Now’s the Time To End Tax Exemptions for Religious Institutions

AvilaSurfer

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frenchdefense

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Ok,

Let's do some enlightening here.
First of all the tax exception on churches is a privilege given to them by the Federal Government, this is most definitely not a right somehow given to the in the Constitution.

Second, it's relatively new and was granted to them for tactical political reasons in the 1950's in exchange for churches not participating in directly political activities and basically having pastors surrender the free speech right from the pulpit. This was, imo, a devils bargain on both sides.

As you might imagine there is a bunch of court cases on this.

Anyway:

The primary reason you see a movement to remove the tax exempt status is because a bunch of churches (of various tradition) seem to think they have a right to this exemption and have been openly violating the Johnson Amendment (the law that gave them the tax break)

Strictly for a legal standpoint my position is this:

Pretty much every church in America is in violation of the Johnson Amendment, it's time to start tax them again.
 
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AvilaSurfer

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Ok,

Let's do some enlightening here.
First of all the tax exception on churches is a privilege given to them by the Federal Government, this is most definitely not a right somehow given to the in the Constitution.

Second, it's relatively new and was granted to them for tactical political reasons in the 1950's in exchange for churches not participating in directly political activities and basically having pastors surrender the free speech right from the pulpit. This was, imo, a devils bargain on both sides.

As you might imagine there is a bunch of court cases on this.

Anyway:

The primary reason you see a movement to remove the tax exempt status is because a bunch of churches (of various tradition) seem to think they have a right to this exemption and have been openly violating the Johnson Amendment (the law that gave them the tax break)

Strictly for a legal standpoint my position is this:

Pretty much every church in America is in violation of the Johnson Amendment, it's time to start tax them again.

Blah blah blah.....not gonna happen.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Ok, take the tax exempt status off - and let the Churches speak freely on whom they feel should be in government without reprise.
And continue to preach God's law in respect to those who oppose it in the elections.
So ok - have at it. :thumbsup:
 
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WarriorAngel

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That aside..

Quote*
Churches, as nonprofit organizations, are exempt from taxes not because of the public benefits that churches provide, although that is also a reason for exemption. Rather, it is their very existence as non-profit entities that justifies church tax exemption. Taxation naturally applies to profit-makers, the generators of revenue upon which government depends. In his book, Why Churches Should Not Pay Taxes, Dean Kelley makes a powerful argument. He states, “Other entities, which are not in the wealth producing category to begin with [such as churches], do not need to explain why they are not taxed any more than do the birds of the air or the rivers that flow to the sea. . . . [Taxation] would be pointless, since they are not in any meaningful sense producers of wealth.”

In fact, taxing such nonprofits discourages their existence and amounts to double taxation. All citizens, whether or not involved in a church or other nonprofit, are taxed on their individual incomes. As Kelley notes again, “To tax them again for participation in voluntary organizations from which they derive no monetary gain would be ‘double taxation’ indeed, and would effectively serve to discourage them from devoting time, money, and energy to organizations which contribute to the up building of the fabric of democracy.”
*Unquote

http://blog.speakupmovement.org/church/churches-and-politics/should-churches-be-taxed/
 
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Tallguy88

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Ok,

Let's do some enlightening here.
First of all the tax exception on churches is a privilege given to them by the Federal Government, this is most definitely not a right somehow given to the in the Constitution.

Second, it's relatively new and was granted to them for tactical political reasons in the 1950's in exchange for churches not participating in directly political activities and basically having pastors surrender the free speech right from the pulpit. This was, imo, a devils bargain on both sides.

As you might imagine there is a bunch of court cases on this.

Anyway:

The primary reason you see a movement to remove the tax exempt status is because a bunch of churches (of various tradition) seem to think they have a right to this exemption and have been openly violating the Johnson Amendment (the law that gave them the tax break)

Strictly for a legal standpoint my position is this:

Pretty much every church in America is in violation of the Johnson Amendment, it's time to start tax them again.
How do most churches violate the agreement?
 
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SolomonVII

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I think it's immature to respond as such but lol! this person actually thinks the government will pick up the reigns if faith based charities taper off? of course, if it still follows the path of taxing everyone and everything to oblivion, then I take it back.
Government takes over the task that the charities perform, create well-paying union jobs to ensure a pool of future voters, and then the cut backs and rationalization of costs begin.
It is mostly a Ponzi scheme which works as long as their is an endless supply of tax payers to do the pay offs. Government is especially good at it too, because they own the mint to create more money.
 
