Obama Forces Abortion, Condoms and Mornnig After Pills on Catholics

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Btodd

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None of that is relevant because it is the employer contracting to provide the services. If the employer dropped the health benefit, the insurance co would not dispense the contraceptives to the employee. So by contracting with the insurance company the employer is responsible for the said distribution. And it makes no sense that anyone should be forced by the government to provide its services for free

The employer is not contracting that the insurer provides contraception, which was the original complaint. Once that was rectified, the employer still wants to dictate what a citizen does with their private life, even when the employer has been exempted from violating their conscience. 'Free expression of religion' does not entail 'monitoring what people do with their private lives'.

If a Catholic hospital uses an insurer that offers contraception to ANYONE, then they're already 'violating their conscience', by helping a company that provides contraception prosper...their money will ALWAYS be supporting contraception to some degree. If they're going to have ridiculously strident ideals, then let's see 'em really stick to it, and form their own insurance company that absolutely refuses to offer contraception. If they don't, they will continue to be hypocrites about it, and continue to misuse the word 'freedom' in the name of discrimination in people's private lives.


Btodd
 
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MachZer0

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Btodd said:
The employer is not contracting that the insurer provides contraception, which was the original complaint. Once that was rectified, the employer still wants to dictate what a citizen does with their private life, even when the employer has been exempted from violating their conscience. 'Free expression of religion' does not entail 'monitoring what people do with their private lives'.

If a Catholic hospital uses an insurer that offers contraception to ANYONE, then they're already 'violating their conscience', by helping a company that provides contraception prosper...their money will ALWAYS be supporting contraception to some degree. If they're going to have ridiculously strident ideals, then let's see 'em really stick to it, and form their own insurance company that absolutely refuses to offer contraception. If they don't, they will continue to be hypocrites about it, and continue to misuse the word 'freedom' in the name of discrimination in people's private lives.

Btodd

Would the insurer provide the contraceptives absent the employers' contracts?
 
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Btodd

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Would the insurer provide the contraceptives absent the employers' contracts?

Nope. This is irrelevant, because if the Catholic Church really wants to go to such great lengths to pretend that they're being forced to support contraception, then they wouldn't give money to an insurer that provides contraception...but they do. So they're hypocrites.

They're officially excluded from offering contraception under their health-care plan, and the decision is left up to the citizen and the insurer. But that's not enough for the Catholic Church; they need to actually dictate what a citizen does in their private life, and call it 'religious freedom'....with the support of MY tax dollars. Do I get a say-so? Nope. Because if you believe in something, that's inconsequential...but if you believe in something based on faith that some God told you so, then that totally changes things. Right?

So I guess if I started a religion in which I claimed that my faith involved God dictating that smoking cigarettes was against his will, then I could claim religious persecution if the cost of my insurance policy factored treatment for long-time smokers into its equation?

I would really like an answer on that last part, please. Let's see how far you're really willing to take this premise.


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MachZer0

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Nope. This is irrelevant, because if the Catholic Church really wants to go to such great lengths to pretend that they're being forced to support contraception, then they wouldn't give money to an insurer that provides contraception...but they do. So they're hypocrites.
Actually, it's the opposite. Since the insurer wouldn't be providing contraceptives to the employees without the employer's contract, then it is the employer's contract that results in hat the employer considers a sin. :thumbsup:

They're officially excluded from offering contraception under their health-care plan, and the decision is left up to the citizen and the insurer. But that's not enough for the Catholic Church; they need to actually dictate what a citizen does in their private life, and call it 'religious freedom'....with the support of MY tax dollars. Do I get a say-so? Nope. Because if you believe in something, that's inconsequential...but if you believe in something based on faith that some God told you so, then that totally changes things. Right?
The Church is not dictating what their employees do in their private lives. They just object to being forced to facilitate what they consider a sin

So I guess if I started a religion in which I claimed that my faith involved God dictating that smoking cigarettes was against his will, then I could claim religious persecution if the cost of my insurance policy factored treatment for long-time smokers into its equation?

I would really like an answer on that last part, please. Let's see how far you're really willing to take this premise.


Btodd
You would only have a point if you were forced to provide cigarettes to people.
 
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Btodd

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Actually, it's the opposite. Since the insurer wouldn't be providing contraceptives to the employees without the employer's contract, then it is the employer's contract that results in hat the employer considers a sin. :thumbsup:

It is not a Catholic Hospital's right to monitor a person's private life for 'sin'.


