Not struggling, but curious to hear a theist point of view.

[DwarfJuggler]

So... just hypothetically.

Suppose an evil being defiant against your god, and apparently powerful enough to manipulate man, was around. Don't you suppose it could be possible to manipulate man to modify a couple words in the bible, namely heaven and hell. Suppose those two were switched, and when you're at the pearly gates and you're asked where you'd like to go... And you say heaven. Meanwhile heaven is the today known Hell wouldn't that be a dastardly evil plan for a evil being to commit? And to further add to the evil he could add in a line saying that the bible can not be manipulated/changed etc to further cement his evil plan.

Now I was never a theist nor have the desire to be. But when I first started learning about the bible and reading (slowly...) through it. This is the first thing that dawned on me. And you can add even more that to "give" god power you need to go to his domain when you pass, and as such you can argue further that the reason life seems more bleak and leading to this "end of days" scenario (for the hundredth time) is because of Satan's trick to lure you to his domain giving him more power to change the world for worse.


But that was just one thought umongst many that I have had that would be so easy to manipulate the bible to make control the believers.

Like if you were confused about why we don't live 500+ years. Well add in the line that god said we can't. And there you go problem solved.

But yes just my view point using critical thinking against a book that was formulated by man, and not even Jesus himself. And man is apparently easily swayed by sin and corruption like Judas... and the bible was put together years after such a religious icon of Jesus was around to help make people more pious. Which could further add to the corruptibility of the bible in my opinion.

Again though not trying to start a theist/atheist war on here, was just curious what justification will be used to claim that it wouldn't be possible.

And just another curious thing... If god is all knowing and all powerful why couldn't he punish the bad himself rather than allow an evil entity to try and manipulate and sway us "off the path" and torture us. Surely a rational god would create limitations instead of letting evil run rampant on his creations and creating this good vs evil "war" between angels and demons that apparently (up to interpretation) will happen in revelations? the whole 4 horsemen apocalypse stuff. (haven't read all of it yet... it's a ... very slow read.)

Good luck to you and yours,
Derek.

 

[razeontherock]

Surely a rational God would create limitations instead of letting evil run rampant on his creations and creating this good vs evil "war"

He did create limitations. US. We are the ones destined to not let evil run rampant. We are born into war between light and darkness; no choice about that. G-d asks us to choose Life, but allows us the choice.

Are you hell-bent on making the wrong choice? It's not an issue of semantics, as your post started out presuming. There is no secret password; not even a handshake. It's about relationship.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

The problem with your logic is Christians don't simply read the Bible and then suddenly change their entire way of thinking and living based on the simple act of reading. There is an experience associated with salvation that is undeniable to the Christian (but refuted by unbelievers who have not had said experience). It is these experiences and changes in a Christians life that testifies to the truth represented in the Bible, is it not blind faith that atheists believe it to be. If that was the case Christianity would have died long, long ago.

 

[aiki]

Suppose an evil being defiant against your god, and apparently powerful enough to manipulate man, was around. Don't you suppose it could be possible to manipulate man to modify a couple words in the bible, namely heaven and hell. Suppose those two were switched, and when you're at the pearly gates and you're asked where you'd like to go... And you say heaven. Meanwhile heaven is the today known Hell wouldn't that be a dastardly evil plan for a evil being to commit? And to further add to the evil he could add in a line saying that the bible can not be manipulated/changed etc to further cement his evil plan.

Uh, why wouldn't God, whose word the Bible is, guard it against just such corruption? What possible use would His Word be to us if He didn't preserve it so that it communicated to us exactly what He wanted it to communicate? What kind of a God could not prevent the interference of the "evil being" of which you write? If God is truly God, then no "defiant evil being" will be able to corrupt His sacred, eternal Word as you imagine.

Now I was never a theist nor have the desire to be. But when I first started learning about the bible and reading (slowly...) through it. This is the first thing that dawned on me.

The first thing that dawned on you was a hypothetical fantasy? Interesting...

