen when they die is also a delusion.\" I disagree with his statement \"since its beginning\". Christ did not teach immortal soul, it came into His church later. It was most likely one of the heresies creeping into the church that the disciples warned against.

Thank you for your opinion. When, where and how did this heresy creep in? Can you point to a specific place, person or group responsible? Jesus taught Luke 16:19-31, immediately after death one man was being tormented in hades, the other was being comforted by Abraham. Once again every early church father who quotes this passage considers it to be factual, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexander, Tertullian, Cyprian, Methodius..

Show me the scripture that says \'immortal soul\". Don\'t beat around the bush in Ezek. and Eze. Show me out right! Where?

Utah Blaine

I have shown you scripture which shows the dead in hades/sheol having conscious awareness, that contradicts your assumptions/presuppositions. Show me a scripture which specifically says the soul is not immortal? Don't beat around the bush.
 
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Utah Blaine

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Where do you go when you die? Some believe that you are wisk off to some heavenly place if you’ve been good, a bad place if you’ve been bad. Some folk say there is a third place for the good but not quite good enough. And then there are people that believe that when you die you die. There are some that think they will come back in the form of a cow or maybe a rat. Some think that if they are really, really good, and take out a bunch of people with them, they will wake up with a harem of dancing girls to fulfill their wildest fantasy. Lots of people in this world and almost as many beliefs as to the outcome of their death. Just what does the Bible say about dieing?

King Solomon was a man who lived somewhere around the tenth century B.C. In his time he was considered, and to some still is, the wisest man in the world. During his lifetime he had a real big harem but he believed that when you die you die. In Ecclesiastes, the book Solomon is strongly suggested to have written, he says in chapter 9 verse 5 says
[FONT=\"Times]\"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten\".[/FONT]If you back up to chapter 3 and read verse 19-21 you see starting in [FONT=\"Times]19[/FONT][FONT=\"Times], \"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust\".[/FONT] Now you say, what about the next verse?\" OK, what does it say?[FONT=\"Times]21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?[/FONT]Well, who knows? Who came back and told you? No need for feed back on that, it’s pretty clear. Besides, more on that later.

In the Bible we are given a promise. We are told that if we keep Gods laws and commandments, follow His Word, we will be given everlasting life with Him in His Kingdom. He has promised us that. We can take it to the bank. In Hebrews 9 the writer tells us we have been appointed to die once, this is found in verse 27:
[FONT=\"Times]\"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment\"[/FONT]This is our old friend Paul saying this, not me. When we die it’s like sleep. Have you ever been dog tired and gone to sleep and not dreamed? Just woke up tired and wondering where the time went. This dreamless type of sleep is referred to many times in the Bible. Jesus used the word sleep Himself. In the book of John, chapter 11, starting in verse 11 we read: [FONT=\"Times]This He said, and after that He *said to them, \"Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.\"[/FONT][FONT=\"Times]12 The disciples then said to Him, \"Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.\" 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, \"Lazarus is dead\"[/FONT]. If you have a red letter Bible you will see that Jesus said this, it’s in red. There are other places in the Bible where sleep is used for dead or death. It’s interesting to note that nowhere does Lazarus ask if he can go back to heaven. He is right back to manual labor earth. What a bummer compared to heaven! Yep, when you die it’s just like it was before you were born, just nothin’.

Earlier I mentioned a promise. What promise would that be? Glad you ask. In the book of Hebrews, a book whose authorship is disputed amongst scholars, we find several people listed who had died and not received the promise. A few of the names like David, Samuel and Samson you would expect to see in heaven wouldn’t you? That is if you believe that when you die you go to heaven. That is if you are in Gods favor at the time of your demise, right? Lets go to Hebrews 11 and start in verse [FONT=\"Times]38[/FONT][FONT=\"Times] (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. [/FONT]Did you see it? They are all dead people who did not receive what was promised. Don’t forget this was written after Christ’s resurrection and they still hadn’t received the promise yet. In verse 40 it’s referenced where they haven’t been resurrected to eternal life before us! But why not?

In Pauls 1st letter to the Corinthians in chapter 15 verse 20 it says [FONT=\"Times]\"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.[/FONT](there’s that word asleep again)[FONT=\"Times]21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. [/FONT]Now skipping to verse 51 we see:[FONT=\"Times] \"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep [/FONT](again)[FONT=\"Times], but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, \"Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?\" [/FONT]Now do you get it?

I wonder what the second death the Bible talks about is? In Revelation 2 verse 11 we are told: ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’ The second death, what second death? In Revelation 21 verse 8 it says: \"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.\" Here we have it again, the second death. Let’s back up to Revelation 20 verse 14 where it says: \"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Let’s do this one at a different time!