MachZer0 said:
The Church is not dictating what their employees do in their private lives. They just object to being forced to facilitate what they consider a sin

No, they were specifically excepted from being forced to do anything. What the private citizen and the insurer do between themselves is no longer the hospital's business. This goes far beyond 'free expression' of religion.


MachZer0 said:
You would only have a point if you were forced to provide cigarettes to people.

But the cost of my insurance is higher because it includes the fact that treatments for people that are smokers will be factored into the equation. I'm being forced to support smoking! It's against my beliefs! Oppression! Oppression! I haven't even mentioned mentioned alcohol yet, or people eating lots of cheeseburgers! I must stop them from doing it!

See how easy it is? :p


Btodd
 
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MachZer0

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It is not a Catholic Hospital's right to monitor a person's private life for 'sin'.
It's not the government's right to force someone to facilitate the sins of others

No, they were specifically excepted from being forced to do anything. What the private citizen and the insurer do between themselves is no longer the hospital's business. This goes far beyond 'free expression' of religion.
It's not between them only when the employer is contracting with the insurance company for services
But the cost of my insurance is higher because it includes the fact that treatments for people that are smokers will be factored into the equation. I'm being forced to support smoking! It's against my beliefs! Oppression! Oppression! I haven't even mentioned mentioned alcohol yet, or people eating lots of cheeseburgers! I must stop them from doing it!

See how easy it is? :p
Did you mean do I see how easy it was for you to fail? yes I did. In your scenario, your premium goes towards helping people recover from the effects of their sin, but not for facilitating the sin. Fail big time. Moreover, the government isn't forcing you to buy that policy.
 
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Btodd

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It's not the government's right to force someone to facilitate the sins of others

They're not being forced. They have no responsibility for what a private citizen does with an insurer. The transaction being made is not supported by the hospital, as they clearly leave it out of their policy.

Let's say your employer provides you with a cell phone, but specifically excepts texting from their plan. Does that mean they have the right to keep you from purchasing a text messaging plan from the carrier on your own? Of course not. What if they're against texting? Still, no. They might be able to state that you cannot text on the job, but they wouldn't be able to dictate what you do in your private life.


MachZer0 said:
It's not between them only when the employer is contracting with the insurance company for services

See above.


MachZer0 said:
Did you mean do I see how easy it was for you to fail? yes I did. In your scenario, your premium goes towards helping people recover from the effects of their sin, but not for facilitating the sin. Fail big time. Moreover, the government isn't forcing you to buy that policy.

By the way, contraception does more than just help prevent pregnancy. I didn't realize that prescribing something that is a health benefit in some cases was a 'sin'. But you're still saying that the Catholic Hospital (with the aid of public funding) can do what you said the government should not. Interfere with the free exercise of religion.


Btodd
 
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MachZer0

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They're not being forced. They have no responsibility for what a private citizen does with an insurer. The transaction being made is not supported by the hospital, as they clearly leave it out of their policy.
I believe you admitted yourself that absent the employers' contracts, the insurer would not be providing free contraceptives. That puts the responsibility for what is provided on the employer regardless of Obama's silly "work around"
Let's say your employer provides you with a cell phone, but specifically excepts texting from their plan. Does that mean they have the right to keep you from purchasing a text messaging plan from the carrier on your own? Of course not. What if they're against texting? Still, no. They might be able to state that you cannot text on the job, but they wouldn't be able to dictate what you do in your private life.
Uh, yes it does exclude you from buying a text plan on your own. Now, if you want to buy your own plan from the same cell phone service, that would be different. Thus, the employees in our situation are free to buy their own health insurance plans and get free contraceptives.
I can make the same ridiculous claim you are...that if my dollars are being spent on it at all, then it violates my conscience, because I feel like if I withheld dollars from smoking treatments, it would give people an incentive not to smoke. You just want to force me to help people smoke! How dare you! ;)


Btodd
In your scenario, you aren't being forced to help anyone smoke. So FAIL, again
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Are they also responsible if an employee used the money they were paid by the employer to purchase contraceptives? I don't believe this is the case in either of scenarios myself. If people are that scared about inadvertently "supporting" something it would probably be best for them to not pay people to begin with. Just have volunteers working.
 
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Btodd

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I believe you admitted yourself that absent the employers' contracts, the insurer would not be providing free contraceptives. That puts the responsibility for what is provided on the employer regardless of Obama's silly "work around"

No, it puts the choice on the private citizen, because contraception is not provided unless that citizen makes a free choice to request it. It is not 'forced' on anyone that does not want to use it. This moves beyond free expression and into controlling an employee's private life, and uses public dollars to promote a specific religious belief.