And you can add even more that to "give" god power you need to go to his domain when you pass, and as such you can argue further that the reason life seems more bleak and leading to this "end of days" scenario (for the hundredth time) is because of Satan's trick to lure you to his domain giving him more power to change the world for worse.

You give Satan too much credit and God not enough. God made Satan; they are not equals fighting over the spoils of the Earth. Satan hasn't the power to disrupt God's plans any more than an ant has the power to disrupt the passing of the sun across the sky.

But that was just one thought umongst many that I have had that would be so easy to manipulate the bible to make control the believers.

If not for God, you might be right.

But yes just my view point using critical thinking against a book that was formulated by man, and not even Jesus himself.

But there is nothing truly critical in what you've written so far. You've simply shared a bunch of "what ifs" without any basis in fact for support. Critical thinking carefully analyzes and weighs all available evidence before coming to a conclusion. You, though, have simply resorted to imagination and pre-existing prejudice for your "critical" thoughts.

The Bible is too unique, to potent a book to be "just another book." Completely apart from its spiritual content, if you actually knew anything about its construction, its historical value, and its literary depth, you would recognize its singular quality even as many secular scholars do. This doesn't necessarily prove the Bible is the Word of God, but it does give very serious weight to the claim.

And man is apparently easily swayed by sin and corruption like Judas...

And so?

and the bible was put together years after such a religious icon of Jesus was around to help make people more pious.

And so?

Which could further add to the corruptibility of the bible in my opinion.

How so? And why should your opinion be taken seriously?

And just another curious thing... If god is all knowing and all powerful why couldn't he punish the bad himself rather than allow an evil entity to try and manipulate and sway us "off the path" and torture us.

"Punish the bad"? The bad what?

Surely a rational god would create limitations instead of letting evil run rampant on his creations and creating this good vs evil "war" between angels and demons that apparently (up to interpretation) will happen in revelations? the whole 4 horsemen apocalypse stuff. (haven't read all of it yet... it's a ... very slow read.)

Why can't God do as He likes? He's God after all.

And do you really think what you think is rational and what God knows is rational are the same thing? Can you take into account all that God does in making His decisions?


Selah.

 

[bling]

You have an unusual imagination. You need to think about more constructive things.

 

[DwarfJuggler]

"why would god not protect the writing"

Well to do so would violate free will. He'd be telling people to make sure it's right, and would probably threaten hell onto them if they don't. This violates free will.

Did god himself write the book no.
Does Satan have this same limitation of not manipulating free will or prodding people to do things his way? no.
So Satan would naturally have a more influential pull on changing the bible than that of God as God said he would not go against free will and God is unchanging.

"first thing dawned interesting thing."

Yeah it was the first thing because I realistically viewed it as an ancient form of the telephone game. People are flawed and as so stories are changed. And if there's apparently this evil force manipulating people as well all the more reason to be suspicious of credibility.

"You give Satan too much credit and God not enough. God made Satan; they are not equals fighting over the spoils of the Earth. Satan hasn't the power to disrupt God's plans any more than an ant has the power to disrupt the passing of the sun across the sky."

Then why is there this whole "left behind" fiasco where god essentially pulls out and takes his believers with him letting havoc run rampant on earth? If god was powerful enough why would he even keep Satan around to try and manipulate us? He seems just as capable as killing and allowing torture to happen in his name so why not have this hell with out a Satan and just send the souls down?

"But there is nothing truly critical in what you've written so far. You've simply shared a bunch of "what ifs" without any basis in fact for support. Critical thinking carefully analyzes and weighs all available evidence before coming to a conclusion. You, though, have simply resorted to imagination and pre-existing prejudice for your "critical" thoughts.

The Bible is too unique, to potent a book to be "just another book." Completely apart from its spiritual content, if you actually knew anything about its construction, its historical value, and its literary depth, you would recognize its singular quality even as many secular scholars do. This doesn't necessarily prove the Bible is the Word of God, but it does give very serious weight to the claim."

I never claimed anything I said actually happened, more that it could have and therefore the credibility of the bible is false. As you're equally doing what ifs in contrast. What if Satan manipulated it, what if god prevented it, what if Satan added that line about not being able to manipulate it, etc etc. There's no evidence either way that suggests anything in the book is real. I was simply referring critical thinking to the idea that it's completely dependent on blind faith that it wasn't changed either by corrupt man or supernatural evil entities.

