No Rapture until Judgement Day

[Douggg]

You have misread Rev 19. It does not say the bride of Christ. But it does say that the army is dressed in white robes. White robes, just like the martyrs were given in Rev 6:11.
My point still stands. This is when Christ returns, and it is with the martyrs. Not the bride of Christ.

No, I have not misread Revelation 19. The bride of Christ is the raptured/resurrected saints, which are taken out of the world before the Great Tribulation and the bowls of God's wrath are poured out on the world.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Can you please show me where it specifically says that there is a Bema seat judgement only to give rewards and it is only for the believers that are raptured? I can't think of one but maybe there is.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me,to give every man according as his work shall be.

1Thessalonaisn5:9-11
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1Corinthains15:51-54

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


1Thessalonians4:15-18

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

verse 18 is the same as 1Thessalonians5:11. Do you think your positon comforts anyone ?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I understand it is hard to follow. Normally when looking at eschatological views for a first time, they can be hard to comprehend. You could say after studying a view for a period of time, they can click if they make sense.
So please, when looking at this, try to look at it afresh without any bais. So, not as an Amillennialist or Postmillennialist or any other view. So, look at it with a fresh outlook.
Most of what is needed to know for this view is laid out in the original post.

I'm not going to change from my Amillennial view and will never agree with any premillennial view at this point. I came to believe that amillennialism is true after much study of the scripture after previously been a premillennialist. There's no going back for me.

I do believe what you have stated.
I believe that Jesus comes with the martyrs and reigns for 1000 years. Then Satan is set free for a short time and then Jesus conquers him and then judges us all at the Great White Throne judgement.

If you believe what I stated, then why wouldn't you agree with me that Matthew 25:31-46 is a portrayal of the Great White Throne judgment? Where does that passage indicate that mortals will be the ones who inherit "eternal life" in the "kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"?

Also, do you not think this:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Is the same thing as this:

Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[1Tonne]

I'm not going to change from my Amillennial view and will never agree with any premillennial view at this point. I came to believe that amillennialism is true after much study of the scripture after previously been a premillennialist. There's no going back for me.

If you are not willing, then there is no point in reading any further. People who have an open mind are willing to look at other viewpoints. If they do not agree with what is stated, then that is fine. But if they do find something that they agree with, then they may just learn something new. With a closed mind a person cannot learn. So please be open. If it does not make sense, then you can ignore it.

If you believe what I stated, then why wouldn't you agree with me that Matthew 25:31-46 is a portrayal of the Great White Throne judgment?

Sorry. I do agree with it being the Great White Throne Judgement at the very end of time. (I may have misread your post)
I believe that Jesus comes and reigns for 1000 years (with the martyrs) and then satan is set free for a short time. Then after this is the Great White Throne judgement where believers and non-believers are to give an account on the good and the bad that they have done. Then a final judgement will be made about their future.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If you are not willing, then there is no point in reading any further.

So, even though everyone else here is okay with discussing things like this even when they disagree, you have decided that you and I should not discuss this since we disagree? That's interesting.

People who have an open mind are willing to look at other viewpoints.

I had an open mind during the period of time that I studied this diligently when I believe the Holy Spirit showed me the truth about this. So, don't act as if I've never had an open mind. Sometimes we get to the point where our minds are made up and that's okay. Do you have an open mind about Jesus Christ having died and rising again from the dead or is your belief about that set in stone? I would guess your belief on that is set in stone, right? Is that a bad thing? No, right?

If they do not agree with what is stated, then that is fine. But if they do find something that they agree with, then they may just learn something new. With a closed mind a person cannot learn. So please be open. If it does not make sense, then you can ignore it.

Again, you say this as if I never had an open mind about this or as if I haven't already prayerfully studied this. I have. But, sometimes, we eventually get to the point where we become fully convinced of something and our minds are made up. Right? And that's okay. Right?

Sorry. I do agree with it being the Great White Throne Judgement at the very end of time. (I may have misread your post)

Okay, I'm glad we can agree on that then. But, what does it indicate about the timing of what is described in Matthew 25:31-46? It says it will occur when Jesus comes with His angels, right? Is that not a description of the second coming of Christ? I believe it clearly is. Yet, if it's describing the Great White Throne Judgement, as we both believe it is, then we both know that occurs AFTER the thousand years and not before. So, help me understand why you apparently do not believe that what is described in Matthew 25:31-46 will not happen when Jesus comes with His angels at His second coming.

I believe that Jesus comes and reigns for 1000 years (with the martyrs) and then satan is set free for a short time. Then after this is the Great White Throne judgement where believers and non-believers are to give an account on the good and the bad that they have done. Then a final judgement will be made about their future.

Where is this scenario indicated in Matthew 25:31-46, though?

 

[Douggg]

So, even though everyone else here is okay with discussing things like this even when they disagree, you have decided that you and I should not discuss this since we disagree? That's interesting.


I had an open mind during the period of time that I studied this diligently when I believe the Holy Spirit showed me the truth about this. So, don't act as if I've never had an open mind. Sometimes we get to the point where our minds are made up and that's okay. Do you have an open mind about Jesus Christ having died and rising again from the dead or is your belief about that set in stone? I would guess your belief on that is set in stone, right? Is that a bad thing? No, right?


Again, you say this as if I never had an open mind about this or as if I haven't already prayerfully studied this. I have. But, sometimes, we eventually get to the point where we become fully convinced of something and our minds are made up. Right? And that's okay. Right?


Okay, I'm glad we can agree on that then. But, what does it indicate about the timing of what is described in Matthew 25:31-46? It says it will occur when Jesus comes with His angels, right? Is that not a description of the second coming of Christ? I believe it clearly is. Yet, if it's describing the Great White Throne Judgement, as we both believe it is, then we both know that occurs AFTER the thousand years and not before. So, help me understand why you apparently do not believe that what is described in Matthew 25:31-46 will not happen when Jesus comes with His angels at His second coming.


