Official SDA website: "Satan will bear the sins of the righteous"

[tall73]

This thread will be testing by Scripture this Seventh-day Adventist teaching that Satan will bear the sins of the righteous.

This teaching is succinctly stated in the Adventist.org website article "What Adventists Believe About Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary" elaborating on Fundamental Belief #24. This is the official site of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

What Adventists Believe About Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary - Adventist.org

Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us here on earth. Learn more about what He is doing now so that when He comes back, we can be sure His judgments are made in love.

www.adventist.org

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In the earthly Day of Atonement service, there was a scapegoat (Leviticus 16). This animal symbolically received the sins from the sanctuary and carried them into the wilderness.

In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.
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More details on this teaching are presented by Ellen White, who's writings Adventists believe are inspired:

Great Controversy.

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.


Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Great Controversy

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

Spiritual Gifts Volume 1:

They must prevent all they could from receiving salvation purchased for them by Jesus. By so doing Satan could still work against the government of God. Also it would be for his own interest to keep from Jesus all he could. For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and overcome, at last will be rolled back upon the originator of sin, the Devil, and he will have to bear their sins, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will bear their own sins.

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

1LtMs, Ms 15, 1850, par. 8

Then I saw that Jesus’ work in the sanctuary was almost finished, almost finished, and after His work there is finished He will come to the door of the tabernacle, or door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the scape goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues come upon the wicked, and they do not come until Jesus puts on the garments of vengeance and takes His seat upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling the scape goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that bears him away. If he should effect his escape Israel would be destroyed (or slain). I saw that it would take time to bear him away into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put upon his head.

Patriarchs and Prophets:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities into a land not inhabited." Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward.

Later in the chapter:

At the door of the tabernacle he laid his hands upon the head of the scapegoat and confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat." And as the goat bearing these sins was sent away, they were, with him, regarded as forever separated from the people.

later in the chapter:

Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty.
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The notion that there is still a "final penalty" that satan will bear for the sins of believers detracts from what Christ did on the cross. Christ paid in full for the sins of those who trust in Him, dying for them.

Satan will pay for his own sins, including temptation, in the lake of fire. But Jesus paid for the sins of His people.

The Scriptures indicate that Jesus died for the sins of those who have faith in Him. We have been justified by His blood:

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.

Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Moreover, Leviticus 16 indicates that atonement is made upon the scapegoat, with the sins of the people confessed over it, before it is sent out of the camp.

Leviticus 16:10 but the goat on which the lot fell for azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

Leviticus 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.

satan has no role in atoning for the sins of God's people.

Just as the Sacrifice pointed to the work of Jesus, so the the scapegoat ritual shows Jesus, our High Priest, removing sin from the people, sending it away from the camp.

To attribute an aspect of the atonement for the sins of God's people to satan is unbiblical.

 

[tall73]

Leviticus 16 discusses the scapegoat:

Leviticus 16:5 And he shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel two male goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 “Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel.[a] 9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and use it as a sin offering, 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

Verse 5 indicates that both the Lord's goat and the goat for azazel are for a sin offering. The two goats were both interchangeable, unblemished sacrificial animals.

Verse 10 specifically says that atonement is made over the live goat:

Leviticus 16:10 but the goat on which the lot fell for azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

Verse 20 further shows the process:

Leviticus 16:20 “And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall present the live goat. 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.

The two goats show different aspects of atonement, and therefore, both are represented by unblemished goats, suitable for sacrifice.

We see something similar in Leviticus 14 in offerings for the person who has leprosy.

Lev 14:4 the priest shall command them to take for him who is to be cleansed two live clean birds and cedarwood and scarlet yarn and hyssop.
Lev 14:5 And the priest shall command them to kill one of the birds in an earthenware vessel over fresh water.
Lev 14:6 He shall take the live bird with the cedarwood and the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, and dip them and the live bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water.
Lev 14:7 And he shall sprinkle it seven times on him who is to be cleansed of the leprous disease. Then he shall pronounce him clean and shall let the living bird go into the open field.

Both birds are used in the cleansing ceremony. One is killed and one released alive.

In the same way the two goats appear to show different aspects of atonement. The goat for the Lord makes blood atonement for the sins, and the live goat, for azazel (more on the term later), has the sins of the people confessed over it and is sent to the wilderness, showing the sins being removed completely from the camp, away from the people.

satan is not represented by an unblemished animal, and is not interchangable with Christ. No lot was cast to determine whether satan or the Son of God would redeem us. satan cannot make atonement for others. He will pay in the lake of fire for his own sins, including tempting others. He cannot "bear the sins of the righteous." Jesus already did.

The scapegoat represents another aspect of Jesus' atonement. As our High Priest Jesus removes sin from His people, sending it from the camp. He removes our sin.

 

[tall73]

The text describes the high priest confessing the sins of Israel on the live goat. Then the goat is removed from the camp.

The live goat is said to be for azazel. The meaning of this term is debated. Multiple views have been proposed, based on different etymologies. This post will review the different ideas regarding the meaning of azazel.

