NT translation that shows all alternatives?

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I have certain ideas that don't match with the standard interpretation of some things (in particular the Wheat and Tares parable). I suspect that I could redo the translation from Greek to make the parable say what I think it should say.

Is there a version of the bible where each word has all possible translations of that word in parentheses or something?

Another method might be to look at very early sermons about this parable by Greek-speaking priests to see if any of them understood the parable the way I think it should be understood.
 

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
cloudyday2 said:
I have certain ideas that don't match with the standard interpretation of some things (in particular the Wheat and Tares parable). I suspect that I could redo the translation from Greek to make the parable say what I think it should say.

Is there a version of the bible where each word has all possible translations of that word in parentheses or something?

Another method might be to look at very early sermons about this parable by Greek-speaking priests to see if any of them understood the parable the way I think it should be understood.

You're going to need more sophisticated tools than a translation. Unless you learn the original language, though, you're not in a position to judge whether what you want the text to say is a viable translation.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
The usual tool is a good critical commentary. It will normally review all the major interpretations and any major textual issues.

Thanks. Do you know of any websites where a person could look up early sermons on various parables? I know many of the sermons from St. John Chrysostom were recorded. I'm not likely to learn Greek as suggested or read dozens of books. I was hoping the internet might have something somewhere.

Probably looking for Greek speakers from early times who had a different understanding of this parable is more likely to yield a sensible alternative.

Basically, I think the tares that get burned-up in hell must be false teachings and the bad fruits as opposed to people. I think the people are the soil just like they were in the parable of the sower. Of course a seed organizes soil into a plant, but the plant is only a portion of the soil (person).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
The Sword project now has some (all ?) of John Chrystistom's semons in commentary format. (and Augustine & Calvin) for free.

Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture is a useful resource - but expensive - that presents comments by a lot of the Fathers against each verse/periscope of scripture.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
The Sword project now has some (all ?) of John Chrystistom's semons in commentary format. (and Augustine & Calvin) for free.

Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture is a useful resource - but expensive - that presents comments by a lot of the Fathers against each verse/periscope of scripture.

Thanks, I think I will buy the book on Matthew 1-13. I can tell it's written for people that know more than me, but at least it is all together in one book.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,890
Pacific Northwest
✟732,295.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The closest I can think of is the Amplified Bible, an example of how this translation flows is as follows:

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth

As you can see it doesn't do quite what you're looking for, but rather attempts to expand upon the meaning of the source language by amplifying it in English. In the offered example, it expands/amplifies on the Hebrew bara' (usually translated in Genesis 1:1 as "created") by showing some of the nuances. Bara' means "to fatten" or fill, to form, or to fashion; the Amplified Bible captures some of this by amplifying the English rendering.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
The closest I can think of is the Amplified Bible, an example of how this translation flows is as follows:

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth

As you can see it doesn't do quite what you're looking for, but rather attempts to expand upon the meaning of the source language by amplifying it in English. In the offered example, it expands/amplifies on the Hebrew bara' (usually translated in Genesis 1:1 as "created") by showing some of the nuances. Bara' means "to fatten" or fill, to form, or to fashion; the Amplified Bible captures some of this by amplifying the English rendering.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks. I tried looking up the amplified translation of the Wheat and the Tares but it didn't seem to have the option I'm looking for. I think what goes to hell is the bad teachings and the fruits of those bad teachings instead of the bad people.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thanks. I tried looking up the amplified translation of the Wheat and the Tares but it didn't seem to have the option I'm looking for. I think what goes to hell is the bad teachings and the fruits of those bad teachings instead of the bad people.

Matt 13:38-39a: ὁ δὲ ἀγρός ἐστιν ὁ κόσμος (The field is the Cosmos), τὸ δὲ καλὸν σπέρμα, οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ υἱοὶ τῆς βασιλείας (and the good seeds, those are the sons of the Kingdom). τὰ δὲ ζιζάνιά εἰσιν οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ πονηροῦ (The weeds are the sons of the evil one) ὁ δὲ ἐχθρὸς ὁ σπείρας αὐτά ἐστιν ὁ διάβολος (and the enemy who sowed them is the devil).