Just think of this: your parents, family members and friends are in heaven where there is no sin. They are talking of how wonderful it wil be for the rest of the family to be together at last in heaven. All of them up there lookin’ down and seeing every little detail of your life? Yes every little thing, good or bad. You hear people everyday say; \"well I know so-n-so is up there watching over me\". Just like Santa Clause they know if you been nasty or nice. Isn’t that a relief? Ol’ Granny is watching Johnny as he rapes and murders his girlfriend down here on planet earth. That’s heaven aint it? No more pain or suffering up there unless you’re ol\' granny with a Johnny down here.

No matter how you twist scripture there is no place that says you go to heaven when you die. You will never see the words immortal and soul used together anywhere in the pages of your bible.


\"Scripture taken from the NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE®, Copyright © 1960,1962,1963,1968,1971,1972,1973,1975,1977,1995 by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission.\"

 
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Utah Blaine

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No, I don’t know what a hithpael is. I looked it up and came up with something to do with verbs. It read : In modern Hebrew verbs are conjugated to reflect their tense mood, as well as to agree with their subjects in gender, number, and person. Each verb has an inherent voice, though a verb in one voice typically has counterparts in other voices.I thank you for enlightening me, thanks.​
I was making a joke on you. Check out Romans 16:25. - the mystery which was kept secret \"for long ages\" is your aionios. Check out 1 Kings 8:13. The ritual of tending to the light in the tabernacle was to be \"a statute for ever\" Exodus 27:21- all the sacrifices and circumcisions were said to last \"forever\". The word Hebrew word olam is the equivalent of aionios . You want more? I got more! This word can be used to mean eternal or everlasting, but also used in reference to a limited span of time and you know it. If you are the smart guy you say you are.
My point is people who cannot read the original languages have no basis to be trying to tell others \"what the Bible really means.\"
Explain yourself! Are you saying that everyone but a few elite’s are the only ones that should be allowed to read the Bible? We should defer to these elite and take their word for what it says. That is what the Catholics and a few others think. Are you saying the same thing? You are ain’t you!

.​
Are you saying that you can read Hebrew? I didn\'t say you rewrite scripture. I said when scripture, as written, contradicts what you have chosen to believe you blow it off as figurative, etc. Just as you did Luke 16:19-31,
There isn’t a serious Bible scholar around that doesn’t recognize this as a parable Isa 14:9. Back up to verse 4 dude and don’t take it out of context. It tells you right there it is a proverb or parable. It is translated into English as the word taunt in the NASBible. A pithy maxim, usually of metaphorical nature; hence, a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse). Sir, I think you are a fraud.
 
.

I am saying that you are reading a lot into them (scriptures) that isn’t there.​
How can I possibly do that when I quote scripture I read it exactly as written. You interpret the bible instead of letting the Bible interpret its self. For example when Luke says the rich man was in hades being tormented, I understand it exactly as written. Are you aware that every early church father who quotes this passages considers it to be factual not figurative? An assumption on your part that is way out of line. The ancient Jews believed that Isa 14:9 was factual as well. No they don’t. I guess the dead ancient Jews are talking to you now. That’s rich. Like others you start with a conclusion to support your conclusion.

No problemo. Let me know when you understand the truth. I understand it now.

God thought of that already. We are held responsible for what we know, not what we don\'t know. You avoid my question. It’s not becoming of you.

<B>
Rom 4:15</B> Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​
Your belief that you have an immortal soul means that when Jesus returns there is no sense in Him giving you eternal life because you already have it. You have a mixture of mortal and immortal. Your Bible doesn&#8217;t support that.​
I have quoted three passages of scripture which show the dead having some sort of conscious awareness in hades/sheol. There are more. You and Van Empi quote scripture real good You just don&#8217;t understand it. That&#8217;s ok I understand.

There is no such thing as your immortal soul. For something that important it should say immortal soul. Your religion rests on it. John Cooper&#8217;s book Body, Soul, and Life Everlasting states: \"If what they (his opponents) are saying is true, then two disturbing conclusions immediately follow. \"First, a doctrine affirmed by most of the Christian church since its beginning is false. A second consequence is personal and existential &#8211; what millions of Christians believe will happen when they die is also a delusion.\" I disagree with his statement \"since its beginning\". Christ did not teach immortal soul, it came into His church later. It was most likely one of the heresies creeping into the church that the disciples warned against.​
Thank you for your opinion. When, where and how did this heresy creep in? Can you point to a specific place, person or group responsible? Jesus taught Luke 16:19-31, immediately after death one man was being tormented in hades, the other was being comforted by Abraham. You are really showing your smarts coming back to this parable. Once again every early church father who quotes this passage considers it to be factual, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexander, Tertullian, Cyprian, Methodius.. I hope everyone who might read this looks these guys up. You are incredible.