"Punish the bad"? The bad what?"

thought it evident enough... See heaven = good hell = bad/evil furthermore I mentioned an evil entity trying to stray us off our path. Should have been an easy conclusion that i was referring to bad/sinner souls

And of course I wouldn't be able to take into account the mindset of an omnipotent being. But being as blinded and lacking the infinite knowledge of god and be able to propose a more efficient manner, and it would be, to punish people would make it seem ridiculous that an all powerful all knowing being established it in the first place.

Or is it more efficient to have someone trying to lure your followers away and make them sin with demons and all that mumbo jumbo. And to allow him to punish them. (which realistically why would he punish them? He'd take that away from God for himself. If there really is this apparent war between light and dark why would he torture his army it'd make more sense for him to point out the fallacy of the whole system and recruit them to fight the light.)

As for the whole intervention/divine experience situation. The human mind is greatly capable of misinterpreting what we see. Just look at the whole moth man eye witness testimonies or alien abduction testimonies. I'm sure you disbelieve them but why? If you believe your divine intervention, or vision is any more credible than their story, it's only because you have a group of people wanting to believe you as it would be "proof" in their mind that god really does exist.

We twist reality to fit our own delusions. Like for instance I could be dead right now if we were not 10 seconds behind a tree branch falling in front of us while driving. Do I account it as intervention of God striking that branch down earlier than he could have? Of course not. Do I say thank you god for making me wake up 10 seconds later that day? Of course not. Things happen, when you apply a who then you stop using the critical thinking all together. You instantly assert God onto your life not ending then. Meanwhile when people die you often claim "it was his time." As if to lessen the burden of losing them or trying to console them by saying some superficial entity had a plan for him in heaven.

But.... Seeing as it's pretty much entirely improbable anyone will rationally look at their belief system and question it I'll just ask one last question.


Should church and state be separate?

If you answer no I may have another comment It's an annoyance we atheist have when no matter how much we try to get people to think rationally and objectively and show them that believing a god and afterlife is just to alleviate the fears of dieing they still revert back to that damn five letter word of "Faith."

 

[salida]

I suggest you research the credibility of the bible concerning overwhelming evidence which is very high more than any religious or nonreligious book-even though it’s a spiritual decision first. Do your research and homework concerning the bible rather than assuming its false. Some info to start below.

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/

I suggest you research the credibility of the bible concerning overwhelming evidence which is very high even though it’s a spiritual decision first.
Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel a former athiest. Christiananswers.net, www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/


And visit the website Reasonable Faith-Bill Craig is a great debater and started this site, in fact Richard Dawkins the famous athiest is afraid to debate him. You have to register but its worth it if your interested.

Your mentioning situations that have no evidence.

More info. on why I believe:

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago; some scholars think 3000 years ago)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[aiki]

"why would god not protect the writing"

Well to do so would violate free will. He'd be telling people to make sure it's right, and would probably threaten hell onto them if they don't. This violates free will.

Uh, what? I'd think a God who was omnipotent could preserve His Word without forcing people to "make sure its right." The situation you imagine above is by no means the sole way in which God could protect His Word from corruption so preserving His Word does not necessarily require the violation of free will.

Did god himself write the book no.

In a very real sense, the Bible tells us that He did. When a man dictates a letter to his secretary and she writes his words out for him do we say that the secretary is the author of the letter? No. In the same way, the Scriptures tell us that God inspired the contents of the Bible, imparting the words written on its pages by His Spirit to the men who did the actual writing.

Does Satan have this same limitation of not manipulating free will or prodding people to do things his way? no.

God supercedes human free will any time it serves Him to do so. For instance, no one wants to go to hell, but many will end up there anyway. Human free will is not inviolate.

So Satan would naturally have a more influential pull on changing the bible than that of God as God said he would not go against free will and God is unchanging.

Where did God say He would not "go against free will"? How could an omnipotent all-knowing God have less influence than the devil over anything?

