Officer shoots, kills armed security guard outside south suburban bar

[disciple Clint]

I wasn't there clint...so I certainly don't know how it went down. My understanding though, was that he was kneeling over a subdued subject (meaning the subject wasn't struggling) who, again, I'm assuming is prone on the ground.

While it's true that he may still have been concealing a weapon in his waistband or something....the security guard still can't legally shoot him until he's at least reaching for it...which is easier to avoid if you're using both hands.

Of course, if my understanding of the situation is wrong...feel free to correct me.

Cannot correct you because I do not know the facts. My thinking is based on tactical considerations, I would not holster my weapon until I had a cover officer.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Cannot correct you because I do not know the facts. My thinking is based on tactical considerations, I would not holster my weapon until I had a cover officer.

Fair enough...I've subdued a number of subjects in my career, and a small number were armed with more than a knife at the time. As a general rule, I never pull my gun unless either one of two things has happened...

1. I see the subject has a weapon.

2. I have a very good reason to believe that the subject has a weapon.

Now granted, I utilize certain techniques which would make it very difficult for someone to reach for a weapon once I have them on the ground....and it's not likely this security guard was trained in these things. I also doubt he carried cuffs or other restraints to keep the subject from reaching for a weapon. The flipside is that he's a pretty big boy, and if one carries a gun for work...and is expected to possibly restrain people until the cops arrive....one should take it upon themselves to try and figure out a way to do that which doesn't involve pointing a loaded gun at them until the cops show up.

There's just so many ways that could go wrong....even in a short amount of time. Getting shot by the cop arriving on scene is really just one of them. He could've easily been shot by a bystander with a gun who thought he was helping. He could've been shot by an accomplice to the subject he subdued. He could've had his gun taken by the subject if he got distracted for a moment. He could've gotten startled/surprised and shot the subject unnecessarily....or a bystander unnecessarily....or himself.

My point is, if that's his way of handling it, he's got about a dozen ways the situation could go wrong for him....and really only one way it could go right.

 

[disciple Clint]

Fair enough...I've subdued a number of subjects in my career, and a small number were armed with more than a knife at the time. As a general rule, I never pull my gun unless either one of two things has happened...

1. I see the subject has a weapon.

2. I have a very good reason to believe that the subject has a weapon.

Now granted, I utilize certain techniques which would make it very difficult for someone to reach for a weapon once I have them on the ground....and it's not likely this security guard was trained in these things. I also doubt he carried cuffs or other restraints to keep the subject from reaching for a weapon. The flipside is that he's a pretty big boy, and if one carries a gun for work...and is expected to possibly restrain people until the cops arrive....one should take it upon themselves to try and figure out a way to do that which doesn't involve pointing a loaded gun at them until the cops show up.

There's just so many ways that could go wrong....even in a short amount of time. Getting shot by the cop arriving on scene is really just one of them. He could've easily been shot by a bystander with a gun who thought he was helping. He could've been shot by an accomplice to the subject he subdued. He could've had his gun taken by the subject if he got distracted for a moment. He could've gotten startled/surprised and shot the subject unnecessarily....or a bystander unnecessarily....or himself.

My point is, if that's his way of handling it, he's got about a dozen ways the situation could go wrong for him....and really only one way it could go right.

If he does not have his trigger finger indexed he could accidentally discharge his weapon. You may be a super strong guy but I have seen it take 3 and more good sized super strong officers to subdue a suspect. I have also seen stun guns fail to be effective numerous times. it depends on what the suspect has in his system. There is no assurance that you can control that suspect so keep the advantage that you have or suffer the consequences. I have plenty of war stories believe me. There is every reason to think that this suspect is armed, he just used a gun to assault someone. It is standard operating procedure to expect to find more guns after you find the first gun. You might have your own theories but I went home every night.

 

[mark kennedy]

'
Upon the arrival of the police all "good guys with guns" should put their guns on the ground as the police cannot tell the good guys from the bad in that situation.