Regardless of which etymology and meaning is intended, the result is the same. The text shows the removal of sin from the people, from the camp. The high priest confesses the sins on the live goat which is sent away from the people, into the wilderness. And in fulfillment Jesusremoves sin from His people.

Jesus sheds His blood, represented by the Lord's goat, and makes blood atonement for sin.

But the scapegoat shows another aspect of His atonement, in that He still lives and removes all sin from His people:

Psalm 103:10He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

As to the various interpretations of the meaning of "azazel", here is an outline of some of the views:

Some see it as a combination of the Hebrew words for "goat" and "to go away".

Strongs:
‛ăzâ'zêl
az-aw-zale'
From H5795 and H235; goat of departure; the scapegoat: - scapegoat.

In this scenario the goat is sent away from the people, showing their sins being removed from them. All the sins are confessed on the goat, and they are then removed from the people.

Another suggested meaning is "total removal", based on the word for removal and what is seen to be a reduplicated intensive.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged - H5799
H5799. Azazel; עֲזָאזֵל noun [masculine] entire removal (reduplicated intensive (Ges§ 30 n. Sta§ 124 a), abstract, √ [עזל] = Arabic remove, see BährSymb. ii. 668 Winii. 659 ff. Me SchenkelBL. i. 256;

This has the same effect as the above, the goat is for total removal from the camp of the sins, showing the sins departing.

Another view is that the word is related to the term for rough ground. This seems to tie in with a later tradition, that shows the goat led to rough ground or a mountain that it is cast down from and killed. If one takes the view of the goat being cast off in the wilderness it still is removal of sin from the camp, where the goat cannot return. But since this is not referenced in the text, this doesn't seem likely to me.

Another view is that azazel is not derived from a word or combination of words, but is a proper name of a demon in the desert. Therefore one goat is "for" the Lord and one goat "for Azazel." This view notes that the later work, the book of Enoch, mentions a demon named Azazel. Though this in itself is debated (see later). The notion that azazel is a proper name is not stated in the text of Scripture, but rather inferred.

If Azazel is a proper name it is also important to note that the goat is not the demon, but is FOR azazel, and sent to him. So again it is picturing removal of the sins of the people from the camp, to the wildnerss where Azazel dwells. Sin is removed from God's people, and sent outside the camp, to the place of uncleanness where the demons dwell, in the desert.

An explanation of this view:

Keil and Delitzsch Commentary:

The two he-goats he was to place before Jehovah (see Lev_1:5), and “give lots over them,” i.e., have lots cast upon them, one lot for Jehovah, the other for Azazel. The one upon which the lot for Jehovah fell (עָלָה, from the coming up of the lot out of the urn, Jos_18:11; Jos_19:10), he was to prepare as a sin-offering for Jehovah, and to present the one upon which the lot for Azazel fell alive before Jehovah, עָלָיו לְכַפֵּר, “to expiate it,” i.e., to make it the object of expiation (see at Lev_16:21), to send it into the desert to Azazel.

So again they see it as sending the sins out of the camp, away form God's people, to the land of Azazel, the desert, land of demons. All sin would be removed from the people by Christ. So even in this view satan would not be the goat, and satan wouldn't be bearing the sins of the righteous, as Adventists indicate. Rather the sins would be separated from the people, and sent to the place where sin and satan and the demons are now relegated.

So whichever of the above views is taken this work involves removal of the sins of the people, which is done by the high priest who represents Jesus. Jesus removes sin from His people, and from the camp.

But the idea that Satan IS the goat is ruled out by the text. The goat is for azazel however it is defined. Both animals involved were sacrificial animals, and represent some aspect of the work of atonement. The scapegoat has atonement made upon it. satan has no part in the atonement of the sins of God's people.

The sins that are confessed are all the sins of the people of Israel. Those sins are seen as removed from the camp, removed from the people. Their sin is taken away.

 

[tall73]

This post presents more information on the view that azazel is a proper name for a demon. Much of the discussion of azazel as a name for a demon is in dispute. For instance, some doubt the connection to the book of Enoch.

From De-Demonising the Old Testament, JM Blair.

Moreover, a number of the scholars who hold to the view that azazel is a proper name are approaching the text from a critical view, often looking to other near eastern rites or literature, and proposing that this was borrowed and inserted into the text, not being from God, or mosaic in origin.

Again from the article:

 

[tall73]

Some did not benefit from the ministration of the high priest in the blood atonement, etc. because they did not participate in the rite.

Those who did not afflict themselves during the day of atonement were cut off, and therefore would not benefit from the ministration of the high priest.

Leviticus 23:26 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people.

It is in this cutting off that we see the fate of the wicked, also put out of the camp, away from God's people. They do not benefit from the atoning for sin and removal of sin from the camp. Rather they too are put out of the camp, as is the sin of the people.

 

[tall73]

Adventists have at times asserted that the live goat must point to an evil entity like satan because they say that the person who leads the goat is unclean following this.

But that is not what the text says.

First of all the same procedure is followed for those who carried the sin offerings, which Adventists admit apply to Christ: washing clothes, bathing, then coming into the camp.