Yeah it was the first thing because I realistically viewed it as an ancient form of the telephone game. People are flawed and as so stories are changed. And if there's apparently this evil force manipulating people as well all the more reason to be suspicious of credibility.

It strikes me as very odd and inconsistent of you to trust what the Bible says about the devil and then use this information as the basis for your speculations about the trustworthiness of the Bible. If the Bible is so untrustworthy, how can you trust what it says about the devil? Do you see how confused this is?

Then why is there this whole "left behind" fiasco where god essentially pulls out and takes his believers with him letting havoc run rampant on earth?

Read the Bible and find out.

If god was powerful enough why would he even keep Satan around to try and manipulate us? He seems just as capable as killing and allowing torture to happen in his name so why not have this hell with out a Satan and just send the souls down?

Again, read the Bible and you'll find out.

I never claimed anything I said actually happened, more that it could have and therefore the credibility of the bible is false.

How does this work, exactly? If I'm an eyewitness to a murder and tell a jury exactly what happened, and then the defense lawyer stands up and says, "It could have happened some other way!" is my testimony thereby rendered completely false? Hardly. Simply suggesting a possible alternative does not constitute a successful refutation of my testimony.

There's no evidence either way that suggests anything in the book is real.

Oh, there's plenty of reality in the Bible. Archaeologists have used the Bible as a primary source for their work in the Middle East for a long time. Names, dates and places have been proved accurate over and over again. And this lends powerful credence to those things we encounter in the Bible that are miraculous.

Should church and state be separate?

Yes. But having said that I don't think the morality and values espoused by Christians should not be represented politically.

Selah.

 

[kenblaster5000]

So... just hypothetically.

Suppose an evil being defiant against your god, and apparently powerful enough to manipulate man, was around. Don't you suppose it could be possible to manipulate man to modify a couple words in the bible, namely heaven and hell. Suppose those two were switched, and when you're at the pearly gates and you're asked where you'd like to go... And you say heaven. Meanwhile heaven is the today known Hell wouldn't that be a dastardly evil plan for a evil being to commit? And to further add to the evil he could add in a line saying that the bible can not be manipulated/changed etc to further cement his evil plan.

I just heard the other day that a wicked man owns the rights to the NIV bible and has changed one verse in Isaiah that gives the devil the title of Jesus Christ, the Morning Star. The printing of the bible can be corrupted. I am not worried about it though. If you think you are going to be disobedient to the gospel and go to heaven, you are misled.

Now I was never a theist nor have the desire to be. But when I first started learning about the bible and reading (slowly...) through it. This is the first thing that dawned on me. And you can add even more that to "give" god power you need to go to his domain when you pass, and as such you can argue further that the reason life seems more bleak and leading to this "end of days" scenario (for the hundredth time) is because of Satan's trick to lure you to his domain giving him more power to change the world for worse.

You sound like you are playing it by ear. I am glad to see you are in the word. The only thing is it is really not going to make sense until the Holy Spirit removes the veil through Jesus Christ. The veil over the old testament is taken away by Christ. The veil is a lot like Moses when His face shone after being with God. When the veil is taken away, how much more glorious will we shine in the light of the gospel as opposed to the law that is not as glorious.

But that was just one thought umongst many that I have had that would be so easy to manipulate the bible to make control the believers.

What about the father of lies the devil that deceives the world and has them in bondage?

Like if you were confused about why we don't live 500+ years. Well add in the line that god said we can't. And there you go problem solved.

I am not confused. God said it and no one since then especially quite recently has lived over 120 years.

But yes just my view point using critical thinking against a book that was formulated by man, and not even Jesus himself. And man is apparently easily swayed by sin and corruption like Judas... and the bible was put together years after such a religious icon of Jesus was around to help make people more pious. Which could further add to the corruptibility of the bible in my opinion.