Where is this scenario indicated in Matthew 25:31-46, though?

I think both you and 1Tonne should say what translation you use. i.e. kjv, NIV, etc.

Because that can affect your views on a wide range of topics.

I use the kjv.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I think both you and 1Tonne should say what translation you use. i.e. kjv, NIV, etc.

Because that can affect your views on a wide range of topics.

I use the kjv.

I use the KJV and NIV mostly, but also look at other translations using biblegateway.com. And I use blueletterbible.org to look up the Hebrew and Greek words and their definitions and how they are used in other verses. Why would you limit yourself to just the KJV, Douggg? Do you think that Bible was originally written in King James English?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

@1Tonne

Here is the rapture timing view I have. I call it the anytime rapture view. Any time between right this very second and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple and commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:3-4.



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Jesus said the gathering of his people to himself would be AFTER the (great) tribulation of those days. It would be at the LAST trump, on the LAST day.
Paul said not to be deceived about this. The FIRST resurrection would not take place until AFTER the manifestation of the antichrist and AFTER the great falling away. There are just so many things wrong about the the pre-trib "rapture" theory. And the fact He tells us not to be deceived about it, and yet people are now intentionally being deceived despite the warning. It is almost like He knew this pre-trib rapture theory was going to happen, and made a special point to warn us about it. How many pre-trib "rapture" believers are going to lose faith when they suddenly find themselves in the middle of the great tribulation and question why they are there? This is exactly why Paul warned them.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus said the gathering of his people to himself would be AFTER the (great) tribulation of those days.

I am assuming that you are referring to the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31. If so, that gathering of the elect is referring to bringing all of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel. The Jews (Judaism) call that event the "final redemption".

kvj

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"From one end of heaven to the other" is a phrase taken from a promise God made back in Deuteronomy 30 to the children of Israel.

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

 

[1Tonne]

I believe he is still to return twice.
1st with only the martyrs and reign for 1000 years. Since it is only 1000 years, I believe that his reign also has an end. (This is when satan is set free for a short time)
Then he returns a last time at the last trumpet, which is the day of judgement, the last day. This is His eternal reign.

 

[Marilyn C]

I believe he is still to return twice.
1st with only the martyrs and reign for 1000 years. Since it is only 1000 years, I believe that his reign also has an end. (This is when satan is set free for a short time)
Then he returns a last time at the last trumpet, which is the day of judgement, the last day. This is His eternal reign.

I agree that the Body of Christ does not return to earth. it will be the martyrs who are resurrected but they are not the army. They never went to heaven to come back with the Lord. Jesus Himself tells us who comes with Him -

`For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels;...` (Matt. 16: 27)

``...the Son of Man ...when He comes in His glory, & the glory of the Father & of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

 

[1Tonne]

That may be correct.

But the way I read those verses is that they are His final coming. That is the last day where He will judge the world.
So, when He does come next, it will be with His martyrs and reign for 1000 years, then after satan's short time free, He will come again with His angels and gather everyone up to go to judgement. Very similar to Matt 25:31 which is His final coming. So, the day of Judgement and in this, He returns with His angels and gathers all to judgement.

 

[Marilyn C]

That may be correct.

But the way I read those verses is that they are His final coming. That is the last day where He will judge the world.
So, when He does come next, it will be with His martyrs and reign for 1000 years, then after satan's short time free, He will come again with His angels and gather everyone up to go to judgement. Very similar to Matt 25:31 which is His final coming. So, the day of Judgement and in this, He returns with His angels and gathers all to judgement.

So, what do you see God`s purposes are for creating nations, Israel and finally the Body of Christ?

 

[1Tonne]

We were all created to worship Him.
We were originally split up at the tower of babel to go populate the earth.
As for the believers, or body of Christ, Christ will reign over us.

What is your view?

 

[Marilyn C]

We were all created to worship Him.
We were originally split up at the tower of babel to go populate the earth.
As for the believers, or body of Christ, Christ will reign over us.

What is your view?

I agree we were all created to worship God. And God gives man responsibility as well -

The nations - to have dominion of the earth.
Israel - the rule the nations.
Body of Christ - to rule over all.

 

[1Tonne]

Israel - the rule the nations.
Body of Christ - to rule over all.

I agree with Israel to rule over nations. I believe that those who return with Christ, that is the martyrs, are from the 12 tribes of Israel. (So the 144,000) They rule with Christ for 1000 years.

Regarding the body of Christ ruling overall, do you have a scripture?

 

[Marilyn C]

I agree with Israel to rule over nations. I believe that those who return with Christ, that is the martyrs, are from the 12 tribes of Israel. (So the 144,000) They rule with Christ for 1000 years.

Regarding the body of Christ ruling overall, do you have a scripture?

Rev. 3: 21 `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...`

 

[David Kent]

@1Tonne

Here is the rapture timing view I have. I call it the anytime rapture view. Any time between right this very second and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple and commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:3-4.



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That is pure supposition.

 

[David Kent]

Correct. It was invented by John Nelson Darby. It's not biblical.

Close. Darby got it from Edward Irving, who said that he 1st preached on dispensationalism on Christmas day 1825 ( Morning Watch Magazine available on Google books) This teaching was confirmed by some of his "prophets" and later the date was given as June 1833. Irving held prophetic conferences in London one of which was attended by Lady Powerscourt who then held similar conferences in Powerscourt, Ireland which were attended by Irving and Darby. I think Darby was at one time considering if he should marry the Lady.