Leviticus 16:26 And he who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. And they shall burn in the fire their skins, their flesh, and their offal. 28 Then he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.

Second, this is not describing uncleanness, nor is uncleanness indicated. In fact, the procedures for sin offerings is spelled out, and references any sin offering where the blood is taken into the sanctuary. And contrary to indicating uncleanness the sin offering and those things it touched were holy! The removal of the bodies had to be done in a clean place.

Leviticus 4:11 But the bull’s hide and all its flesh, with its head and legs, its entrails and offal— 12 the whole bull he shall carry outside the camp to a clean place, where the ashes are poured out, and burn it on wood with fire; where the ashes are poured out it shall be burned.

Leviticus 6:24 Also the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 25 “Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed, the sin offering shall be killed before the Lord. It is most holy. 26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of meeting. 27 Everyone who touches its flesh must be holy. And when its blood is sprinkled on any garment, you shall wash that on which it was sprinkled, in a holy place. 28 But the earthen vessel in which it is boiled shall be broken. And if it is boiled in a bronze pot, it shall be both scoured and rinsed in water. 29 All the males among the priests may eat it. It is most holy. 30 But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place, shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire.

The last clause includes any sin offering where blood is brought into the tabernacle, which includes the sin offering of the Day of Atonement. This procedure of washing the clothes and the body are describing a practice at a clean place, not someone who is unclean.

When someone was unclean, they would have to wait to be clean. Even in the case of touching an unclean animal the person was stated to be unclean, and was so until the evening:

Leviticus 11:24 ‘By these you shall become unclean; whoever touches the carcass of any of them shall be unclean until evening; 25 whoever carries part of the carcass of any of them shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening

Leviticus 11:24 ‘By these you shall become unclean; whoever touches the carcass of any of them shall be unclean until evening; 25 whoever carries part of the carcass of any of them shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening

When someone carried a normal carcass they could not wash and go back into the camp immediatly. In the sin offering regulations they would take the carcass to a clean place, and wash, and then go back to camp. But here they would be unclean until the evening and have to wait to go to clean places.

 

[BobRyan]

This thread will be testing by Scripture this Seventh-day Adventist teaching that Satan will bear the sins of the righteous.

There is not one SDA fundamental belief that says the Satan is a sin offering paying the debt of sin for anyone but himself. (As all who are SDAs already know - but it may come as a surprise to those reading snip-quotes from your op).

We do not claim that Satan is a sin offering at all and most certainly that he makes no atoning sacrifice for anyone not the saints and not the wicked.

In the earthly Day of Atonement service, there was a scapegoat (Leviticus 16). This animal symbolically received the sins from the sanctuary and carried them into the wilderness.

IN SDA doctrine those are rejected sins - which means it is those sins that someone asks for Christ's blood to cover - but are not covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ because the person is not a true Christian and of course "God is not mocked". Matt 7 depicts the cases of those who say to Christ "Lord Lord" but in fact are not born-again Christians.

So then those sins are returned back out of that sanctuary event -- back to the wicked who then pay their own debt for their own sins. Not as a "sin offering" but as a guilty sinner. Since the judgment has identified who is a child of God and who is not.

Which means that even Satan's own guilt for his own sin of tempting someone who is in God's kingdom and not at all one of his own loyal subjects - is a greater debt owed by Satan than merely tempting one of his own followers that chose him over Christ.

All of which would come as somewhat of a surprise to anyone reading your snip results offering a partial presentation for the benefit of those who don't have the background material.

==========================
Without the shedding of blood NO forgiveness of sin Heb 9
In Lev - ALL sin offerings require death of the atoning sacrifice

By contrast to that sin offering:
The scapegoat is NEVER called "the atoning sacrifice" or "THE sin offering" or called "A sin offering" in all of scripture

Lev 16: 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the ahazel (or Azazel), shall be presented alive before Avinu, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a ahazel (or Azazel) into the wilderness.

from: Azazel - Wikipedia

In the Bible, the name Azazel (/əˈzeɪzəl, ˈæzəˌzɛl/; Hebrew: עֲזָאזֵל‎ ʿAzāʾzēl; Arabic: عزازيل‎, romanized: ʿAzāzīl) appears in association with the scapegoat rite; the name represents a desolate place where a scapegoat bearing the sins of the Jews during Yom Kippur was sent. During the end of the Second Temple period, his association as a fallen angel responsible for introducing humans to forbidden knowledge emerged due to Hellenization, Christian narrative, and interpretation exemplified in the Book of Enoch. His role as a fallen angel partly remains in Christian and Islamic traditions.​

NET Bible translation - foot notes Leviticus 16
look up the verse in the NET and here is the footnote for the word "Azazel":