How do you suppose you will think critically about a book you just began reading? I cannot make myself righteous. This is called self-righteousness which is considered filthy rags to God. He had to send His Son to pay the penalty for our sin, bleed, be crucified, so that the blood could pay so that we might become the righteousness of God. Not by our own works. You should examine yourself to recognize the corruptibility of yourself. As for Judas, do you not think that dilemma exists in the world today? Sell out Jesus for silver instead of crucifying your flesh. He called Jesus Lord but not master. Judas thought he might have a better way and did not respect or reverence Him.

Again though not trying to start a theist/atheist war on here, was just curious what justification will be used to claim that it wouldn't be possible.And just another curious thing... If god is all knowing and all powerful why couldn't he punish the bad himself rather than allow an evil entity to try and manipulate and sway us "off the path" and torture us. Surely a rational god would create limitations instead of letting evil run rampant on his creations and creating this good vs evil "war" between angels and demons that apparently (up to interpretation) will happen in revelations? the whole 4 horsemen apocalypse stuff. (haven't read all of it yet... it's a ... very slow read.)

Good luck to you and yours,
Derek.

Derek, I commend you on reading the bible. I started reading it about 14 years ago, arrogantly thinking I might prove it wrong. I failed and hopefully you will fail also and find a great book that is full of life and light. I wish God did not create an angel that rebelled against Him, wanting to exhalt his own throne above God. I do not know why God allowed it. I could only say that God wants a creation that is loyal to Him and not robotically. We have a choice to make God our master or the devil our master. The devil has a short time and hates God's creation and is doomed already, so he is trying to take as many with him as possible. God gives us the authority to stomp upon the devil in Jesus name. We are to put him beneath our feet. Submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


Anyhow, I will be around for any other bizarre questions. I will do the best I can, but I just hope they are a bit sober next time. May you grow in understanding, discernment, and wisdom.

Bless.

 

[DwarfJuggler]

Hey... I had a reply I really did. But this dastardly forum system logged me off when I had it typed up and posted. And as a result I lost the whole post. So I apologize. It's 3:30am though and I am much to tired to rethink what it was I wrote and even more so to go about writing it. So tomorrow I'll read what I wrote and how you replied and try to jot my memory. I'm going through like 3 or 4 different religious debates and it's hard not to mix them up which I'm sure you could imagine. Us atheist are just as predictable as theist when it comes to debating religion. "Oh pulling the contradictions card again" *le sigh.* etc etc.

 

[razeontherock]

Use word, cut and paste. This site has gremlins lately.

 

[DwarfJuggler]

bleh lost urge to debate... Power knocked out from tornadoesque windstorm for almost 4 days. Going to revitalize with some computer games. Been uber bored. Reading and card games only go so far.

 

[oi_antz]

DwarfJuggler, I understand you've lost your urge to debate, I still want to comment on a few of your comments, it seems that by having the point of view you have, you're being a bit unreasonable toward accepting God's point of view. God does have a point of view on every matter, if it is different from yours or mine, it is an issue that will bother us until we finally come to see His point of view and then the penny will drop and we are finally able to love Him as the awesome creator of this fantastic world we love.

Then why is there this whole "left behind" fiasco where god essentially pulls out and takes his believers with him letting havoc run rampant on earth? If god was powerful enough why would he even keep Satan around to try and manipulate us? He seems just as capable as killing and allowing torture to happen in his name so why not have this hell with out a Satan and just send the souls down?

Can you provide the scripture for this "left behind fiasco", I've probably not read that part yet. I think once time is set in motion it is impossible to stop until the results have had their effect. Think of a landslide, God doesn't stop the dirt from falling, it is when it has finished falling that it is all over, and so it will be with the issues of good and evil in our world. When the evil has finished running its course, there will be no more place for it.

I never claimed anything I said actually happened, more that it could have and therefore the credibility of the bible is false. As you're equally doing what ifs in contrast. What if Satan manipulated it, what if god prevented it, what if Satan added that line about not being able to manipulate it, etc etc. There's no evidence either way that suggests anything in the book is real. I was simply referring critical thinking to the idea that it's completely dependent on blind faith that it wasn't changed either by corrupt man or supernatural evil entities.