Titus Flavius Clemens - As his three major works demonstrate, Clement was influenced by Hellenistic philosophy to a greater extent than any other Christian thinker of his time, and in particular by Plato and the Stoics. His secret works, which exist only in fragments, suggest that he was also familiar with pre-Christian Jewish esotericism and Gnosticism. The guy was a quack.
Quintus Septimius Florens
Tertullian - He wrote his trinitarian formula after becoming a Montanist. However, unlike many Church fathers, he was never canonized by the Catholic Church, as several of his later teachings directly contradicted the actions and teachings of the apostles. Get that, he contradicted the apostles. Every one should go to Wikipedia and check these gods of early teachings of yours out. I did lol! Go and check out the rest. Please before you read anymore of this tower of wisdom&#8217;s posts.
&#12288;
I have shown you scripture which shows the dead in hades/sheol having conscious awareness, that contradicts your assumptions/presuppositions. Show me a scripture which specifically says the soul is not immortal? Don\'t beat around the bush. Oh, I don&#8217;t know. How about everything I have already quoted. Next year in Houston, TX. There will be a meeting of scholars to reevaluate the belief of an eternal hell. The title of the seminar (if it can be called that) is \"Rethinking Hell\". You see most scholars reject you theories of the Bible. I know you don&#8217;t believe that but they do.

SHOO-FLY
 
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Der Alte

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I was making a joke on you. Check out Romans 16:25. - the mystery which was kept secret \"for long ages\" is your aionios. Check out 1 Kings 8:13. The ritual of tending to the light in the tabernacle was to be \"a statute for ever\" Exodus 27:21- all the sacrifices and circumcisions were said to last \"forever\". The word Hebrew word olam is the equivalent of aionios . You want more? I got more! This word can be used to mean eternal or everlasting, but also used in reference to a limited span of time and you know it. If you are the smart guy you say you are.

Have you bothered to read the two posts I linked to where I quoted from nine Greek language sources? Yet I’m supposed to just believe everything you say, while you ignore or ridicule everything I say? I am fully aware of the range of meanings for aionios and other Greek words. You would know that if you had bothered to read my posts. FYI the statute in Ex 27:21 has never been revoked by God.

Explain yourself! Are you saying that everyone but a few elite’s are the only ones that should be allowed to read the Bible? We should defer to these elite and take their word for what it says. That is what the Catholics and a few others think. Are you saying the same thing? You are ain’t you!

If my writing is too complicated for you let me know and I will say it with simpler words. I did not say anything like this. Try reading my post again and respond to it with a little integrity. Would you like for me to esplain the meaning of integrity?

There isn’t a serious Bible scholar around that doesn’t recognize this as a parable Isa 14:9. Back up to verse 4 dude and don’t take it out of context. It tells you right there it is a proverb or parable. It is translated into English as the word taunt in the NASBible. A pithy maxim, usually of metaphorical nature; hence, a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse). Sir, I think you are a fraud.

Did you happen to see where I quoted from the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia and the 1906 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] OT? Both were published by Jewish scholars. The Jews did not consider Isa 14:9 to be a parable.

You interpret the bible instead of letting the Bible interpret its self.

Meaningless accusation without referencing what you are talking about. Here let the Bible interpret this for you.

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An assumption on your part that is way out of line. The ancient Jews believed that Isa 14:9 was factual as well. No they don’t. I guess the dead ancient Jews are talking to you now. That’s rich. Like others you start with a conclusion to support your conclusion.

Yes dead Jews are talking to me through the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia and the 1906 JPS, both of which I quoted. I have found it to be very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. Try actually reading my posts.

You avoid my question. It’s not becoming of you.

I answered you question with scripture and an explanation.

Titus Flavius Clemens . . .Quintus Septimius FlorensTertullian - . . . . Every one should go to Wikipedia and check these gods of early teachings of yours out. I did lol! Go and check out the rest. Please before you read anymore of this tower of wisdom’s posts.

Try reading actual scholars. Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbling on a public facility wall. Every article has multiple [Edit] links. Anybody can change anything, as anytime without review or controls. The LOL is on you if you believe that stuff.

Oh, I don’t know. How about everything I have already quoted. Next year in Houston, TX. There will be a meeting of scholars to reevaluate the belief of an eternal hell. The title of the seminar (if it can be called that) is \"Rethinking Hell\". You see most scholars reject you theories of the Bible. I know you don’t believe that but they do.

Right! I remember another seminar a few years ago called "The Jesus Seminar" the people, I won't dignify them by calling the scholars, at that seminar wanted to throw out almost everything about Jesus. “Most scholars” that is a logical fallacy, appeal to anonymous popularity.
 
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