(3) The most common view among scholars today is that it is the proper name of a particular demon (perhaps even the Devil himself) associated with the wilderness desert regions. Levine has proposed that it may perhaps derive from a reduplication of the ז (zayin) in עֵז combined with אֵל (’el, “mighty”), meaning “mighty goat.” The final consonantal form of עֲזָאזֵל would have resulted from the inversion of the א (aleph) with the second ז. He makes the point that the close association between עֵז and שְׂעִירִים (shя’irim), which seems to refer to “goat-demons” of the desert in Lev 17:7 (cf. Isa 13:21, etc.), should not be ignored in the derivation of Azazel, although the term ultimately became the name of “the demonic ruler of the wilderness.” The latter view is supported by the parallel between the one goat “for (לְ, lamed preposition) the Lord” and the one “for (לְ) Azazel” here in v. 8. The rendering as a proper name has been tentatively accepted here (cf. ASV, NAB, NRSV, TEV, CEV). Perhaps a play on words between the proper name and the term for “goat” has occurred so that the etymology has become obscure. Even if a demon or the demonic realm is the source for the name, however, there is no intention here of appeasing the demons. The goal is to remove the impurity and iniquity from the community in order to avoid offending the Lord and the repercussions of such (see esp. vv. 21-22 and cf. Lev 15:31).​

By contrast to that scapegoat demon/fallen-angel -

"Repentance, confession, and restitution are all required. But these cannot atone for the sin; for God has been wronged in the person of His saints. The Lord Jesus alone is able to atone for sin, by the application of His blood, shed for the guilt of the sinner. His blood cleanses from all sin. 17LtMs, Ms 47, 1902, par. 12 “Lessons From the Eighteenth of Matthew.” UL 106.6​

​

"The blood of Christ was shed to atone for sin and to cleanse the sinner; and we must take hold of the merits of Christ's blood, and believe that we have life through his name". ST March 24, 1890, par. 1​

​

"The blood of Jesus Christ alone can atone for our transgressions. We must claim His righteousness by living faith, and depend on Him and abide in Him alone. We are always to feel our continual dependence upon God. This will scatter our self-sufficiency, our pride and vanity, to the winds." 1888 364.1​

And of course as we see in Heb 9 "without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin" --
In Lev 16 ALL sin offerings are a burnt offering - they are all slain.

BobRyan said:

So we know that Christ was perfect and sinless, and Ezek 28 says even Lucifer was created perfect and sinless - yet you are confused that both start as without spot in Lev 16. Figuring that easy one out is left as an exercise for the reader.​

​

In Rom 3 we find that God is BOTH just and merciful in His solution to the sin problem.​

In the Lev 16 solution to sin "Day of Atonement" we find BOTH justice and mercy.​

​

Where sin is punished in full BOTH in the case of the wicked and in the case of the saints and we find that the camp of the saints is purified with all sin removed. Which includes the false claims of the wicked returned upon their own heads and as Dan 7 points out "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". The wicked removed and the saints singled out and blessed as Romans 2 predicts.​

 

[tall73]

We do not claim that Satan is a sin offering at all and most certainly that he makes no atoning sacrifice for anyone not the saints and not the wicked.

You claim that satan is the live goat. Atonement is made over the live goat.

Leviticus 16:10 but the goat on which the lot fell for azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

satan has no part in the atonement for the sins of God's people.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I just added to my post because IMO all these threads just look like spam.

No they are well constructed, in-depth and very informative posts. Just because it's not your cup of tea, doesn't mean there's any wrongdoing taking place.

 

[tall73]

IN SDA doctrine those are rejected sins - which means it is those sins that someone asks for Christ's blood to cover - but are not covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ because the person is not a true Christian and of course "God is not mocked". Matt 7 depicts the cases of those who say to Christ "Lord Lord" but in fact are not born-again Christians.

That does not in fact match the statements Bob:

1. Scripture:

Leviticus 16:21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

The sins that were removed were all the sins of the Israelites in the type. But those who did not afflict themselves, etc. were cut off per Lev. 23.

2. Your church official website statement:

In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.

So you are claiming that the "sins of the righteous" are those that are not in fact believers?

3. Ellen White:

Great Controversy:
It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Bob, please explain how she says the sins of the "truly penitent" will finally be placed upon satan, but you claim they are not in fact truly penitent believers. How does she call them the sins of HIS people if they are not His people?

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)
He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

Explain how Ellen White can say that satan must bear all the sins of those who come to Jesus, when you say that they are not of Jesus?

Early Writings:
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.

You are claiming the redeemed host are the ones who are not redeemed?

All of which would come as somewhat of a surprise to anyone reading your snip results offering a partial presentation for the benefit of those who don't have the background material.

I prefer the full context.

Bob, I very much want you to post the full context that makes:

-"sins of the righteous" into the sins of the non-righteous.
-"the sins of the truly penitent" into the sins of the non-truly penitent
-"the sins of His people" into the sins of those not His people
-"the sins of all who come to Jesus" into the sins of those who don't
-"the sins of the redeemed host" into the sins of those unredeemed

That must be some context. Please demonstrate your claims.

 

[tall73]

No they are well constructed, in-depth and very informative posts. Just because it's not your cup of tea, doesn't mean there's any wrongdoing taking place.

Thank you. Though I did talk things over with the poster, and I think he was confused because originally I referred to the actual Adventist web site address in the title, and so he thought I was advertising a site. I can understand how that would be confusing.

And, he is correct that I have posted multiple threads critical of SDA theology. But you are also correct, that this is the section for such denomination specific theological posting.