Well quite simply, the book belongs to God, it is His testimony of events for the whole history of the world, describing how we got to the present day and what His plans are for the future. Satan has no power over God, he has been cursed lower than any other creature.

thought it evident enough... See heaven = good hell = bad/evil furthermore I mentioned an evil entity trying to stray us off our path. Should have been an easy conclusion that i was referring to bad/sinner souls

Even athiests cry out for a God to love, I'm sure you have stored up a lot of respect for the creator of our marvelous universe. The more we learn about how perfect His creation is, the more love we heap up for Him.

We twist reality to fit our own delusions. Like for instance I could be dead right now if we were not 10 seconds behind a tree branch falling in front of us while driving. Do I account it as intervention of God striking that branch down earlier than he could have? Of course not. Do I say thank you god for making me wake up 10 seconds later that day? Of course not. Things happen, when you apply a who then you stop using the critical thinking all together. You instantly assert God onto your life not ending then. Meanwhile when people die you often claim "it was his time." As if to lessen the burden of losing them or trying to console them by saying some superficial entity had a plan for him in heaven.

It is interesting that I never had delusions as a non-believer, but since being a believer I've had some spiritual encounters which probably would have sent me to hospital if I had not had my faith in God. He has kept me safe all my life, despite that for a long time in life I was quite vocally anti-Christian.

But.... Seeing as it's pretty much entirely improbable anyone will rationally look at their belief system and question it I'll just ask one last question.

Should church and state be separate?

If you answer no I may have another comment It's an annoyance we atheist have when no matter how much we try to get people to think rationally and objectively and show them that believing a god and afterlife is just to alleviate the fears of dieing they still revert back to that damn five letter word of "Faith."

I don't see why you hate the church so much, I think it signifies something you want but can't seem to achieve, which is faith. However you do have faith, you have faith in your own ability to make sense of the world. If one day you turn your efforts to making sense of the Bible then you'll probably soften up to the church for coming to understand why the church exists.

I believe state should be independent of all religious influence including athiest, but that is an impossible task since our states are full of people with varied beliefs. It is prophesied however that God's people will eventually govern the world forever and forever.

 

[heron]

Lost posts, yeah that's annoying. Notepad helps.... copying once in a while, or just screaming after the fact.

Your OP theory is a nice stretching of limits and possibilities. But once you get out in that open area, we are also free to think that space rhinos hold us captive and plan to use us as chess pieces in a six-dimensional game. What if.

You speak about the Bible not being written by God. Imagine if we had a document that just appeared in mid-air, with a booming voice and strike of lightning. Would the next generation believe it? Would we heed it any more carefully?

Written after Jesus' ministry time... I would guess they were very busy during those times. Lol, no really.

But notice that the majority of the Bible was written before Jesus' earthly ministry. Hundreds, thousands of years before. Tested over time, over multiple authors and scribes and historians and priests.

Your original question reminds me of language differences. What is the proper way to say Lord, Maitre, Abba, El, Mon Dieu. Will God be offended if we don't use language properly, when there are roughly six thousand languages in the world?

What if Heaven meant Hell in a different language? I think you know the answer.

 

[davidsheart77]

He did create limitations. US. We are the ones destined to not let evil run rampant. We are born into war between light and darkness; no choice about that. G-d asks us to choose Life, but allows us the choice.

Are you hell-bent on making the wrong choice? It's not an issue of semantics, as your post started out presuming. There is no secret password; not even a handshake. It's about relationship.

That makes no sense whatsoever, we understand the difference between right and worng, up and down which is all still kind of relative and defined by culture race, and nation. The problem is with this whole demon, Satan and the Bible God as Israel(which that is their God by the way) tells us he is all knowing. If he is all knowing why wouldn't he stop Satan(who according to the Jewish God and muslims) started evil. If he knew that it would bring so much dishonor and pain with destruction as his sword, and let me remind you by the devil's influence according to Jewish bible, why would he allow it? for what purpose according to the bible, not real life. In real life we have laws of nature with cause and effect. In the bible it is a story of God, angels and demons at war for the souls of mankind????? So why not prevent all that if he knew, as they say? You might say for his glory! Well that is an answer that is as futile, as a man washing his body with soap trying to get clean, still wearing his winter clothes. Makes no sense whatsoever. The bible claims to possess the truth where I must say I have seen different.

