I was reading a quote from Pope Francis that someone posted on the main OBOB forum. The quote was about marriage. In the post, the quote talked about marriage as between a man and a woman where the husband encourages the wife to become more truly feminine and the husband encourages the husband to become more truly masculine.
It struck me that perhaps he may have been thinking that by posting that he was refuting gay marriage, or even heterosexual marriages between folks who don't conform to gender norms or who don't want to become more masculine and feminine than they already are as the result of their marriage, and that anyone who feels otherwise would thus have to attack Pope Francis' words.
However, my feeling is that what Pope Francis said there is not necessarily a bad model for *some* marriages. That is what marriage can be for some people who choose it and it can be good for them. I would not argue so much with a choice mutually made by both partners to a marriage to live their lives and conduct themselves voluntarily in a way where they look to bring out certain mutually agreed qualities in each other.
Where I think perhaps the poster and I might part ways is that I don't think there should be a one size fits all model for marriage. I think lots of different types of people can get married for lots of different types of reasons and have lots of different goals or ways of strengthening their marriages that can be at variance with how other good marriages work but can be exactly right and good and holy for the two particular people in that marriage.
The key elements of marriage are mutual love (Not necessarily the emotion, but the act of giving your life to someone else and being loyal and caring toward that person) and respect, and being willing to work hard to stay compatible with your spouse and make that marriage work. Within those boundaries, there are a lot of different varying ways to go about making marriage work, and a lot of different ways of having good marriages. What is best for a couple depends on who they are individually and their joint and individual temperaments, personalities, goals and aspirations, and situation(s) in life, and to some degree is a matter of personal preference.
I think when we try to put a one size fits all framework on an institution like marriage, it results in pain and suffering for people who don't fit the norm, and thus either are not allowed to marry, or are allowed to marry and then suffer trying to fit their marriage into a mold that isn't right for the two people involved instead of into a mold that is right for their individual marriage.
And, I think, in a broader sense, as we have the discussion on this forum, which has gone on I think in several different threads, of what it means to be a liberal or progressive Catholic, perhaps one aspect of that is acknowledging that one size doesn't fit all. Not just in marriage, but in general.
Whereas as a generalization conservatives tend to be in favor of enforced conformity to social norms that are viewed as traditional in a culture or region, and want to pressure people into adopting them and rejected those who don't, liberals or progressives tend to emphasize that everyone is different and that we can embrace that diversity and love each other without all being the same, and that indeed our diversity is a strength and not a weakness, and that we self-actualize and build the strongest communities when we be the best people we can be in our own way instead of being the best copy we can be of what someone else holds up as ideal.
I'm replying here rather than there because it relates to discussions we're having here and I didn't want to sidetrack the other thread. Also, I was not sure if this would be considered an appropriate discussion for the other forum. However, of course the person who posted the original quote or indeed anyone who wants to come over here and discuss it with us is welcome to, as far as I'm concerned! The idea isn't to duck conversation, but rather to be considerate of the different sub-forum rules and not sidetrack the other guy's thread.
It struck me that perhaps he may have been thinking that by posting that he was refuting gay marriage, or even heterosexual marriages between folks who don't conform to gender norms or who don't want to become more masculine and feminine than they already are as the result of their marriage, and that anyone who feels otherwise would thus have to attack Pope Francis' words.
However, my feeling is that what Pope Francis said there is not necessarily a bad model for *some* marriages. That is what marriage can be for some people who choose it and it can be good for them. I would not argue so much with a choice mutually made by both partners to a marriage to live their lives and conduct themselves voluntarily in a way where they look to bring out certain mutually agreed qualities in each other.
Where I think perhaps the poster and I might part ways is that I don't think there should be a one size fits all model for marriage. I think lots of different types of people can get married for lots of different types of reasons and have lots of different goals or ways of strengthening their marriages that can be at variance with how other good marriages work but can be exactly right and good and holy for the two particular people in that marriage.
The key elements of marriage are mutual love (Not necessarily the emotion, but the act of giving your life to someone else and being loyal and caring toward that person) and respect, and being willing to work hard to stay compatible with your spouse and make that marriage work. Within those boundaries, there are a lot of different varying ways to go about making marriage work, and a lot of different ways of having good marriages. What is best for a couple depends on who they are individually and their joint and individual temperaments, personalities, goals and aspirations, and situation(s) in life, and to some degree is a matter of personal preference.
I think when we try to put a one size fits all framework on an institution like marriage, it results in pain and suffering for people who don't fit the norm, and thus either are not allowed to marry, or are allowed to marry and then suffer trying to fit their marriage into a mold that isn't right for the two people involved instead of into a mold that is right for their individual marriage.
And, I think, in a broader sense, as we have the discussion on this forum, which has gone on I think in several different threads, of what it means to be a liberal or progressive Catholic, perhaps one aspect of that is acknowledging that one size doesn't fit all. Not just in marriage, but in general.
Whereas as a generalization conservatives tend to be in favor of enforced conformity to social norms that are viewed as traditional in a culture or region, and want to pressure people into adopting them and rejected those who don't, liberals or progressives tend to emphasize that everyone is different and that we can embrace that diversity and love each other without all being the same, and that indeed our diversity is a strength and not a weakness, and that we self-actualize and build the strongest communities when we be the best people we can be in our own way instead of being the best copy we can be of what someone else holds up as ideal.
I'm replying here rather than there because it relates to discussions we're having here and I didn't want to sidetrack the other thread. Also, I was not sure if this would be considered an appropriate discussion for the other forum. However, of course the person who posted the original quote or indeed anyone who wants to come over here and discuss it with us is welcome to, as far as I'm concerned! The idea isn't to duck conversation, but rather to be considerate of the different sub-forum rules and not sidetrack the other guy's thread.
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