 

[tall73]

Since Bob has claimed that these comments are taken out of context, I would encourage everyone who has an interest in the topic to go read the full context of each statement for themselves.

Those who do so will see that the context does not change what the statements say.

What Adventists Believe About Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary - Adventist.org

Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us here on earth. Learn more about what He is doing now so that when He comes back, we can be sure His judgments are made in love.

www.adventist.org

In the earthly Day of Atonement service, there was a scapegoat (Leviticus 16). This animal symbolically received the sins from the sanctuary and carried them into the wilderness.

In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.

The Great Controversy

m.egwwritings.org

Great Controversy.

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)

m.egwwritings.org

Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901) Ms 194, 1901

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

The Great Controversy

m.egwwritings.org

Great Controversy

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

Early Writings

m.egwwritings.org

Early Writings:

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

Ms 15, 1850

m.egwwritings.org

1LtMs, Ms 15, 1850, par. 8

Then I saw that Jesus’ work in the sanctuary was almost finished, almost finished, and after His work there is finished He will come to the door of the tabernacle, or door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the scape goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues come upon the wicked, and they do not come until Jesus puts on the garments of vengeance and takes His seat upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling the scape goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that bears him away. If he should effect his escape Israel would be destroyed (or slain). I saw that it would take time to bear him away into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put upon his head.

 

[trophy33]

I find it strange that somebody believes that a single modern American woman was inspired to write several times more text than there is in the whole Bible and that this text is authoritative.

Ellen G. White (November 26, 1827 - July 16, 1915), one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, is identified as author of about 155 books, about 5,000 periodical articles, and 200 pamphlets.

Ellen G. White bibliography - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tall73]

I find it strange that somebody believes that a single modern American woman was inspired to write several times more text than there is in the whole Bible and that this text is authoritative.

Ellen G. White (November 26, 1827 - July 16, 1915), one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, is identified as author of about 155 books, about 5,000 periodical articles, and 200 pamphlets.

Ellen G. White bibliography - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To help folks picture the amount of material:

I am not sure this includes some of the more recent manuscript releases from the White Estate.

As to what is meant by authoritative, here are some statements voted on by the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference:

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

The Gift of Prophecy
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

Statement of Confidence in the Writings of Ellen G White - Adventist.org

As delegates to the 2015 General Conference Session in San Antonio, Texas, we express our deep gratitude to God for the continuing presence of the various spiritual gifts among His people (1 Cor 12:4-11; Eph 4:11-14), and particularly for the prophetic guidance we have received through the life and ministry of Ellen G White (1827-1915).

On the centennial of her death, we rejoice that her writings have been made available around the globe in many languages and in a variety of printed and electronic formats.

We reaffirm our conviction that her writings are divinely inspired, truly Christ-centered, and Bible-based. Rather than replacing the Bible, they uplift the normative character of Scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations of it derived from tradition, human reason, personal experience, and modern culture.

We commit ourselves to study the writings of Ellen G White prayerfully and with hearts willing to follow the counsels and instructions we find there. Whether individually, in the family, in small groups, in the classroom, or in the church, a combined study of the Bible and her writings provide a transforming and faith-uplifting experience. We encourage the continued development of both worldwide and local strategies to foster the circulation of her writings inside and outside the church. The study of these writings is a powerful means to strengthen and prepare His people for the glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Eleventh Business Meeting | Adventist Review

Sixty-First General Conference Session, June 9, 2022, 2:00 p.m.

adventistreview.org

STATEMENT OF CONFIDENCE IN THE WRITINGS OF ELLEN G WHITE

As delegates to the 2022 General Conference Session in St Louis, Missouri, we express our deep gratitude for God’s prophetic guidance of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Aiming to live “by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matt 4:4, NKJV; cf. Luke 10:16), we take seriously the biblical passages that teach the abiding nature of the gift of prophecy (Rom 12:6; 1 Cor 12:10, 28; Eph 4:11-14) and promise its end-time manifestation (Joel 2:28-31; Rev 12:17; 19:10; 22:9). We recognize the gift of prophecy in the life and ministry of Ellen G White (1827-1915).

We believe that the writings of Ellen G White were inspired by the Holy Spirit and are Christ centered and Bible based. Rather than replacing Scripture, they uplift its normative character, safeguard the Church from “every wind of doctrine” (Eph 4:14), and offer an inspired guide to Bible passages without exhausting their meaning or preventing further study. They also help us to overcome the human tendency to accept from the Bible what we like and to distort or disregard what we do not like.

We commit ourselves to prayerfully study the writings of Ellen G White with hearts willing to follow the counsels and instructions found therein. Whether individually, in the family, in small groups, in the classroom, or in the church, we believe that the study of her writings brings us closer to God and His infallible Word—the Scriptures—providing us a transforming and faith-uplifting experience.

We rejoice in the Lord for what has already been accomplished in the global and local circulation of the writings of Ellen G White in both printed and electronic formats, including egwwritings.org and related apps. We encourage the continued development of both worldwide and local strategies to foster the circulation and study of her writings in as many languages as possible. The study of these writings is a powerful means to strengthen and prepare God’s people to face the challenges of these last days as we approach Christ’s soon return.