 

[davidsheart77]

[

Well quite simply, the book belongs to God, it is His testimony of events for the whole history of the world, describing how we got to the present day and what His plans are for the future. Satan has no power over God, he has been cursed lower than any other creature.

Did you say Testimony of Events for the whole history of the world!!!!!Are you joking!!!! Really!!! So we came from noah after the first flood huh?? where does it honestly discuss anything other than the origins of Israel!!!? Its all Israel related every little thing all the way to the apocalypse. Don't you realize you worship a God of Israellllllllllllll? Its no different than some people getting involved in the religion of the muslims!!! it is the God of the muslims!!!!!! When you read the history book for the U. S guess what it the history of the nation and we came about and what not, that is why the declaration was not found on a specific God but rather plainly the creator. Whoever he may be who knows! The problem people have is that the Christian world, muslim etc are trying to manipulate the masses with their God, which does not even originate with them but another culture and nation. Remember your God never even considered you his child but a heathen, a GENTILE. Why becuase you were not a Jew but hey read Romans because now you are his children, but you have been adopted.Thats sad and heart breaking to proclaim that our Supreme Being does not think of us as his children unless we believe in the Jewish God. That my friend is the problem everyone has is the snotness of a God that did not even begin with you. Oh and by the way don't they say their God is not partial, that sucks.

 

[davidsheart77]

I wish God did not create an angel that rebelled against Him, wanting to exhalt his own throne above God. I do not know why God allowed it. I could only say that God wants a creation that is loyal to Him and not robotically. We have a choice to make God our master or the devil our master. The devil has a short time and hates God's creation and is doomed already, so he is trying to take as many with him as possible. God gives us the authority to stomp upon the devil in Jesus name. We are to put him beneath our feet. Submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


Really even you can't accept such a myth. What does being robotic or having freewill have anything to do with creating a rebel and have him influence his creatures. Animals are territiorial and so are we, animals are survival and so are we. Is man so insecure and have so little self-worth that he is willing to compare himself to angels and demons then to accept his glory of the earth. Its all relative what we believe is wrong in other countries its the opposite. Oh and by the way the monotheistic God of the muslims who says," God has no Son in heaven for he is all sufficient," proclaims they have the truth and you guys are doomed. I think we are in a bit of problem either way we go to hell haha. So which one is it? They also said they will have evil prophets and evil believers who try to distort the truth, Sounds like what matters is where you are born which gives you that faith. Believe in God and trust in yourself, its called confidence.

 

[oi_antz]

[

Well quite simply, the book belongs to God, it is His testimony of events for the whole history of the world, describing how we got to the present day and what His plans are for the future. Satan has no power over God, he has been cursed lower than any other creature.

Did you say Testimony of Events for the whole history of the world!!!!!Are you joking!!!! Really!!! So we came from noah after the first flood huh?? where does it honestly discuss anything other than the origins of Israel!!!? Its all Israel related every little thing all the way to the apocalypse. Don't you realize you worship a God of Israellllllllllllll? Its no different than some people getting involved in the religion of the muslims!!! it is the God of the muslims!!!!!! When you read the history book for the U. S guess what it the history of the nation and we came about and what not, that is why the declaration was not found on a specific God but rather plainly the creator. Whoever he may be who knows! The problem people have is that the Christian world, muslim etc are trying to manipulate the masses with their God, which does not even originate with them but another culture and nation. Remember your God never even considered you his child but a heathen, a GENTILE. Why becuase you were not a Jew but hey read Romans because now you are his children, but you have been adopted.Thats sad and heart breaking to proclaim that our Supreme Being does not think of us as his children unless we believe in the Jewish God. That my friend is the problem everyone has is the snotness of a God that did not even begin with you. Oh and by the way don't they say their God is not partial, that sucks.

Well you sound like there is something coming between yourself and the God of Israel, I'm not sure you really are Christian as your religion symbol says, I detect anger and hatred rather than love for the God of Israel.