I can't see how υἱοὶ (sons) can refer to anything other than people here.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Matt 13:38-39a: ὁ δὲ ἀγρός ἐστιν ὁ κόσμος (The field is the Cosmos), τὸ δὲ καλὸν σπέρμα, οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ υἱοὶ τῆς βασιλείας (and the good seeds, those are the sons of the Kingdom). τὰ δὲ ζιζάνιά εἰσιν οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ πονηροῦ (The weeds are the sons of the evil one) ὁ δὲ ἐχθρὸς ὁ σπείρας αὐτά ἐστιν ὁ διάβολος (and the enemy who sowed them is the devil).

I can't see how υἱοὶ (sons) can refer to anything other than people here.

I was hoping it might refer to sons more figuratively. Like a person might say Microsoft is the child of Bill Gates. So I could say genocide is the child of the devil.

So burning up the tares is washing the evil out of our hearts and the evil deeds and the evil teachings so only the good things are left. Every human has some good in them. That's what I want the parable to say.
 
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟17,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I have certain ideas that don't match with the standard interpretation of some things (in particular the Wheat and Tares parable). I suspect that I could redo the translation from Greek to make the parable say what I think it should say.

Is there a version of the bible where each word has all possible translations of that word in parentheses or something?

Another method might be to look at very early sermons about this parable by Greek-speaking priests to see if any of them understood the parable the way I think it should be understood.

If we accept that the authors of the bible were inspired by God to write the texts we have in Scripture and that Scripture is an authoritative source for understanding who God is and his desires for us, then our goal is to understand what the inspired author intended to say. Drawing out the authors intended meaning is called exegesis. Taking your preconceived ideas about what the text "should" say and then trying to insert those meanings into the text of the bible is called eisegesis and it is always wrong to approach Scripture in this way.

While legitimate variances in bible translations do exist, they are limited to only a few possibilities because they need to be supported by both the grammar and vocabulary of the original texts and the historical context in which those texts were originally received. Here are two of the tools that are used by scholars involved in bible translation.

1) Critical editions of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.
For Hebrew, the most common critical texts used today are the BHS/BHQ. The BHS is the accepted standard today and it includes as a base text the Hebrew/Aramaic of the Leningrad Codex with an apparatus at the bottom of the page listing all of the major variances found in other Hebrew texts and in ancient translations like the Greek LXX and Aramaic Targums. The BHQ is a multi volume critical edition that is not yet complete. It includes a similar critical text when opening the volume from right to left (Hebrew direction) and a brief critical commentary when opening the volume left to right (English direction).

For Greek, the most common critical texts are the NA27 and UBS4. They both contain a composite Greek text that represents the most likely original reading of the Greek text. And like the Hebrew critical texts, they include an apparatus at the bottom of each page that lists all of the significant variant texts found in other Greek manuscripts and in ancient translations of the Greek i.e. Latin, Coptic, etc....

2) Critical commentaries (as someone else mentioned in this thread).
These begin by discussing the variant readings found in different passages and the significance of each variant reading. These volumes will also spend time dealing with archeological discoveries related to the text and cultural information that comes from non-biblical writings that may impact the interpretation of the biblical text i.e. this could include historical information that may bring clarity to a text, or evidence for idioms that might otherwise not be understood, etc...

In order for a bible translator to legitimately propose a new translation for a passage in Scripture; they need to be able to show evidence for that translation. This would include demonstrating that the Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic grammar should be understood differently, or that a variant reading of the text found in another ancient source represents a vorlage (unknown variant text in the original langauge), or that internal textual evidence suggests a vorlage. The textual evidence, both biblical and non-biblical, as well as any other evidence for these changes needs to be referenced so that other scholars can verify the variant reading as legitimate before it is adopted into a bible translation.

The requirements for accepting alternative translations on any legitimate bible translation committee, like those committees that translated the NIV, ESV, NASB, NRSV, etc... because the goal is to produce a bible that communicates the intended meaning of the inspired author. With that goal in mind, we cannot produce a bible with any meaning we want; we are limited only to the meanings that are grammatically and culturally possible within the context of the time period, geographical location, and people group in which the author lived.