MachZer0 said:
Uh, yes it does exclude you from buying a text plan on your own. Now, if you want to buy your own plan from the same cell phone service, that would be different.

Not by your logic, because the employer is the one that 'set you up' with the carrier in the first place. Remember, the argument is that hospitals feel 'forced' to provide contraception. In my example, it's the same as after the compromise...the employer in my analogy is not 'forced' to offer texting. It's up to the consumer and the carrier.


Btodd
 
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MachZer0

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Btodd said:
No, it puts the choice on the private citizen, because contraception is not provided unless that citizen makes a free choice to request it. It is not 'forced' on anyone that does not want to use it. This moves beyond free expression and into controlling an employee's private life, and uses public dollars to promote a specific religious belief.

Not by your logic, because the employer is the one that 'set you up' with the carrier in the first place. Remember, the argument is that hospitals feel 'forced' to provide contraception. In my example, it's the same as after the compromise...the employer in my analogy is not 'forced' to offer texting. It's up to the consumer and the carrier.

Btodd

Once a private citizen receives his wages, they are his and he can do as he pleases, but in this case, the citizen only has access to the insurance because of a contract involving the employer. So any employee in this case should simply take the wages to a pharmacy and purchase whatever medication the doctor has prescribed.
 
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Btodd

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Once a private citizen receives his wages, they are his and he can do as he pleases, but in this case, the citizen only has access to the insurance because of a contract involving the employer. So any employee in this case should simply take the wages to a pharmacy and purchase whatever medication the doctor has prescribed.

'When' he receives his wages is irrelevant. Once a single paycheck is received, this issue is irrelevant. At that point, he can do whatever he wants with his money, including a transaction with the insurance carrier, and the partially-public funded hospital cannot claim to be a religious enterprise while using tax dollars to exist.

See you soon.


Btodd
 
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MachZer0

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'When' he receives his wages is irrelevant. Once a single paycheck is received, this issue is irrelevant. At that point, he can do whatever he wants with his money, including a transaction with the insurance carrier,
The trouble being that there is no transaction involving the employee's wages. This is a benefit the government is forcing because of the contract between the employer and employee.
and the partially-public funded hospital cannot claim to be a religious enterprise while using tax dollars to exist.

See you soon.


Btodd
Of course they can. Funding does not determine belief.
 
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Btodd

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The trouble being that there is no transaction involving the employee's wages.

There is also no transaction involving the hospital's (partial publicly-funded) money. It's entirely shifted to the insurer.

MachZer0 said:
This is a benefit the government is forcing because of the contract between the employer and employee.Of course they can. Funding does not determine belief.

Funding doesn't determine belief, but it does determine who has say-so in belief. Since the hospital is not funding it entirely (and some of my tax dollars are), they cannot claim sole control over beliefs. If you think that a government that tries to dictate this right is overstepping their bounds, then so is the Catholic Church. This was a compromise between the two positions, but that's still not enough, and the Catholic Church thinks they can dictate what private, non-Catholic citizens, can do with their private lives.

And that's supposed to be called 'religious freedom'. Hahahahaha. Right.


Btodd
 
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MachZer0

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There is also no transaction involving the hospital's (partial publicly-funded) money. It's entirely shifted to the insurer.
Sorry, but there is indeed a transaction involving the hospital. Remove the hospital/employer and you remove the insurance policy and thus there is no requirement for the insurance company to provide the birth control.

What it boils down to is that Obama thinks he can fool Catholic organizations and he thinks he can fool God. The upshot is that he only fooled himself

Funding doesn't determine belief, but it does determine who has say-so in belief. Since the hospital is not funding it entirely (and some of my tax dollars are), they cannot claim sole control over beliefs. If you think that a government that tries to dictate this right is overstepping their bounds, then so is the Catholic Church. This was a compromise between the two positions, but that's still not enough, and the Catholic Church thinks they can dictate what private, non-Catholic citizens, can do with their private lives.

And that's supposed to be called 'religious freedom'. Hahahahaha. Right.


Btodd
That's an odd representation of the first amendment and an odd representation of the Catholic Church. Note that the church is not dictating what people do with their private lives but rather is choosing what it will do with its resources.
 
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A2SG

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Last I checked the First Amendment was not the "only amendment".

True, but since it's the one that refers to the free exercise of religion, it's the only one I could think of that seemed relevant. If you meant some other amendment, perhaps you could let me know which one.

The right to free exercise is one in which the religion may be practiced freely. Not through burdensome legislation.