As for your suggestion that the God of Israel is not supreme, it is probably a matter of opinion, as all of us who know Him will acknowledge Him as the creator and heavenly father of life. If you want to put your trust in another God, that is your own decision to make. As for me I trust the God who speaks the truth, as I have found what I regard as deception in other religions, Christianity is the one theology which provides me the truth as I need it.

For your question "why did God allow the enemy to rebel?", well the short answer is He didn't, but from the eternal-come-material POV we have right now, it is all of the following:

The rebellion has happened and God has devised a solution to the problem.
We are in the process of damage control on E=MC2.
The enemy has sweet little time left and he is furious.
You, me and every other person has an opportunity to pick a side before God gets out the big mop.

It is your choice now, who do you put your trust in (I would say to trust your heart and trust in good). Because if it weren't for the good nature of God there would be no such thing as life or love. It's your choice my friend, I've already decided which God has my pledge of loyalty.

 

[oi_antz]

I wish God did not create an angel that rebelled against Him, wanting to exhalt his own throne above God. I do not know why God allowed it. I could only say that God wants a creation that is loyal to Him and not robotically. We have a choice to make God our master or the devil our master. The devil has a short time and hates God's creation and is doomed already, so he is trying to take as many with him as possible. God gives us the authority to stomp upon the devil in Jesus name. We are to put him beneath our feet. Submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


Really even you can't accept such a myth. What does being robotic or having freewill have anything to do with creating a rebel and have him influence his creatures. Animals are territiorial and so are we, animals are survival and so are we. Is man so insecure and have so little self-worth that he is willing to compare himself to angels and demons then to accept his glory of the earth. Its all relative what we believe is wrong in other countries its the opposite. Oh and by the way the monotheistic God of the muslims who says," God has no Son in heaven for he is all sufficient," proclaims they have the truth and you guys are doomed. I think we are in a bit of problem either way we go to hell haha. So which one is it? They also said they will have evil prophets and evil believers who try to distort the truth, Sounds like what matters is where you are born which gives you that faith. Believe in God and trust in yourself, its called confidence.

I don't think we need to argue, you are clearly not seeing things from God's POV.

 

[davidsheart77]

Well you sound like there is something coming between yourself and the God of Israel, I'm not sure you really are Christian as your religion symbol says, I detect anger and hatred rather than love for the God of Israel.

As for your suggestion that the God of Israel is not supreme, it is probably a matter of opinion, as all of us who know Him will acknowledge Him as the creator and heavenly father of life. If you want to put your trust in another God, that is your own decision to make. As for me I trust the God who speaks the truth, as I have found what I regard as deception in other religions, Christianity is the one theology which provides me the truth as I need it.

For your question "why did God allow the enemy to rebel?", well the short answer is He didn't, but from the eternal-come-material POV we have right now, it is all of the following:

The rebellion has happened and God has devised a solution to the problem.
We are in the process of damage control on E=MC2.
The enemy has sweet little time left and he is furious.
You, me and every other person has an opportunity to pick a side before God gets out the big mop.

It is your choice now, who do you put your trust in (I would say to trust your heart and trust in good). Because if it weren't for the good nature of God there would be no such thing as life or love. It's your choice my friend, I've already decided which God has my pledge of loyalty.

Well of course you would think I am angry with the God Of Israel, its very typical. But you have not answered my question say, you were a king and were all knowing and had all the power in the world to prevent anything possible and yet knowing( for you are all knowing) you hired an evil advisor in your kingdom and had children who had a specific commandment according to your hand, the evil advisor knew this commandment and was evil in heart and to throw off the king would corrupt them, would you still allow this evil advisor around your children, for pain and suffering to come theirin? when you specifically know how weak your children are in their innocence. You know the evil advisors plan and still allow your children to dance around with him and his presence around your children, for what? for your glory? the entire kingdom comes to war, chaos, destruction and death, for your glory? This is the beginning concept of the God of Israel. How then is he not in fault? have you read the book of Job, job loses everything just to see if he would not curse him!!!!!! really come on!!!! Use your head.