Read more at: Eleventh Business Meeting | Adventist Review

As to what Ellen White said of her writings:

Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5

m.egwwritings.org

God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne. {5T 67.2}

The Review and Herald

m.egwwritings.org

The statement which you quote from “Testimony,” No. 31, that “in these letters which I wrote, in the Testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision—the precious rays of light shining from the throne,” is correct. It is true concerning the articles in our papers and in the many volumes of my books. I have been instructed in accordance with the Word in the precepts of the law of God. I have been instructed in selecting from the lessons of Christ. {RH, September 6, 1906 par. 1}

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

IN SDA doctrine those are rejected sins - which means it is those sins that someone asks for Christ's blood to cover - but are not covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ because the person is not a true Christian and of course "God is not mocked". Matt 7 depicts the cases of those who say to Christ "Lord Lord" but in fact are not born-again Christians.

That does not in fact match the statements Bob:

You did not in fact find any statement from scripture or from SDA fundamental beliefs or from Ellen White saying that
1. Satan is a sin offering
2. Satan provides an atoning sacrifice for sin
3. The scapegoat (once designated, selected in Lev 16) is "the sin offering"
4. The scapegoat is slain as an offering for sin.

1. Scripture:

Leviticus 16:21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

A good example in Lev 16 where the phrase "the sin offering" does NOT refer to the scapegoat at all - once they are selected/chosen

Lev 16:
8 Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive

ONLY the goat that is FOR THE LORD is then a sin offering, only IT is slain for sin. The other goat - the scapegoat is presented ALIVE by contrast. And as Heb 9 points out "without the shedding of blood there is NO FORGIVENESS of sin" -- the scapegoat is not for "forgiveness" only the sin offering provides payment for penalty of sin.

Obviously.


15 “Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the atoning cover and in front of the atoning cover.

only the sin offerig is slain only it is said to be "for the people" and "for the Lord"

The problem with your various threads of speculations -- is in snip quotes and lack of attention to detail

2. Your church official website statement:

In the final cleansing of sin from the universe, there will be a final scapegoat. Satan, the arch-deceiver, will bear the sins of the righteous. When the sanctuary in Heaven is cleansed, those sins will be transferred to Satan.

So you are claiming that the "sins of the righteous" are those that are not in fact believers?

My claim is exactly as stated - SDAs have NO STATEMENTs in our fundamental beliefs or in Ellen White's statements nor in the Bible saying
1. The scapegoat is a sin offering
2. The scapegoat is paying the debt of sin on behalf of someone else
3. Satan pays the debt of sin on behalf of someone else; instead of Christ OR in addition to Christ

Period.

"Now the event takes place foreshadowed in the last solemn service of the Day of Atonement. When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, then the scapegoat was presented alive before the Lord; and in the presence of the congregation the high priest confessed over him “all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat.” Leviticus 16:21. In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God’s people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness." {GC 658.1}​

Satan bears the guilt of his own sin in causing someone else to sin.

3. Ellen White:

Great Controversy:
It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty

Ellen White (because Tall loves to quote snips from her without the full context which can lead to misrepresentation)

"Repentance, confession, and restitution are all required. But these cannot atone for the sin; for God has been wronged in the person of His saints. The Lord Jesus alone is able to atone for sin, by the application of His blood, shed for the guilt of the sinner. His blood cleanses from all sin. 17LtMs, Ms 47, 1902, par. 12 “Lessons From the Eighteenth of Matthew.” UL 106.6​

​

"The blood of Christ was shed to atone for sin and to cleanse the sinner; and we must take hold of the merits of Christ's blood, and believe that we have life through his name". ST March 24, 1890, par. 1​

​

"The blood of Jesus Christ alone can atone for our transgressions. We must claim His righteousness by living faith, and depend on Him and abide in Him alone. We are always to feel our continual dependence upon God. This will scatter our self-sufficiency, our pride and vanity, to the winds." 1888 364.1​

This provides the dead-end to your various suggestions

======================

As for your method of losing sight of these clear statements and then trying to use extreme inference and inuendo with other statements - as I said before - your issue is with your lack of attention to detail. Statements like the above place a "limit" to how much extreme inference and inuendo you can insert into the various cherry picked snips you find at times.

 

[BobRyan]

As Tall knows full well when SDAs are questioned about some doctrine that we actually HAVE in our Fundamental beliefs such as
1. The Ten commandments
2. What happens when someone dies
3. What is the Lake of Fire in Rev 20
4. What are the 2300 years in Dan 8
5. What is the Bible teaching on the rapture
6. Can the Sabbath commandment be edited or deleted after the cross

etc we show why we believe what we claim to believe.

But in threads like this - you have someone trying to "construe some belief" FOR US via wild and extreme inference - as IF we are going to circle the wagons and try and affirm/defend whatever belief someone else tries to construe for us.

That is simply not going to happen.