Armed security personnel should have some means of identifying themselves as such to the police. It's 2018 for heaven's sake. Isn't there an 'app' for that.

The account says that they were yelling security, but the cop was too trigger happy to hear that. The guy was just doing his job and wanted to be a cop, this is mindlessly wrong.

 

[disciple Clint]

The account says that they were yelling security, but the cop was too trigger happy to hear that. The guy was just doing his job and wanted to be a cop, this is mindlessly wrong.

Which account are you reading. There is more than one and the investigation to determine which parts of what story are correct has yet to be completed. Would you want to be judged on incomplete facts before the investigation is completed and findings are made?

 

[mark kennedy]

Which account are you reading. There is more than one and the investigation to determine which parts of what story are correct has yet to be completed. Would you want to be judged on incomplete facts before the investigation is completed and findings are made?

Of course there is an ongoing investigation, I'm basing that statement on the video linked in the OP. I'm not saying any of this is cut and dried but a cop shooting a security guard who has the drop on a bad guy is not good for police business. Clear cut case of shooting first and asking questions later but we will wait and see what the investigation yields. I'm guessing the cop will be cleared of any wrong doing, but that doesn't make what he did right and a good man is dead. We should all take a minute and consider what that means down the road.

 

[Nithavela]

Of course there is an ongoing investigation, I'm basing that statement on the video linked in the OP. I'm not saying any of this is cut and dried but a cop shooting a security guard who has the drop on a bad guy is not good for police business. Clear cut case of shooting first and asking questions later but we will wait and see what the investigation yields. I'm guessing the cop will be cleared of any wrong doing, but that doesn't make what he did right and a good man is dead. We should all take a minute and consider what that means down the road.

There's a thing called a citizens arrest, where a citizen is allowed to hold a perpetrator until police arrives.

If I were a resident of the USA and ever harboured ambitions to help law enforcement in this way, those ambitions would go right out the window. I'd just step aside and let the "bad guys" escape.

 

[disciple Clint]

Of course there is an ongoing investigation, I'm basing that statement on the video linked in the OP. I'm not saying any of this is cut and dried but a cop shooting a security guard who has the drop on a bad guy is not good for police business. Clear cut case of shooting first and asking questions later but we will wait and see what the investigation yields. I'm guessing the cop will be cleared of any wrong doing, but that doesn't make what he did right and a good man is dead. We should all take a minute and consider what that means down the road.

Glad to see that you are not holding any biased opinions.

 

[mark kennedy]

There's a thing called a citizens arrest, where a citizen is allowed to hold a perpetrator until police arrives.

If I were a resident of the USA and ever harboured ambitions to help law enforcement in this way, those ambitions would go right out the window. I'd just step aside and let the "bad guys" escape.

It sounds like he was just doing his job, he was a security guard and that was his job. He wasn't just some random guy who had someone at gun point. He played the organ in church btw and wanted to be a cop. It's just such a sad situation, it just looks like a good man gunned down for no good reason but we will see.

 

[mark kennedy]

Glad to see that you are not holding any biased opinions.

I can't help my reaction, I do appreciate that we do well not to jump to too many conclusions. This just looks like a trigger happy cop, who will probably be cleared of any wrong doing. That don't make it right.

 

[Nithavela]

It sounds like he was just doing his job, he was a security guard and that was his job.

His job was to protect the place, not to arrest anyone. He could have disarmed the guy and let him go. Had he done so, he'd propably still be alive today.

 

[disciple Clint]

I can't help my reaction, I do appreciate that we do well not to jump to too many conclusions. This just looks like a trigger happy cop, who will probably be cleared of any wrong doing. That don't make it right.

Wow if you ever have to face a trial I hope you dont have to rely on a verdict from people who decide what you did and why before the trial even begins.

 

[mark kennedy]

His job was to protect the place, not to arrest anyone. He could have disarmed the guy and let him go. Had he done so, he'd propably still be alive today.