Please put your effort into finding out what the meaning of the text really is rather than trying to insert your meaning into the text. The message of the bible is life changing because it was given to us by the giver of life himself. What he said is far more important than what we think.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
If we accept that the authors of the bible were inspired by God to write the texts we have in Scripture and that Scripture is an authoritative source for understanding who God is and his desires for us, then our goal is to understand what the inspired author intended to say. Drawing out the authors intended meaning is called exegesis. Taking your preconceived ideas about what the text "should" say and then trying to insert those meanings into the text of the bible is called eisegesis and it is always wrong to approach Scripture in this way.
...

What if after all the careful work of translation that you describe the parable seems to say things which contradict my understanding and hopes? Paul in Romans said that the law is written on men's hearts, so if a careful translation sounds wrong to my heart then isn't it reasonable for me to suspect a mistake somewhere?

The parable of "the wheat and the tares" is the example that bothers me right now.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟17,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What if after all the careful work of translation that you describe the parable seems to say things which contradict my understanding and hopes? Paul in Romans said that the law is written on men's hearts, so if a careful translation sounds wrong to my heart then isn't it reasonable for me to suspect a mistake somewhere?

The parable of "the wheat and the tares" is the example that bothers me right now.

The bible describes the heart as desperately wicked. When all evidence suggests a meaning different than what our heart wants then it would be wise to remember that our heart can often be untrustworthy. If we find ourselves needing to choose between God's word and our heart the wise choice is to trust his word.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
cloudyday2 said:
What if after all the careful work of translation that you describe the parable seems to say things which contradict my understanding and hopes? Paul in Romans said that the law is written on men's hearts, so if a careful translation sounds wrong to my heart then isn't it reasonable for me to suspect a mistake somewhere?

The parable of "the wheat and the tares" is the example that bothers me right now.

Scripture is there precisely to challenge what we already think, for the very reason that our hearts lead us astray.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Scripture is there precisely to challenge what we already think, for the very reason that our hearts lead us astray.

O.k. I ordered the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scriptures for Matthew 1-13 that you suggested. I'll see how that goes.
 
Upvote 0

benelchi

INACTIVE
Aug 3, 2011
693
140
✟17,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
O.k. I ordered the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scriptures for Matthew 1-13 that you suggested. I'll see how that goes.

The Ancient Christian Commentary series is one of my favorite works on the writings of the early church. If you want to understand what the church in the first few centuries believed, it is a great resource. Additionally, the translation of the Greek and Latin, unlike most early church volumes, is a new recent translation that makes reading much easier. However, the early church writings spend little time dealing with the issues of Greek in the NT because they already new Greek and were reasonably familiar with the culture.

For a modern commentary that does deal with both the text and the underlying langauge when further explanation is needed, I would recommend the New American commentary series. In this particular passage, there are no issues related to the translation from Greek that the author felt needed to be address.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
The Ancient Christian Commentary series is one of my favorite works on the writings of the early church. If you want to understand what the church in the first few centuries believed, it is a great resource. Additionally, the translation of the Greek and Latin, unlike most early church volumes, is a new recent translation that makes reading much easier. However, the early church writings spend little time dealing with the issues of Greek in the NT because they already new Greek and were reasonably familiar with the culture.

For a modern commentary that does deal with both the text and the underlying langauge when further explanation is needed, I would recommend the New American commentary series. In this particular passage, there are no issues related to the translation from Greek that the author felt needed to be address.

Thanks, another thing I read in a book (I think it was "The Mountain of Silence: A Search for Orthodox Spirituality" by Markides.)

There are three stages of Christian: slave of God, employee of God, and friend of God. According to the book, we need to understand the audience that Jesus is speaking to in different passages of the bible because His message is different depending on the stage of the audience.

The whole "free will" issue seems silly to me. I can just see Jesus telling the atheist "well, sorry I must respect your desire to burn in hell for eternity where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". That's not a choice. This wheat and tares parable is even worse because it seems to imply that certain people are simply predestined to burn in hell.
 
Upvote 0