====================================

Meanwhile --

My claim is exactly as stated - SDAs have NO STATEMENTs in our fundamental beliefs or in Ellen White's statements nor in the Bible saying:

1. The scapegoat is a sin offering​

2. The scapegoat is paying the debt of sin on behalf of someone else​

3. Satan pays the debt of sin on behalf of someone else; instead of Christ OR in addition to Christ​

​

Misrepresentations to the contrary, posted by those opposed to SDA teaching -- not withstanding.

The really curious part is that -- since SDAs do have so many actual teachings that we DO affirm and defend -- that some others do NOT agree with -- WHY work so hard on making stuff up via extreme inference that we will not defend as even being our teaching???

 

[tall73]

In my next post I address all of the points Bob made, but for those who may not read the longer post, I will highlight one aspect:

My claim is exactly as stated - SDAs have NO STATEMENTs in our fundamental beliefs or in Ellen White's statements nor in the Bible saying
1. The scapegoat is a sin offering
2. The scapegoat is paying the debt of sin on behalf of someone else
3. Satan pays the debt of sin on behalf of someone else instead of Christ OR in addition to Christ

You say that Ellen White does not indicate that "Satan pays the debt of sin on behalf of someone else instead of Christ OR in addition to Christ."

Ellen White says precisely that satan bears not only the punishment of his own sins, but also the sins of the redeemed host which had been placed on him.

Early Writings:
Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.

In this statement there are three things he bears the punishment for:

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of (1)his own sins, but also of (2)the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for (3)the ruin of souls which he had caused.

1. His own sin
2. the sins of the redeemed host
3. the ruin of souls which he caused

 

[tall73]

A good example in Lev 16 where the phrase "the sin offering" does NOT refer to the scapegoat at all - once they are selected/chosen

Lev 16:
8 Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive

First you did not post verse 5, and have not explained how it could ever apply to satan:

Leviticus 16:5 And he shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel two male goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.

satan could not be represented by an unblemished sacrificial animal. Please explain how satan is symbolized by the same symbol as Jesus. Jesus is sinless, and satan is full of sin.

Next, regarding verse 7-10

7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel.

No lots were cast between the Son of God and satan to determine who would be the Lord's goat. Explain how satan could possibly be interchangeable with the Son of God.

9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and use it as a sin offering, 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

One is now specifically designated as a sin offering for blood atonement. However, the other, is also said to have atonement made over it in vs. 10. And as we will see from the explanation in verses 20-22, this is atonement for the sins of the people, removing the sins entirely from the people:

Leviticus 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.

The live goat bears all the iniquities away. That is the work of God, not satan.

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

ONLY the goat that is FOR THE LORD is then a sin offering, only IT is slain for sin. The other goat - the scapegoat is presented ALIVE by contrast. And as Heb 9 points out "without the shedding of blood there is NO FORGIVENESS of sin" -- the scapegoat is not for "forgiveness" only the sin offering provides payment for penalty of sin.

There was shedding of blood because two identical animals represent two aspects of the atonement process. One animal could not both die and be alive to remove sins. But Jesus could, because though his life was an offering for sin he shall prolong His days. He is raised. He sees the labor of His sould, and He justifies many, for He shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

only the sin offerig is slain only it is said to be "for the people" and "for the Lord"

The live goat is for removal, and the live goat has atonement made over it. And that atonement involves all the sins of the Israelites, as shown.

Now turning to your list of claims you indicate are not in the statements, you had to word this carefully to avoid the actual issues, and substitute other issues.

The problem with your various threads of speculations -- is in snip quotes and lack of attention to detail
My claim is exactly as stated - SDAs have NO STATEMENTs in our fundamental beliefs or in Ellen White's statements nor in the Bible saying
1. The scapegoat is a sin offering

You give no answer at all as to how satan can be represented by an unblemished sacrificial animal interchangeable with Christ. He cannot be. And the type specifies that. And your answer as to how the live goat has atonement made over it changes the statements, as we will see below.

2. The scapegoat is paying the debt of sin on behalf of someone else
3. Satan pays the debt of sin on behalf of someone else instead of Christ OR in addition to Christ

Ellen White says precisely that satan bears not only the punishment of his own sins, but also the sins of the redeemed host which had been placed on him.

Early Writings:

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.

Now Bob, you say I am taking this statement out of context. I provided a link to all the context. But it still says what it does. She says he must bear the punishment of the sins of the redeemed host.

Now you do go through only one of the other statements provided to show context. So let's look at that with the empahsis Bob applied:


Now the event takes place foreshadowed in the last solemn service of the Day of Atonement. When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, then the scapegoat was presented alive before the Lord; and in the presence of the congregation the high priest confessed over him “all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat.” Leviticus 16:21.

Tall73 commentary: Note, she says all the sins of the people are placed on the goat, referring to the text which also says that.

In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God’s people will be placed upon Satan;

Tall73 commentary: She says the sins of God's people will be placed on satan.


he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness. {GC 658.1}

Tall73 commentary: She indicates he is declared guilty of all the evil he caused them to commit.

Now Bob conclues the following from this:

Satan bears the guilt of his own sin in causing someone else to sin.