That don't mean shoot him, the gun wasn't pointed at the cop which would constitute an imminent threat. He had a guy at gun point, maybe he was wrong for doing it but that isn't really all that clear in the law. The situation appears to have been under control, I think that cop recklessly over reacted.

 

[Nithavela]

That don't mean shoot him, the gun wasn't pointed at the cop which would constitute an imminent threat. He had a guy at gun point, maybe he was wrong for doing it but that isn't really all that clear in the law. The situation appears to have been under control, I think that cop recklessly over reacted.

I think you misunderstood my post.

 

[mark kennedy]

Wow if you ever have to face a trial I hope you dont have to rely on a verdict from people who decide what you did and why before the trial even begins.

That's not necessarily my final conclusion, I have one eye witness account and have an opinion about what happened based on that. If there is something else regarding the facts of the incident I have yet to see them.

 

[mark kennedy]

I think you misunderstood my post.

Perhaps, you may have been suggesting security guards might in the future not be so high handed. Then again, maybe the security guard had no real justification for putting a gun to someone's head, there's a pretty good argument there. I'm just saying, this looks like excessive force.

 

[Nithavela]

Perhaps, you may have been suggesting security guards might in the future not be so high handed. Then again, maybe the security guard had no real justification for putting a gun to someone's head, there's a pretty good argument there. I'm just saying, this looks like excessive force.

What i was suggesting was that because of such behaviour by the police, in the future some civilians might be deterred from making civilian arrests.

 

[disciple Clint]

That don't mean shoot him, the gun wasn't pointed at the cop which would constitute an imminent threat. He had a guy at gun point, maybe he was wrong for doing it but that isn't really all that clear in the law. The situation appears to have been under control, I think that cop recklessly over reacted.

And what would you think if the man dressed in black, that you have not yet identified as security, shoots the person that he is on top of and has a gun pointed at, would you think that you had just allowed an innocent person to be murdered because you failed to act to save his life? Now if the officer did order the subject to drop the gun and he did not which is what some witness say happened would the shooting be justified, you have to make a decision do you have to take a life to save a life? what are you going to do? Now you have all night to think this over and take tomorrow too what the heck but the officer needs to act and act now.

 

[mark kennedy]

Fair enough...I've subdued a number of subjects in my career, and a small number were armed with more than a knife at the time. As a general rule, I never pull my gun unless either one of two things has happened...

1. I see the subject has a weapon.

2. I have a very good reason to believe that the subject has a weapon.

Now granted, I utilize certain techniques which would make it very difficult for someone to reach for a weapon once I have them on the ground....and it's not likely this security guard was trained in these things. I also doubt he carried cuffs or other restraints to keep the subject from reaching for a weapon. The flipside is that he's a pretty big boy, and if one carries a gun for work...and is expected to possibly restrain people until the cops arrive....one should take it upon themselves to try and figure out a way to do that which doesn't involve pointing a loaded gun at them until the cops show up.

There's just so many ways that could go wrong....even in a short amount of time. Getting shot by the cop arriving on scene is really just one of them. He could've easily been shot by a bystander with a gun who thought he was helping. He could've been shot by an accomplice to the subject he subdued. He could've had his gun taken by the subject if he got distracted for a moment. He could've gotten startled/surprised and shot the subject unnecessarily....or a bystander unnecessarily....or himself.

My point is, if that's his way of handling it, he's got about a dozen ways the situation could go wrong for him....and really only one way it could go right.

I must have missed something, how could things go right?

 

[mark kennedy]

And what would you think if the man dressed in black, that you have not yet identified as security, shoots the person that he is on top of and has a gun pointed at, would you think that you had just allowed an innocent person to be murdered because you failed to act to save his life? Now if the officer did order the subject to drop the gun and he did not which is what some witness say happened would the shooting be justified, you have to make a decision do you have to take a life to save a life? what are you going to do? Now you have all night to think this over and take tomorrow too what the heck but the officer needs to act and act now.

That sounds like a big what if, of course we wonder about those things. How about the cop orders him to put the gun away, that might have been a way to resolve the situation.