And you can. As I said, if you oppose abortion on religious grounds, the first amendment protects your right to not have one forced upon you. That's about it, though.

There is also the right to the produce of our work, our possessions, which are being dictated as under the government's discretion.

What amendment are you referring to here?

It's as simple as that: you must purchase health insurance. Yet the fourteenth amendment says "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law". The property amendment is violated. In fact, it is so oddly violated as to be construed as enslavement of a person to a private insurance company.

No, your right to due process is not violated here. If you feel otherwise, you are more than free to take your case to court, that's where the right to due process happens.

To wit: let's say the insurance company ends up requiring your entire take-home pay. Pretty obvious what that would be: slavery, serfdom.

You forgot one: complete fantasy. No insurance company requires your entire take home pay, none even come close!

Now back it off, say 80% of your income. Are you telling me you're 20% free, and so that's okay by the Constitution?

You're still in the realm of fantasy, since insurance premiums are not that high.

But, even if we say, for the sake of argument, that your insurance premiums are prohibitively high, there is still no Constitutional issue here: your right to due process is not violated.

You need a better insurance plan, that's all. Check around, I'm sure there are cheaper plans available. Like any republican would tell you, that's the free market at work!

So too any percentage. The Constitution prevents us from being enslaved, even "just a little enslavement".

Who are you quoting there? If you are referring to the 13th Amendment, those words aren't in there.

We can only be obligated through our agreements, and taxed through events. Otherwise: it's enslavement.

Yup. Nothing about a requirement that health insurance includes contraception (the point of this thread) violates that. Neither does the health insurance mandate.

Now, I will grant you the mandate does have Consititutional problems, but those involve the commerce clause of the Constitution (Article 1, Section 8), but that doesn't involve any infringement on your personal rights, religious or otherwise. It involves the scope and limits of the federal government.

Oh, so now when I pay a private insurer it's called a "tax".

Nope, it's still called a premium. Just like when you pay car insurance, as mandated by the state you live in.

Well it's not a tax, it's an enforced monopoly, even more so by the compelling of people to buy the (nonexistent) product.

It's not a monopoly, because there's more than one insurance company.

Such has never been tolerated in the United States nor in the colonies before it. Compelling people to buy something, just because they exist! Again, this is enslavement.

It's not enslavement at all. If you're unclear, I suggest you look up the word's definition.

See, I agree with you that the mandate is a bad idea. I disagreed with it when Governor Romney instituted it here in my state, I just don't call it what it is not. It's not slavery.

"Then it came burning hot in my mind, whatever he said, and however he flattered, when he got me home to his house, he would sell me for a slave." -- Bunyan

See, one of the main characteristics of slavery is that human beings are bought and sold as property. That doesn't happen with the health insurance mandate. Thus, it isn't slavery.

-- A2SG, it may be many things, and I'll agree with a lot of characterizations of it, but not that one.....
 
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A2SG

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Note that the church is not dictating what people do with their private lives but rather is choosing what it will do with its resources.

Seems to me, if the Catholic Church needs to go to these lengths to deny contraception to people who quite clearly want it, they've lost the battle already.

See, no one who believes in the church's doctrine about contraception is involved here: they aren't asking for or getting contraceptives. It's only those who DON'T agree with the church's doctrine in this issue.

-- A2SG, the church is trying to economically enforce it's doctrine rather than let people use the free will they teach god gave us all.....you don't see a problem there?
 
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MachZer0

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Seems to me, if the Catholic Church needs to go to these lengths to deny contraception to people who quite clearly want it, they've lost the battle already.

See, no one who believes in the church's doctrine about contraception is involved here: they aren't asking for or getting contraceptives. It's only those who DON'T agree with the church's doctrine in this issue.

-- A2SG, the church is trying to economically enforce it's doctrine rather than let people use the free will they teach god gave us all.....you don't see a problem there?
The Catholic Church is not denying contraception to anyone. Everyone of the employees affected by the church's policy can walk into a pharmacy with a valid prescription and purchase contraceptives.
 
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A2SG

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The Catholic Church is not denying contraception to anyone.

No, they're only demanding that an employees' insurance carriers not provide something they disapprove of.

Everyone of the employees affected by the church's policy can walk into a pharmacy with a valid prescription and purchase contraceptives.

Out of their own pocket only. Not as part of the medical insurance they are provided by their employer.

Since when does an employer get to make decisions about what medical issues your insurance is allowed to grant you?

-- A2SG, you have heard of griswold v connecticut, haven't you?
 
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