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FlaviusAetius

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The tax exemption should stay only because the American voters voice is absolutely meaningless.

When Prop 8 passed what happened? They used the courts to overrule it and the will of the majority.

When you vote Republican what happens? Abortion subsidizes are postponed for a single term but the Republicans do nothing to actually end the practice because all humans are worthless garbage who need the ability to kill their unwanted child legally.
 
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frenchdefense

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The tax exemption should stay only because the American voters voice is absolutely meaningless.

When Prop 8 passed what happened? They used the courts to overrule it and the will of the majority.

When you vote Republican what happens? Abortion subsidizes are postponed for a single term but the Republicans do nothing to actually end the practice because all humans are worthless garbage who need the ability to kill their unwanted child legally.

Geez FA lighten up
 
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FlaviusAetius

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It's an issue for me to be taught the importance of the democratic process only to find out most of the time your vote doesn't matter.

All the more true about any issues the Church might preach against or for on the pulpit. Since Church teaching seemingly are inherently unamerican I'd prefer more parishes existing do too the tax break over allowing priests to talk politics and waste our time telling followers to vote for impotent Republican policies.
 
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WarriorAngel

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It's an issue for me to be taught the importance of the democratic process only to find out most of the time your vote doesn't matter.

All the more true about any issues the Church might preach against or for on the pulpit. Since Church teaching seemingly are inherently unamerican I'd prefer more parishes existing do too the tax break over allowing priests to talk politics and waste our time telling followers to vote for impotent Republican policies.
Nothing was done when votes for Romney kept coming up as Obama.
Nothing was done when in PA votes for a republican came up as democrat.
It's cheating and denying the ppl their voice.
 
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frenchdefense

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Nothing was done when votes for Romney kept coming up as Obama.
Nothing was done when in PA votes for a republican came up as democrat.
It's cheating and denying the ppl their voice.

I'd be seriously interested on seeing something resembling proof on this.
 
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WarriorAngel

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We already did that - during election time.
Didnt you hear about it?
Well, that amongst other violations occurred the last presidential election.
Sorry you werent made aware.
 
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Davidnic

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I think the most compelling argument to keep the exemption is in what the court has already said. The power to tax is the power to destroy. The tax exempt status helps keep the separation of Church and state. If tax exemption is removed from those who do not agree with the government then exemption will only be given to those who agree...that is very close to state approve expression. And no one should want that. Churches being tax exempt allows them to perform many services that the government would have to take on themselves. And that is not really possible. So the exemption serves a secular purpose.

But we have to also look at the realities of a pluralistic nation. Many places do abuse the Johnston amendment. Churches have been endorsing candidates. And they can not. They can teach what they teach and let people understand what that means. But they can not preach directly who to elect. Many do. This is a problem.

This does not mean they can not directly oppose the ideas of a specific candidate if that candidate expresses them. But they can not promote one person or set of people.

But the power to tax or threaten tax or give tax exemption as reward is a dangerous thing. It could indeed, on the Christian end, create a slate of vaguely Christian Churches with tax exemption who are in line with a state But that is actually not the most likely thing. If many start to lose exemption someone will bring a case that the Establishment Clause is being violated because enforcing it in that way unduly favors some faiths over others. Taking some away but leaving others would fail O'Connors "Endorsement Test" since in the mind of most reasonable observers picking and choosing who gets exemption based on belief would be very close to implicit endorsement.

So the far more likely thing, if it ever happens is that all tax exemptions are removed, even from those Churches who support abortion and things Catholics do not. If even the spectre of that was raised I think the push from left and right to stop it would be too large to ignore.

So personally I think the exemption serves a valuable function and should stay. But there needs to be stricter enforcement of the Johnston Amendment. Churches should teach and be upfront and direct with their teachings and guide their adherents in applying them. But they should not become political endorsement machines. And some do indeed do that.

This battle will be fought in the next decade or so. And it is entirely possible that some places, by being aggressive and involving themselves too much in politics, will shoot all faiths in the collective foot. That is not to say people can not and should not live their faiths in the public square. But that has to be done as a collection of individuals who stand for what they believe. it can not be done by method of endorsement of or attack on specific candidates by religious organizations. That will just give more openings to make the argument against exemption.
 
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