She stated the sins of all the people will be put upon him in this statement.

And you only gave the context for one statement because you wanted to highlight the aspect of temptation in his guilt. But she says all the sins are placed upon him. Meanwhile you avoided the other statements which spell out more clearly what he is suffering for.

Also from the Great Controversy:

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

She indicates he must pay the final penalty for the sins of God's people.

And in Early Writings she specifically lists three things he bears the punishment for:

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of (1)his own sins, but also of (2)the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for (3)the ruin of souls which he had caused.

1. His own sin
2. the sins of the redeemed host
3. the ruin of souls which he caused

Temptation and ruin of souls is separately listed from the sins of the redeemed host which were placed upon him, and for which he also bears punishment.

In the Bible text the sins are all of the sins of the people in Leviticus 16. And satan did not make you commit every sin you have committed.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Moreover, you previoulsy claimed that what was put on the goat was "rejected" sins for those who Jesus did not atone for. Now you have claimed what was put on him to be only his own guilt, for tempting. You changed the argument. And the reason is because one deflection from what she actually says is as good as another, but if you are going to try to go by her actual context, then there is nothing about "rejected" sins being involved.

Ellen White (because Tall loves to quote snips from her without the full context which can lead to misrepresentation)

There was no misrepresentaton, and you did not go back and put context for the quotes you wished to avoid, even though the full source was linked to in a post for folks to read.

Repentance, confession, and restitution are all required. But these cannot atone for the sin; for God has been wronged in the person of His saints. The Lord Jesus alone is able to atone for sin, by the application of His blood, shed for the guilt of the sinner. His blood cleanses from all sin. 17LtMs, Ms 47, 1902, par. 12 “Lessons From the Eighteenth of Matthew.” UL 106.6

The blood of Christ was shed to atone for sin and to cleanse the sinner; and we must take hold of the merits of Christ's blood, and believe that we have life through his name. ST March 24, 1890, par. 1

The blood of Jesus Christ alone can atone for our transgressions. We must claim His righteousness by living faith, and depend on Him and abide in Him alone. We are always to feel our continual dependence upon God. This will scatter our self-sufficiency, our pride and vanity, to the winds. 1888 364.1

This provides the dead-end to your various suggestions

Not at all. It shows a dead-end to relying on Ellen White when she contradicts herself on such an important issue as the atonement.

Leviticus 16:10 says that the live goat has atonement made over it. She says that live goat is satan.

But then she says only Jesus can atone for sin. I certainly agree with her that only Jesus can atone for sin. And that is why satan cannot be represented by an unblemished sacrificial animal, and cannot be involved in the atonement. He does not remove our sins from us. He does not bear th sins of the righteous. But Ellen White says he bears:

-"the sins of the truly penitent"
-"the sins of His people"
-"the sins of all who come to Jesus"
-"the sins of the redeemed host"

in the various quotes. And you did not in fact go back and show from the context how these meant the opposite.

 

[tall73]

As Tall knows full well when SDAs are questioned about some doctrine that we actually HAVE in our Fundamental beliefs such as
1. The Ten commandments
2. What happens when someone dies
3. What is the Lake of Fire in Rev 20
4. What are the 2300 years in Dan 8
5. What is the Bible teaching on the rapture
6. Can the Sabbath commandment be edited or deleted after the cross

etc we show why we believe what we claim to believe.

But in threads like this - you have someone trying to "construe some belief" FOR US via wild and extreme inference

Ah yes, I managed to edit the official site of the Adventist Church, in their explanation of their beliefs and put in that "Satan will bear the sins of the righteous."

No, that is just what they actually teach.

And we see it from Ellen White who's writings the church says are inspired, and which writings were around before tall73 was born or said anything about SDA beliefs:

Early Writings:
Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.

But we can see why Bob doesn't want to defend what they actually teach. Jesus took on the punishment of our sins. satan never could.
satan cannot be represented by a clean unblemished animal. satan and the Son of God are not interchangeable, and no lots were cast to see who would shed blood to save us. Jesus both shed His blood to atone for our sins and removes sins totally from His people.

 

[tall73]

Ellen White recognizes that the removal of the sins from the people is part of the atonement process in Leviticus 16. But she attributes it to placing sins on satan.

The Story of Patriarchs and Prophets, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 30: The Tabernacle and Its Services

"The command was communicated to Moses while in the mount with God, 'Let them make Me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them;' and full directions were given for the construction of the tabernacle. By their apostasy the Israelites forfeited the blessing of the divine Presence, and for the...

www.ellenwhite.info

Patriarchs and Prophets:

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities into a land not inhabited." Not until the goat had been thus sent away did the people regard themselves as freed from the burden of their sins. Every man was to afflict his soul while the work of atonement was going forward.

Later in the chapter:

At the door of the tabernacle he laid his hands upon the head of the scapegoat and confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat." And as the goat bearing these sins was sent away, they were, with him, regarded as forever separated from the people.

later in the chapter:

Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty.

It is with this understanding that we can now understand why she said what she did in the following quote from a letter to someone close to her:

Lt 8, 1850

m.egwwritings.org

Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.